Lords Sitting of 20 July 1896

COMMISSION.
The following Bills have received the Royal Assent:—

Agricultural Land Rating.

Belfast Street Tramways.

Blackpool Improvement.

Blackpool and Fleetwood Tramroads.

Blackpool, St. Anne's, and Lytham Tramways.

Boyne Navigation Transfer.

Brighton Corporation (Water).

Burntisland Harbour.

Burton-upon-Trent Corporation.

Caledonian Railway.

Chamber's Estate.

Culter Water Order Confirmation.

Dalmeny and Kirkliston Water Provisional Order.

Diseases of Animals.

East Surrey Water.

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5).

Falmouth Rectory.

Fisheries Acts (Norfolk and Suffolk) Amendment.

Foyle College and Londonderry Academical Institution (Amalgamation).

Freshwater, Yarmouth and Newport Railway.

Gas and Water Provisional Orders.

Glasgow Parliamentary Divisions.

Great Northern Railway.

Great Western Railway (Denbighshire Railways).

Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension.

Kelty Water Provisional Order.

Kirkcaldy and Dysart Water.

Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway.

Lancashire and Yorkshire and London and North Western Railway Companies.

Leamington Corporation.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 9).

Local Government Provisional Order (Ports).

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Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 18).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 19).

Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas).

Local Government Provisional Order (Warrington).

London and North Western Railway.

London Brighton and South Coast Railway.

London Sea Water Supply.

Matlock Bath Gas.

Metropolitan District Railway.

Military Lands Provisional Orders.

Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas.

North British Railway.

North Cornwall Railway.

North Eastern Railway.

North Wales Counties Lunatic Asylum (Water).

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 4).

Pilotage Provisional Order.

Port Talbot Railway and Docks (Ogmore Valleys Extension).

Portsmouth (Borough) Water.

Portsmouth Street Tramways.

Preston Corporation (Ribble Navigation).

Sheffield Corporation Tramways.

Short Titles.

South Eastern Railway.

Swansea Harbour.

Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Waterford Corporation.

Weaver Navigation.

Yeovil Corporation (Water).

The Commissioners were the LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Halsbury), the EARL OF LIMERICK, and LORD BALFOUR (Secretary for Scotland).

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  ORKNEY AND ZETLAND SMALL PIERS AND HARBOURS BILL.
  Considered in Committee (according to Order); Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received Tomorrow.
  WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  LIVERPOOL COURT OF PASSAGE BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

MASSACRE NEAR KHARPUT (REPORTED).
LORD STANMOREasked the noble Marquess at the head of the Government a question of which he had given him private notice—namely, whether the Foreign Office had received any official intelligence with regard to the alleged massacre of 400 Christians quite recently in the neighbourhood of Kharput, or as to the events which were said to have recently taken place at Van, the accounts of which, to anyone who knew the state of matters there, were simply unintelligible. He asked the question because the official accounts given of these matters by the Turkish Government, stating, as they did, that no excesses whatever had been committed by the Turkish troops in any part of Asia Minor at any time, were manifestly unreliable; while the efforts of the Turkish officials to exclude information
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by a system of strict censorship over telegrams and the Post Office had been only too successful, so that the official Reports of Her Majesty's Consular officers afforded the only accurate and impartial accounts available. As such written Reports could not be received and published for some time, perhaps his noble Friend would not object to state whether the Foreign Office had received any telegraphic intelligence on these subjects. He would make no comment on the question except this—that, though really unavoidable, the necessary delay in the publication of such Consular Reports was to be regretted; for, when they were published, the incidents to which they related were at least half-forgotten, and they were little read. He was afraid, from the inquiries he had made, that comparatively few of their Lordships had read even the Report of Consul Fitzmaurice of the way in which last Christmas was kept in Urfa. He could commend it to their Lordships as more full of horror and interest than any sensational novel, and those who had read it would hope with him that the recurrence of such acts might be speedily rendered impossible.
THE PRIME MINISTER (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): I only received my noble Friend's notice a very short time ago, and I have not had time to send to the Foreign Office in order to ascertain whether there are any Papers such as he would wish to have in existence. I have no doubt we should have some information with respect to this case, but whether its details are abundant or not may depend upon a variety of accidents. I will send for the Papers and examine them, and see if there is anything which seems to me ought to be laid specially upon the Table. I need not say there is not the slightest objection to lay documents of this kind on the Table if Parliament desires to see them. I cannot pass away, without a note of doubt, from my noble Friend's intimation that it is desirable that these horrors should be known as speedily as possible, in order that they may attract the greatest possible amount of attention. If there were only Christians in the world, I should admit that might be the case; but the effect, of course, of a great amount of attention here is an equal amount of

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attention on the spot; and the effect of the Reports that are made, and the comments made upon these Reports in this country, is not, perhaps, all my noble Friend would desire when they get back to the Mahommedan population of Asia Minor. I do not think the expression of opinion here has any effect whatever in restraining the action of the wild population who are guilty of those horrors. Of course, what is said here may have the effect of increasing the intensity of feeling between Mussulman and Christian, and that intensity of feeling is precisely what, I think, every friend of humanity must wish to diminish as rapidly as he can. ["Hear, hear!"] I shall not refuse anything my noble Friend may wish to see, but I do not think it is desirable that we should lay too many papers of this kind on the Table, especially at a time when, unhappily, in other parts of the Turkish Empire there are causes enough of disturbance and every ground for increasing the apprehensions with which the relations of the two sections of population must be regarded.

YEOMANRY (LONG SERVICE MEDAL).
VISCOUNT GALWAYsaid that, in rising to ask the Question of which he had given notice, he hoped he might be permitted to think that the War Office had the welfare of the Yeomanry at heart. Certainly, during the last few years, the Yeomanry had made enormous improvements, and during no time more than the last eight years, since which time they had been taking their proper place among the reserve forces of the country, and were now on a mobilisation scheme. It would be impossible for this country to have a cheaper reserve force than the Yeomanry, because, for a Vote he thought, of under some £80,000 they got 10,000 men, with their uniform, arms, accoutrements, and horses, ready to turn out in defence of the country at a moment's notice. He would like to remind their Lordships that the long-service medal was issued to all Volunteers who had served for twenty years, and he ventured to think that the
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claims of the Yeomanry to a long-service medal were equally strong. Certainly the Yeomanry themselves felt they spent more money for the defence of the country than did the Volunteers. It might be said that during the time of their permanent training the Yeomanry received pay and the Volunteers did not, but he would remind their Lordships that during the time the Volunteers went out into camp, their commanding officer received a sum of money from the authorities which practically paid for their board, and, as they had their tents also, it might be said that during the whole of their training it cost the Volunteers nothing. In the case of the Yeomanry, they had to find not only lodgings for themselves, but also stabling and keep for their horses during the whole week of their training. The Yeomanry, too, in perfecting themselves in musketry training, which was so much desired, and which commanding officers were all anxious to facilitate, had long distances to go at their own expense. It was quite true that a few years ago 3s. 6d. was granted for one day for every private who got a third class in musketry, but everything else he had to pay, and the shooting was entirely at the officers' expense. He should like to know what reasonable objection could be urged against the scheme? He hardly liked to think that, in a small question like this, they would be met as they very often were by the authorities of the Treasury. It would cost very little, and he did not think the question of expense could really be raised as an objection. He was told that another objection was that, if they gave the medal to the Yeomanry, it could not be refused to the Militia. He had no objection, if the Government liked to give it to the Militia as well, but he would remind their Lordships that the Yeomanry were really of a different class to the men found in the Militia. The Yeomanry spent their own money during their training, and he did not think they could say the Militia often did that. During the whole of the year, too, the Yeoman had a horse at the service of the Government whenever he was called upon to serve the country; whereas, in the case of the Militia, even the man's boots were taken into store during the time he was not up for training: so

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that, in the matter of rapid mobilisation, the Yeomanry were far superior to the Militia. He did not wish, in anything he said, to disparage the zeal and efficiency of the other branches of the reserve forces. He only used this as an argument to prove that the Yeomanry were as equally entitled to the long-service medal as the Volunteers and the Militia. He would like to say that the grant of a decoration would be taken as a great compliment by those of the Yeomanry who had served so long and spent so much money. Their Lordships might be quite sure that no one would stay for 20 years who was not a keen soldier, and who was not interested in the force to which he be longed. About a year and a-half ago, in the time of the predecessor of the noble Marquess, a circular was sent to the commanding officers asking them if they thought their men would like this long-service medal. There was not sufficient time then for all the commanding officers to find out what was the feeling of the force, but he had now had letters or verbal messages from every one of the 38 commanding officers, to say that there was a great desire amongst the Yeomanry to have the decoration, and that they were confident that it would be really a great service and benefit to the force at large. He therefore bogged to ask the Secretary of State for War if Her Majesty's Government would take into consideration the strong claims of the Yeomanry Cavalry to a special long-service decoration and medal?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE): The suggestion which my noble Friend has made is one which has on several occasions been before the War Office, and it has certainly been considered in a spirit not unfriendly to the force of which my noble Friend is so conspicuous a member. But I am sorry to say that the conclusion has always been one adverse to the proposal which he has laid before the House. My noble Friend and the House, are no doubt aware that at present this long-service decoration is given only to the Volunteers. The Regular Army does not receive it, the Militia does not receive it, and the Yeomanry does not receive it, and I have no doubt the line that has hitherto been drawn has been drawn where you have a division between the forces which
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receive pay and those which do not. I have conferred with my military advisers upon this point, and they are unanimously of opinion that it would not be a wise thing to extend this decoration, which is specially a Volunteer decoration, to any of the other parts of the Army. And amongst other reasons which are given is the reason that in the case of the Yeomanry it is by no means clear that it is desirable to encourage a Yeoman to prolong his service for so long a time as the 20 years which would entitle him to the decoration. I can assure my noble Friend that I can concur with all that was said by him with regard to the credit due to the Yeomanry for the pains which that force has taken to render itself efficient during the last few years, and it is with great regret that I intimate to him a decision which I am afraid is not that which he desires.
THE EARL OF CORK, as on old Yeomanry Officer, desired to say that he entirely concurred in the remarks of the noble Viscount opposite, and at the same time to express his regret that the reply of the noble Marquess had not been more satisfactory. The noble Marquess based his objection to the granting of this decoration somewhat on the ground that it was not desirable perhaps that service in the Yeomanry should be too extended. With that remark he entirely agreed. He thought it was a great mistake to have too many old soldiers in a Yeomanry regiment. But there were classes of men in every Yeomanry regiment who were of great use not only in managing the affairs of the troops, but also in getting recruits. These were the quarter-masters and the sergeant-majors, and these were, he believed, the men who chiefly desired to have this decoration. He candidly admitted that a few years ago he was not so favourable to this decoration being extended to the Yeomanry service, but within the last two years his opinion had been entirely altered in consequence of these classes of men considering themselves that a kind of slur had been passed upon them when they saw their colleagues in the Volunteer force, perhaps in the same town, with the decoration that they were not permitted to wear themselves. He thought that even if it were necessary to extend the decoration to the Militia there would not be very great difficulty in doing so,

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for he did not imagine that many Militia Officers or men were in a position to obtain the Order, which he understood was only obtainable after 20 years' service. He would, however, ask the noble Lord to reconsider his decision, for he could assure him that the matter very much affected the Yeomanry service, which had for a long time been doing its best to maintain a condition of high efficiency, as proved by the reports of the inspecting officers.

JUDICIAL TRUSTEES BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, explained that it originated in proposals which he had more than once passed through the House for the appointment of a public trustee, and which he would have preferred to see carried out. But the present Bill was the result of a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and followed a system which had been successful in Scotland. Looking upon it as a step in the direction which he desired, and coming as it did from the other House with the assent of both sides, he desired to give it assistance, Its object was to appoint judicial trustees, to lessen the severity of the law against trustees, and to enable the Courts to give some remuneration to the judicial trustees, etc., appointed, who were to be under the supervision of the Courts, and, if no one else could be appointed, to appoint officers of the Courts to take upon themselves the duties. Also, in the event of an application being made to enable one of those judicial trustees to be appointed as an executor or administrator, as the case might be, where there was no one who would take that office upon himself. The old law had been very harsh indeed against trustees, and the result had been to create great difficulty in finding fit persons to take the office. Very great reluctance had been shown, in the circumstances, to undertake the duties of trustees, and the present Bill, he was certain, would not only make a great improvement in the existing law, but would supply a want which had for a long time been severely felt.
LORD HERSCHELLsaid he warmly approved of the provisions of the Bill with reference to the liability of trustees in cases of breach of trust, on whom the law had often pressed very unjustly. Trustees had acted for the most part gratuitously in those matters; still, the law had held them liable, although they might have acted honestly and reasonably, if upon the strict construction of the provisions, they could be said to have committed a breach of trust. We did not so deal with any other class of agents, and we had imposed upon trustees a liability which had undoubtedly been very severely felt, and which in many cases had operated unjustly. He was glad, therefore, that the noble and learned Lord had taken steps to remove what he thought was a serious blot on our law in that respect.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PUBLIC HEALTH (PORTS) BILL.
LORD HARRIS LORD HARRIS moved the Second Reading of this Bill. He said its object was to facilitate the action that had to be taken when a ship, on coming into port, was reported by the medical officer to be in an insanitary condition. At present it was necessary to move the local authority to send an order, but it had been pointed out to the Local Government Board that the Act of 1890—the Infectious Diseases Prevention Act—provided a far more simple procedure. The Board, therefore, had introduced legislation which would practically put a ship in the same position, as regarded treatment of this kind, as a house. That was the object of the Measure, and the result of it would be that, upon a medical officer presenting a certificate that the ship was in an insanitary condition, it would be sufficient for the clerk to the local sanitary authority to give orders to the captain to have the vessel cleansed at once. There was also a provision in the Bill that, should the captain not be able to do so, the local sanitary authority could undertake to do the work at its own expense.

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Read 2a (according to Order) and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

PARLIAMENTARY COSTS BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a Tomorrow.

CHAIRMAN DISTRICT COUNCILS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order); an Amendment made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
House adjourned at Five o'clock till To-morrow, a Quarter past Ten o'clock.