Lords Sitting of 15 June 1896

EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY (TRANSFER OF PATRONAGE) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for transferring the right of presentation to the Professorships of Botany and Natural History in the University of Edinburgh—Was presented by the Lord Balfour; read 1a; and to be printed.—[No. 131.]

PARLIAMENTARY COSTS BILL [H.L.]
Moved to resolve:
That it is expedient that the Parliamentary Costs Bill [H.L.] be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament;
That it is expedient that the said Committee be the Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision Bills and Consolidation Bills—(The Lord Chancellor);
Agreed to: Ordered that a message be sent to the Commons to communicate these Resolutions, and to desire their concurrence.

METROPOLITAN COUNTIES WATER BOARD BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order.)
POST OFFICE CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Joint Committee made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow.
DIVORCE AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order); and Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday the 23rd instant.

BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA COMPANY (DR. JAMESON)
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON, in rising to ask whether, in view of the fact that the Parliament of the Cape Colony has undertaken an Inquiry into the recent events in the South African Republic,
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Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to institute the Inquiry announced in the Speech from the Throne without further delay, said: Her Majesty's Gracious Speech from the Throne contained a paragraph in which it was stated that—"A sudden incursion into the South African Republic by an armed force from the territories under the control of the British South Africa Company resulted in a deplorable collision with the Burgher forces. My Ministers, at the earliest possible moment, intervened to prohibit, through the High Commissioner, this hostile action, and to warn my subjects throughout South Africa against taking any part in aid thereof. The origin and circumstances of these proceedings will form the subject of a, searching Inquiry." That paragraph constituted so explicit a statement of the intention of Her Majesty's Government that no demand has been unduly pressed upon them up to the present time for any definite declaration as to the period at which the promised Inquiry would commence. Many things, however, have happened in South Africa since the 11th of February last, and only recently a step has been taken by the Parliament of the Cape Colony which has an important bearing upon this question. That colony has determined to appoint a Commission or a Committee for the purpose of inquiring into these events which so nearly affect them. I am not in the least inclined to take any exception to the course which the colony has adopted. It is obvious that the events to which I have alluded are calculated seriously to affect the Cape Colony, and, what is more important, perhaps, for the whole of South Africa, to seriously affect the relations between the British and the Dutch races in that part of the world, and therefore I think that it is extremely natural and quite proper that the Cape Parliament should have determined on their own behalf to make an Inquiry into those events. But no Inquiry by the Cape Parliament can supersede or take the place of the Inquiry which was promised in the Queen's Speech. The Cape Parliament most properly limit their Inquiry to the circumstances affecting the colony, and they do not propose to inquire into any matters affecting Imperial questions. Yet it must be obvious to all that many

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of the events of last December and January, in some of their aspects, affect Imperial questions, international law, and treaty obligations, and are therefore questions which can be dealt with by Her Majesty's Government alone; and especially at this time when we find persons who appear to think that they can disregard and set at nought the position of the Imperial Government in these matters, it is necessary that steps should be taken to show that there is no intention on the part of any English Government not to retain the control of these greater questions in their own hands, because the maintenance of their authority with regard to them seems to lie at the very root of every possible system of Imperial union. Therefore, it seems to me that the Inquiry of the Cape Parliament cannot supersede or take the place of the Inquiry which was promised by Her Majesty's Government. But the institution of an Inquiry by the Cape Parliament does materially affect the question of what is to be done here. It seems to me, on the one hand, that it would not be a very desirable thing that Her Majesty's Government at Home should appear to be waiting for the result of the Inquiry at the Cape. That might lead to many difficulties, and might possibly place Her Majesty's Government and this country in a somewhat difficult position. But beyond that, and perhaps of still more importance, is the consideration that it is extremely undesirable that we should have a series of these Inquiries folio wing one after the other and covering a very long space of time. It may be many months; we have heard, indeed, a still more lengthened period mentioned before the Inquiry into these matters in this country is likely to be concluded, and nothing could be more unfortunate in the present state of circumstances in South Africa than that these questions should be kept continually before the public mind, and that these lamentable events should be continually discussed with all the irritation that must attend such discussion, and, therefore, it is certainly to be greatly deprecated that this Inquiry should be postponed for a lengthened period. Therefore it is that I now venture to ask Her Majesty's Government when the promised Inquiry is likely to be commenced? ["Hear, hear!"]
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of SELBORNE): The noble Marquess has reminded your Lordships that Her Majesty's Government is under a pledge to institute a certain Inquiry into recent events which have occurred in South Africa. That was a pledge given by Parliament, and therefore it holds good. The whole of the noble Lord's remarks refer to the date at which that Inquiry shall commence. It is perfectly true that the Cape Colony have instituted an Inquiry of their own, and I entirely concur with the noble Marquess that that was a very natural course for the colony to take, and further, I entirely concur with him that that Inquiry does not release Her Majesty's Government from the pledge given to Parliament, nor does it affect the circumstances under which that pledge was given. But I would remind the noble Marquess, when he adduces the fact that this Inquiry is already taking place at the Cape as a reason why the Inquiry in England should be immediately prosecuted, that that Inquiry is held with closed doors, that the public is not admitted to it, and that, as I understand, the proceedings are not reported in the Press. It is not for me to say whether a Parliamentary Inquiry in this country could be held under similar conditions; that, at any rate, is a point which is not yet settled. Personally, I should very much doubt whether public opinion in this country would be satisfied with such a method of procedure. But if there is that distinction between the two modes of inquiry, the argument of the noble Marquess that the fact that the Cape Inquiry is now proceeding is a reason why we should take immediate action falls to the ground. Why is it that Her Majesty's Government have refused to institute this Inquiry immediately? They have done so because they are of opinion that it is quite incompatible with the judicial procedure of this country that a Judicial Inquiry can proceed pari passu with the fishing Inquiry that takes place before a Parliamentary Committee. Just look at the circumstances of the case. Is it not highly probable that one of the first witnesses that would be called before the Parliamentary Committee would be Dr. Jameson himself, and is it consistent with our ideas of justice that a man who

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is on his trial in another place should be cross-examined before a Parliamentary Committee, and that his replies should be used against him at the judicial investigation? Those are the reasons which have always induced Her Majesty's Government to decline to take part in the appointment of a Parliamentary Committee until the judicial proceedings are completed, and nothing has occurred recently to induce them to change their mind in that respect. I see by the evening papers—I have no official information on the point—that one definite stage has been taken in the judicial proceedings to-day, and therefore we may hope that it will not be long before those proceedings are finally completed. ["Hear, hear!"]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I cannot say that it appears to me that this very jejune answer of the noble Earl has advanced this matter very much. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] The subject is a very serious one, and I am glad to see that the noble Marquess (Lord Salisbury) is now present. As far as the Cape Inquiry is concerned, that Inquiry may have been concluded, and the Commission may have reported before any Inquiry takes place in this country. I am quite certain that Her Majesty's Government feel the extreme necessity for the Inquiry in this country being held as soon as possible, and the extreme inconvenience that may result from its being so long postponed. I do not for a moment contest what the noble Earl opposite says as to the advisability of prosecuting that Inquiry whilst the judicial trial of Dr. Jameson and those who are implicated with him in the raid is going on. I understand, however, that there is a reasonable probability that that trial will take place before very long, and that it will be finished within a reasonable time. We have been told in another place that the Inquiry is to be by means of a Parliamentary Committee, but I also hear—of course, not upon any authority—it very frequently stated that Parliament is to be adjourned or prorogued on the 15th of August in time for grouse shooting. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter, and cries of "the 12th."] Well, at any rate, in time for grouse-shooting. In these circumstances I should like to know what Her Majesty's Government contemplate doing in this
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matter. In the event I have alluded to, a Parliamentary Committee may not meet until the beginning of next year. Can anyone fail to regard such a probability as that as a very serious matter indeed, especially when we read every day in the newspapers what the state of feeling in the Transvaal is in reference to this question? It is most important that the complicity of the Chartered Company in these extraordinary and unheard-of proceedings should be fully inquired into. Anything more preposterous or more incredibly foolish than the action of Dr. Jameson it is impossible to conceive, and its only result has been to bring discredit upon the country and upon himself and his companions. I am not going to condemn the Chartered Company unheard, but we certainly ought to know how far they are responsible for Dr. Jameson's action. Everyone must feel that a full and searching Inquiry into the whole matter is needed for the sake of the honour and the interests of this country, and that it should take place with as little delay as possible. I want to know what are the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, and when the Inquiry will be instituted, so that we may judge whether there is to be an early and a prompt Inquiry, or whether it is to be put off indefinitely, which I am confident is not the desire of Her Majesty's Government themselves. ["Hear, hear!"]
THE PRIME MINISTER (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY): I am very sorry that I was accidentally late in taking my seat, and therefore did not hear what I have no doubt was the very eloquent indictment of the noble Marquess opposite.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: It was not an indictment. I asked a question.
THE PRIME MINISTER: I am still rather puzzled as to what point was directed the enormous amount of energy which has been exhibited by the noble Lord who has just sat down. I sympathise with his sentiments, but I do not know why so much indignation and force should have been brought to bear upon a matter so comparatively simple. The noble Lord was loud in praise of his own steady impartiality and of his resolution to abstain from anything likely to affect the trial of Dr. Jameson, but nevertheless he indulged in a pretty round denunciation of that gentleman. ["Hear,

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hear!"and laughter.] I do not think that it is quite fair to indulge in pretty round denunciation of a man when he is about to be placed upon his trial in a Criminal Court. That is a point which I confess impresses me rather more strongly than it does the noble Earl. Let us try to forget that Dr. Jameson has produced these lamentable effects, and that such great and important personages as President Kruger are concerned with them. Let us think of him only as being charged with having committed some offence against the criminal law in the neighbourhood of London. What should we think would be our duty in such a case, and how should we apply to him the well-known maxims and principles of English jurisprudence in criminal inquiry? We should say that the criminal inquiry must be conducted by the criminal tribunal to which it is committed, and that if anyone outside attempted, whilst the trial was going on, to discuss the merits of the evidence against Dr. Jameson, he would meet with a very discourteous reception from the presiding Judge, and might even feel the result of his indiscretion in a more forcible manner. If what I have supposed to be done by a private individual were done by a newspaper the same thing would occur. But if it were to be done by a Committee of the House of Commons or of the House of Lords, the Judge could not take the same step, because those bodies are protected by privilege. But the course would be just as improper if taken by those who are privileged as it would be by those who are not protected by privilege. Just consider the indecorum and inconvenience, or, I would rather say, the injustice of anything like parallel and simultaneous examinations of the case of Dr. Jameson before a criminal tribunal on the one hand, and before a Committee of one of the Houses of Parliament on the other. There are certain fixed laws of evidence which govern our criminal tribunals; there are certain things which can, and certain things which cannot be given in evidence. But that is not the case before a Parliamentary Committee. As far as I know, anything can be produced before a Committee of the Houses of Parliament,
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however little it belongs to the ordinary category of evidence. It can be allowed to be said, to be taken down, and published, and it may prejudice the defendant in the minds of the jury who have to try him. That is not justice—["Hear, hear!"]—and it is not more justice because this happens to be a very conspicuous case in connection with which very strong political passion has been aroused. I wish, without expressing the slightest sympathy with Dr. Jameson, or without saying what the result of Dr. Jameson's action will be, to extend to him precisely and impartially those protective principles of justice which are extended to every person who may be brought before the criminal tribunals of this country. "Oh, but" says the noble Lord, "the proceedings of the Courts are very rapid." I am surprised to find so much optimism on the part of one who has passed through so much. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] I am sure that this is the first time in his life that the noble Lord has prophesied rapidity of action on the part of the Courts of Law, and it is probable that he will not repeat the prophesy in the future. The very last quality you would predicate of a Court of Law is that they would get through their business with rapidity. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] To raise the question now and discuss what we are going to inquire into, how we are to do it, and under what circumstances we are to inquire, must affect the course of justice. Surely the noble Lord can wait until his prophecies are fulfilled. If this rapidity is going to characterise the Courts of Justice for the first time—[laughter]—he will not have to wait very long before his patience is rewarded. As soon as we can do so with justice, I shall be very glad to enter into the question, and I can assure the noble Lord that we are quite as anxious as he is that the full knowledge of what has taken place shall be imparted to the public. But I demur to making any announcement in either House of Parliament which will have the effect of prejudging the merits of the case of Dr. Jameson. That does not appear to me to be justice. As soon as the trial is over and the verdict given, I hope the noble Marquess will renew his eloquent indictment, which we shall then be prepared to meet. [Cheers.]
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: It is a source of gratification to us on this side of the House that the noble Marquess should have intervened in this discussion, because we were a little disappointed with the answer given by the Under Secretary for the Colonies. I thought that on a point of such enormous importance, which involves the honour, not only of individuals, but of the nation, it might have been possible on a Bench stuffed with Cabinet Ministers to find one who could reply to these questions with a fuller knowledge of the inner counsels of the Government than the noble Earl possesses. The noble Earl more than once said that be apprehended that such and such a view was the view of the Government. It was, I can assure the Government, much more satisfactory to have some information at first hand from the noble Marquess than to have the surmises of the Under Secretary. But I do not want to labour that point, because it appears to me that I am always the Village Hampden of this Assembly, pleading for its privileges here just as the noble Marquess pleads for its privileges out of doors. [Laughter.] Indoors, I am apparently the champion of the House of Lords. [Laughter and "Hear, hear!"] I think the noble Marquess has a little mistaken the point that my noble Friend near me wished to urge. There is no wish on this Bench, or among the Party which we represent, to prejudice in any way the trial of Dr. Jameson. ["Hear, hear!"] I am sure, however, that the noble Marquess will acknowledge this much—that until this matter is exhaustively sifted the directors of the Company, the Ministry, and the country itself will lie under an imputation which it will be difficult to remove. I am quite certain that nobody can have observed the course of foreign opinion with regard to this unfortunate raid—to which I think the noble Marquess, by the bye, made a somewhat flippant allusion on Friday—I say that no one can have watched the course of foreign opinion with regard to this raid, without seeing how greatly the feeling which finds expression in the phrase perfide Albion has been deepened by what has taken place. ["Hear, hear!"] Can anyone read what has been said by President Kruger himself, who, although he is a person against whom, no doubt,
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some ill-considered gibes have been, directed, is at any rate a person whom the Government have from time to time regarded as of some importance, and addressed in a tone of some supplication—can anyone who has read his statements deny that he considers that until this Inquiry is conducted the Government of this country and the governing people in South Africa will lie under some imputation? I really did think that a Government so equitable and great and powerful as we are given to understand the present Government are, would have taken the earliest opportunity that presented itself to free themselves before their own people and the world from such a suspicion as this. ["Hear, hear!"] But what is the course which the Government propose to take? They propose to wait for the conclusion of the trial of Dr. Jameson. The noble Marquess, doing somewhat less than justice to the celerity of the Courts of Law, hints that it may have something of the character of Warren Hastings trial, and that it may be indefinitely prolonged. But even supposing that the trial were to begin to morrow, and were only to last till the middle of August, when, as we are given to hope, we are to be allowed to pursue grouse instead of Parliamentary Measures, and supposing that we may expect that Parliament will be indulged with the usual Recess, then the earliest opportunity at which your Parliamentary Inquiry can begin is the beginning of next year. Could anything be more indefinite and dilatory than such a course as that? All through the remainder of this year this affair must go unexplored and unexamined without any authoritative verdict being based upon it in this country, and in the meantime, and on the special point alluded to by my noble Friend the noble Marquess near me, there will be a Parliamentary Inquiry held in South Africa, almost on the very scene of these exploits, which will sift these very facts which the Government profess themselves unable to inquire into until the early spring of 1897. I ask if there ever was such a travesty or mockery as this postponed Inquiry, instead of an early and exhaustive investigation prompted and urged by a Government which felt that we all to some extent must lie under some imputation until that Inquiry was carried out. No; we

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are first to try Dr. Jameson, then the Cape Inquiry is to take place, and then, perhaps, your stale and fly-blown investigation will be held, when nobody cares what you think, and when all the facts of the case have long been before the public. That is the moment which the Government will choose to justify themselves and ourselves against the imputation that lies upon us. [Cheers.]
House adjourned at Ten minutes past Five o'clock till To-morrow, a Quarter past Ten o'clock.