HL Deb 16 March 1896 vol 38 cc966-72

*THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFF moved— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying her to withhold her consent from the following portions of the Glamorganshire Education Scheme, Clause 90, sub-section (b):—The words 'of an undenominational character,' and the words 'in such a manner as may from time to time be directed by the school managers.' His Lordship said: My Lords, if this Motion is carried, it will bring the Education Scheme, for Glamorganshire into agreement, so far as the regulation of religious worship in hostels is concerned, with the schemes for three other Welsh counties which have received the approval of your Lordships. In the case of schemes for four Welsh counties there are no provisions for the regulation of religious worship in hostels. In three it is provided that the family worship shall not be exclusively denominational, so that of 11 education Schemes for Welsh counties, the Glamorganshire Scheme is the only one which is absolutely prohibitive of such worship. But this is not the only ground upon which I ask your Lordships to agree to this Motion. I do so because Clause 90, as it stands, will inflict a cruel, and, as I venture to think, an uncalled-for hardship on the children of Church of England parents, who may desire to enter an intermediate school as boarders, because it will deprive them of the privilege of listening, in the family worship of the hostel to which they may be admitted, to any one of those beautiful prayers in which they have been accustomed to join in public worship at their parish church, and many of them, I doubt not, in family worship in their own homes. I would remind your Lordships that the religious body upon whom it is proposed to inflict this hardship is the largest religious body in Wales, and that in my diocese, which embraces three-fourths of the county of Glamorgan, it is increasing with a rapidity probably without parallel in any other diocese. So that the sufferers, if this clause remains unaltered, are every day becoming more numerous. Your Lordships will be able to form some idea of the rate of this increase if I inform you that the number of candidates presented for confirmation in the diocese of Llandaff during the triennial period ending on the 31st of December, 1883, was 7,200, whereas in the triennial period ending on the 31st of December, 1894, it had reached 12,900, of whom it is more than probable that the great majority were just of an age to attend an intermediate school. My Lords, in asking you to remove this hardship, I am not asking you to do any injustice to the members of other religious communities. Indeed, it is my firm belief that if you accept this Motion your action, will receive the cordial approval of all the more serious and thoughtful amongst them, who are now to be found in vast numbers constantly worshipping in our parish churches and joining heartily in the prayers of the Church, of the beauty of which, and the devotional spirit which breathes through them, not a few have spoken to me in terms of the greatest admiration. It will serve to show your Lordships how the prayers and formularies of the Church are regarded by thoughtful and unprejudiced Dissenters if I state that three weeks ago I met the headmistress of an intermediate school near to my house, when she informed me that a Nonconformist minister had lately brought his daughter to be admitted to the school, and on her asking him to let her know the place of worship which he would wish her to attend he replied, "I should like her to attend the services at Llandaff Cathedral." Three weeks ago I opened a mission church in a populous parish in my diocese, when the three Nonconformist, ministers in the resident neighbourhood were all present amongst the worshippers. More recently, when holding a Confirmation in another parish, I was informed by the incumbent that a funeral was conducted a few days before my visit by a Nonconformist minister in his parish churchyard, when the prayers used at the grave were taken from the Burial office of the Church. My Lords, I believe that the views of these worthy men are shared by the more serious members of their flocks, and I would venture to ask if it is likely that they would object to the use by their children of prayers which they themselves so highly appreciate? This Scheme, therefore, in its present form, while naturally offensive to Church people, will meet with scant favour at the hands of those whom I suppose it is intended to gratify. My Lords, there have been periods in the history of your country when a fierce spirit of intolerance prevailed, and hatred of the prayers and formularies of the Church, and when those in authority did their utmost to stamp them out of existence. Macaulay, writing of the days of the Commonwealth, observes that:— It was then a crime for a child to read, by the bedside of a sick parent, one of those beautiful Collects which have soothed the griefs of forty generations of Christians. My Lords, these are the Collects of which the framers of the Glamorganshire county Scheme would forbid the use in the hostels of our intermediate shcools. It is possible that there may still be found a few persons in whose breasts such a spirit works, but I am persuaded that no such spirit will be found within the walls of your Lordships' House, and I am, therefore, satisfied that this Motion will meet with no opposition at your Lordships' hands.

The PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The DUKE of DEVONSHIRE),

said, tin right rev. Prelate, appeared to be under some misapprehension as to the meaning and effect of the clause, which was not very much to be wondered at, as its terms were not extremely clear. Clause 89 of the Scheme contemplated the establishment in connection with schools of boarding-houses, in which worship of a denominational character might be allowed. It provided that if persons in charge of such boarding-houses were un willing to exempt any scholar from attendance at any form of religious worship of which the parents disapproved, the managers were to make proper provision to enable such scholar to attend the school. Clause 90 contemplated the establishment, not of ordinary boarding-houses, but of hostels to the schools, which would be under the control and management of the managers themselves, and in that way be distinguished from boarding-houses which were to all intents and purposes, private houses. Clause 90, subsection (b), which the right rev. Prelate objected to, provide that in such hostel Christian family worship should be allowed, but as the managers were an undenominational body, such family worship must, he thought, necessarily be of an undenominational character. If the words were left out, there would still be nothing to prevent the school managers from regulating the family worship within their own hostel in any manner they might think fit, but if the words were left in, they were intended to be a security to Church parents on the one hand, against family worship which might be of a distinctive Calvinist, Methodist or Baptist character, and a security to Dissenting parents against religious worship in such hostels of a distinctive Church character. There was nothing in the provision intended to interfere with the denominational character of religious worship in the ordinary boarding-house. The omission of the words, therefore, seemed to be undesirable. Even if the words were omitted, the managers would still retain complete control over their own hostels, as it seemed to be necessary and inevitable that they should.

The ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said that this distinction between, hostels and boarding-houses was a completely new one. They had had 10 schemes before them and they had never heard of it before, and he was at a loss to know how hostels and boarding-houses could differ in principle upon such a matter as this. According to the Welsh Intermediate Act, clauses of this kind had no business in these schemes at all. In the Welsh Intermediate Act, it was settled that they should not take powers beyond the Endowed Schools Act, and in the Endowed Schools Act, there was nothing said about the religious training of boarders at all in any place nor was anything said in the Welsh Intermediate Act, beyond just the exemption of such scholars as objected or such as had objecting parents. As regarded hostels, it must be competent for different religious bodies to build hostels. There would be hostels founded, as they all had looked forward to and hoped, by Baptists, Methodists, and Roman Catholics, and certainly by the Church. Churchmen undoubtedly looked forward to building hostels for the reception of children belonging to their own body, and if this prohibition about hostels were universal, it would prevent the building of any such Church hostels. The Glamorganshire scheme itself, in Section 64, spoke of accommodation for boarders to be provided otherwise than from the general fund. It had always been in their minds that such accommodation would certainly be provided, not only in the way of hostels opened by private enterprise, but also by bodies founding hostels for their own purposes. This question had been three times before the House of Lords, and no distinction whatever had been drawn between hostels and boarding-houses. In the Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Merionethshire Scheme the House gave liberty to boarding-houses and hostels; they cut out the prohibition from both. The words now were: "Christian family worship shall be held daily in the hostel or boarding-house." What was the case with regard to the other county schemes for Wales? In Montgomeryshire, Pembrokeshire, and Carmarthenshire the prohibition was never inserted. There were 10 schemes in which this prohibition did not exist, and they were asked to apply it in the eleventh scheme.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, the right reverend Prelate, if he might say so, did not grasp the distinction sought to be established. There was nothing in the Act to prevent the founding of hostels of a denominational character, but hostels being under the direction of school managers would be, naturally, of an undenominational character. Therefore, a part of the speech of the right reverend Prelate who made the objection was a little beside the point. He said that under the scheme, as framed, it would be forbidden to read any of the beautiful Collects of the Church of England. He did not believe that view to be well founded. He did not believe there was anything in the scheme which forbids the use of the Collects. If that was so, the most effective part of his objection fell to the ground. There was only one other remark which he wished to make on this point. It was this; that the Archdeacon of Monmouth, who was a Member of the Joint Education Committee of Glamorgan, by whom the scheme was framed, cheerfully gave his assent to the clause to which the right reverend Prelate objected. He seemed to see a smile on the face of the right reverend Prelate. He did not know whether there was anything in the character of the Archdeacon to cause that smile. Their opinion was that there was nothing in this clause detrimental to the highest interests of the Church of England.

THE BISHOP OF ST. ASAPH

said, that they believed if the clause was allowed to remain as it wan now it would be applied to all hostels.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

said, the right reverend Prelate was mistaken on the point as to whether this principle had been decided in the House on a previous occasion. They were dealing, not with a hostel founded by any particular denomination, but one founded by managers themselves. He must say he failed to see that in a hostel controlled by an undenominational body they could direct that religious worship of a denominational character should be held in that hostel under their management.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON

said, if there was to be this Rule laid down there ought to be some very distinct permission given to the denomination to set up a boarding-house in which this provision would not hold good.

LORD HERSCHELL

said that was a different question, and he should say that the Collects were much broader and greater than a denomination. They might be gladly taken part in by those who did not belong to the Church of England.

Resolved in the negative.