§ The Lord Chancellor may nominate any judge of the High Court with his consent to act for the time specified by the Lord Chancellor as an additional Land Judge for the purposes of the Record of Title (Ireland) Act, 1865, and the Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act, 1891, and the judge so nominated shall have during that time the jurisdiction of the Land Judge for those purposes.
VISCOUNT DE VESCImoved to substitute the following new clause in place of Clauses 22 and 23:—
(1.) A new Court shall be formed under the title of 'Land and Record of Title Court.'(2.) The office of Judicial Commissioner shall be abolished.(3.) The office of Lay Commissioner shall be abolished as vacancies arise.(4.) The present Land Judge, the present Judicial Commissioner, and a third Judge to be appointed or transferred from a division of the High Court shall be Members of the 'Land and Record of the Title Court.'(5.) They shall be members of the High Court.(6.) Subject to the sanction of the Treasury, laymen may be appointed as 'valuers' or 'assessors' to the Land and Record of Title Court, and to such divisions as may be decided.(7.) All duties, powers, and jurisdiction of the Land Judges Court, of the Land Commission, and under the 'Record of Title Act and Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act,' shall be vested in the 'Land and Record of Title Court.'35(8). The Lord Chancellor, the Judges of the 'Land and Record of Title Court,' and the Lay Commissioners, for so long as they shall hold office, shall have complete control over the dispatch and distribution of business in the respective divisions of the Court, the preparation of rules, the duties of the respective staffs, the carrying out of all the provisions of the Land Estates Court Acts, the Land Acts, the Land Purchase Acts, and the Record of Title Act and Local Registration of Title Act, and shall from time to time mate rules for all or any of these purposes.
§ He desired that a Court should be established which should command the confidence of all parties to land questions in Ireland. The Government proposed in their clause—Clause 22—to bring the Land Judge and the Judicial Commissioner into communication; but he did not quite understand whether the two were to sit together. It seemed rather to be a sort of "Box and Cox" arrangement, with his noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, acting the part of Mrs. Bouncer. Again, by Clause 23, the Lord Chancellor might nominate a Judge of the High Court to act as a Land Judge for the purposes of the Record of Title Act. But he understood that that Judge was to sit alone. In fact under the clause of the Government the different Judges did not form a Court sitting together, which was the object of his clause. It would be noticed that in the third sub-section of his clause, he proposed that the office of lay Commissioner should be abolished as vacancies arise. He did not say a word against the present holders of the office. But he thought it was not proper that appointments in connection with the administration of the Land Acts should be liable to be turned in the future to political appointments. Such appointments should be made in a way that could not be questioned by either the landlord or the tenant. In fact the main object of his Amendment was to establish a Land Court, the members of which would be men of the highest legal qualifications and especially of honour, and which would command the full confidence of all parties in Ireland.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELANDsaid the subject raised by the Amendment was one of the very highest importance, and of the very deepest interest, and he quite appreciated the large and serious considerations 36 which had operated in influencing his noble Friend to suggest the desirability of trying to have established in Ireland one tribunal to deal with all questions connected with land. The provision in the Bill was more moderate and modest and more suited he thought to take its place in a Bill, which could not deal as exhaustively as was needed with such a great topic as that of consolidating the various Land Courts. Clause 22 brought the Land Court and the Land Commission Court into closer relations than hitherto. The Land Judge of the Land Court, and the Judicial Commissioner of the Land Commission Court, were given the power of interchanging their duties and of thus helping each other in the difficult, arduous and responsible duties. The proposal of his noble Friend, was wiser and more comprehensive. It was one that had his sympathy, but it would need a very complex piece of legislation to make into one harmonious whole the different tribunals dealing with land in Ireland. He therefore hoped his noble Friend would be satisfied with bringing his idea forward, and not press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT DE VESCIrecognised that it would be idle to attempt to press the Amendment on the Government at this stage of the Session. He did not know whether they were to have any further land legislation—
VISCOUNT DE VESCIBut if the subject were again taken up by the Government, he hoped they would give their attention to the matter.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD CASTLETOWNmoved to leave out Sub-sections (1) to (4) inclusive, and insert instead thereof:—
(1.) From and after the commencement of this Act the Judicial Commissioner of the Irish Land Commission shall he a Land Judge of the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland, and the office of Judicial Commissioner of the Irish Land Commission shall he abolished. The Land Judges shall be ex-officio members of the Irish Land Commission, and all powers and duties now vested in or to be performed by the Judicial Commissioner shall he transferred to and vested in the Land Judges and each of them. The Judicial Commissioner shall hold his office by the same tenure, and be entitled to the same salary and pension as if this Act had not passed, and save when required by 37 the Lord Lieutenant in Council he shall not he bound to perform any duties of a Judge of the High Court other than those incident to the exercise of the jurisdiction conferred by the Landed Estates Court (Ireland) Act, the Land Purchase Acts, and the Land Law Acts.(2.) The Lord Chancellor and the Land Judges may make rules and from time to time vary such rules for the following purposes, namely:
- (a.) The distribution between the Land Judges of any duties capable of being discharged by a Land Judge.
- (b.) The distribution between the Land Judges and the Land Commissioners of any duties capable of being discharged by any member of the Land Commission under the Land Purchase Acts, but so that as far as practicable matters which are of judicial character involving any question of law shall be assigned to the Land Judges.
(3.) Subject to any Order made pursuant to Section nineteen of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1885, the duties imposed upon the Land Judges by the seventy-fifth section of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877, may be discharged by some one or more of the Land Commissioners as the Lord Chancellor and the Land Judges may from time to time by order direct, and with such limitations as may be imposed by such Order. An appeal from any Order made by a Commissioner in the discharge of such duties shall lie in the first instance to a Laud Judge.(4.) The general rules and orders which shall be in force at the commencement of this Act, either in relation to proceedings under the Land Purchase Acts, or to proceedings within the exclusive cognizance of a Land Judge, shall remain and be in force until varied by rules to be made as hereinafter provided.(5.) The Lord Chancellor and the Land Judges may make rules and orders, and from time to time vary such rules and orders, for the regulation of the practice and procedure as to all proceedings which would have been within the exclusive cognizance of the Land Judges if this Act had not passed, and as to all proceedings under the Land Purchase Acts as amended by this Act. Such rules shall provide for the payment into court of the proceeds of sales under the Land Purchase Acts, and for the distribution thereof amongst the parties entitled thereto.(6.) The Lord Chancellor and the Land Judges may from time to time make regulations for the discharge of any duties arising under such general rules by any officer of the Supreme Court now attached to the Land Judges, or otherwise employed in or about any jurisdiction, powers, and duties exercised by them, or by any officer of the Land Commission, and for the mutual relations between the officers of the Supreme Court and of the Land Commission. Such regulations shall provide that all such officers shall be employed in duties similar or analogous to those they at present discharge.The noble Lord said that in many respects his clause was technical, but he 38 would try to make its object clear. There must be absolute, not partial and halting, fusion of the offices of Land Judge and Judicial Commissioner, and as to land purchase proceedings the two Judges should be given all legal and judicial work, leaving the measuring of security, the sanctioning of advances and all ministerial work, including the work now done by the Land Judge as Receiver Judge as to managing estates to be distributed by rules amongst the Lay Commissioners. There should be, as was provided by the Purchase of Land Bill of 1890 and the Land Department Bill for 1891, one Court to which owners, whether unincumbered or incumbered, could go and put their estates or any portion of them on the market, or obtain declaration or certificate of titles, and to which incumbrancers might go to realise their charges. They should not be obliged, as at present, to go to the Land Judges Court to sell one part of their estates and to the Land Commission to sell the other. The title was common, and yet the charges override the whole estate which comprised head rents, land in lands, demesnes, house property, etc., as well as agricultural holdings. It was a great scandal and abuse that they or their incumbrancers should have to institute different proceedings in different courts to attain the same ends—sale or declaration of title. Under this clause, as proposed, all proceedings would be instituted by petition before the Land Judges. The schedules would show the lands capable of being sold to tenants, the lands or head rents which would have to be sold to the public and the lands as to which certificate of title was sought. He should not attempt to indicate what he supposed would be the procedure under this clause as laid down by rules to be made by the Lord Chancellor and the Judges. Probably an absolute Order would be made after due notice, as was the case now, on an owner's petition in the Land Judges' Court. Then the landlord would proceed to prove his title, and contemporaneously, the Land Judge to whom the matter was assigned would proceed to ascertain the tenancies, etc., and at the request of the owner refer the case to the Land Commissioners to inquire and report as to the character of the tenanted estate, and as to the amounts which the Treasury 39 might advance. Then the owner would be free to enter into agreements with his tenants and the sales would be carried out without delay, the purchase money being placed to the credit of the matter in the Court books and distributed according to the rights of the parties and with the proceeds of the sales, if any, of lands or property not the subject of Government advances. This was a very technical question, but he had tried to put it as clearly as he could. His object was solely simplification, and that the sale of estates, whether encumbered or unencumbered, should be carried out as quickly as possible. The ultimate solution of the Irish land question was facility of sale. He had endeavoured to make sales as simple and easy as possible, and it was by the fusion of the Land Judges Court and the Land Commission that he desired to attain that end.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELANDsaid the proposal of his noble Friend to graft on to Clause 22 a series of important conditions indicated that he had closely studied the subject, and had brought to the matter great knowledge of a highly technical character. The noble Lord had shown great mastery of detail, a considerable knowledge of practice, and he had presented his case as well as it could possibly have been presented. But the clause of the Bill as it stood was the result of a great deal of consideration. It was not from ignorance of the matter or interest in these topics that the clause was as narrow as it was. But the question was immensely large and very complicated. It dealt with a great number of official and other interests and it would be simply impossible to recast all the machinery and arrangements embodied in the clause and apply themselves to consider another scheme, no matter how their minds were interested and attracted by the care and consideration that obviously had been given by the noble Lord to the elaboration of his various suggestions. He trusted that the noble Lord would be satisfied with the Government proposals and allow them to pass in the shape in which they had presented them.
§ LORD CASTLETOWNsaid he was much indebted to his noble and learned Friend for what he had said about his 40 feeble effort to amend the Government clause, but he hoped that before Report he would consider whether some portions of the proposed clause could not be embodied in the clause in the Bill.
§ LORD CASTLETOWNsaid he thought portions of the clause would fit in with the Government clause, and that the noble and learned Lord would find there were certain advantages to be gained by its adoption. He would not press the clause, but he trusted Lord Ashbourne would consider it.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn; Clauses 22 and 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
THE EARL OF MAYOmoved the insertion of the following clause after Clause 23:—
Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Land Commission that clerks who have served for ten years and upwards in estate offices in Ireland are deprived of their appointments through the operation of land purchase promoted by the State, the Land Commission may appoint such clerks to the permanent staff of the Land Commission Office, notwithstanding that their age shall exceed the limit of age in the prescribed regulations: Provided that they produce satisfactory evidence that they possess the requisite ability to discharge the duties of clerks in the Land Commission Office, and are also qualified in respect of health and character; and such clerics shall he paid such salaries and superannuation allowances as the Lord Lieutenant with the consent of the Treasury may determine.He said he moved the insertion of the clause to draw attention to a class of men who by the action of land-purchase in Ireland had found themselves in a difficult and unpleasant position—the class of land agents' clerks, who, when the estate was sold, were thrown out of employment. He knew the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was in sympathy with these men. The action which he proposed was not without precedent, for when the State took over the telegraphs a great many of the telegraph clerks employed by the public companies were taken into the employment of the State. Mr. Justice Bewley had admitted the hard case of these estate agents' clerks. They knew their 41 business as well as the telegraph clerks did of whom he had spoken. One of them had been appointed to the permanent staff of the Land Commission Office. He moved the insertion of the clause that he might at least obtain words of sympathy from the Government with regard to these men. By the facilitation of the purchase of their estates by the tenants, a great many estate agents' clerks would entirely lose their appointments, and he submitted that they were entitled to consideration.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid the House would readily accord the sympathy the noble Lord asked them for to these gentlemen, many of whom no doubt had been deprived of their employment under trying circumstances. He wished it were in his power to give something to the noble Earl more solid than sympathy, but he was afraid he could hold out no hopes of these estate clerks being introduced into the Civil Service regardless of the regulations of the Service as to age and other matters, and he was bound to tell the noble Earl that he had great doubt whether even without those difficulties this clause, which dealt with salaries and superannuation allowances to be paid with the consent of the Treasury, was a clause that could properly be introduced into the Bill. He was afraid, therefore, they must leave the matter where it stood.
§ Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD CASTLETOWNmoved to insert the following new clause before Clause 24:—
(1.) When at any time after the passing of this Act a land bank, with whose constitution and security the Treasury and the Land Commission may be satisfied, is established in any province or county of Ireland, the Lord Lieutenant in Council may, with the consent of the Treasury, authorise the issue by the Land Commission to such land bank of guaranteed land stock for such amounts and at such times as may be determined for the following purposes:
- (a.) To enable tenants to acquire by purchase and with the assistance of such land bank the ownerships of their holdings.
- (b.) To enable advances to be made to the owners of estates for the discharge of incumbrances affecting the same pending the sale of such estates to occupying tenants thereof, or for the purchase of such estates or parts of estate for the purposes of re-sale.
42 - (c.) To enable advances to be made to tenants' purchasers for the improvement of their holdings.'
(2.) Such advances shall not exceed the provisions of the guarantee fund which may at such times be applicable under the provisions of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, to the county or counties forming the district in which such land bank may be established.(3.) Rules for carrying the provisions of this section into effect shall be made by the Land Commission with the approval of the Treasury and the Privy Council, and such rules shall provide for the manner in which such advances shall be secured and for the approval of the Land Commission of all contracts for sale or for advances made by the said land bank.(4.) Such Order in Council shall not take effect unless confirmed by Parliament if a petition against it is presented to the Lord Lieutenant in Council, and the petitioner appears and proceeds therewith.The noble Lord said the object of the clause was simply to empower the Lord Lieutenant in Council to promote the creation of what were called in foreign countries Land Banks. The object of land banks was to facilitate and improve the status of credit in the countries in which they were established. The clause itself was in no way contentious, and he was convinced that it would pass the House of Commons without difficulty. The scheme was safeguarded in every possible way. It must receive the permission of the Lord Lieutenant in Council and that of the Treasury to become law, and be ruled by the Land Commission as a matter which would come within their cognisance. Land Banks had been established for many years on the Continent. They had existed in Germany for 150 years, and for a long time in Austria, Switzerland, and, to a limited extent, in Italy, and in all had been absolutely successful. They had almost revolutionised the land system in those countries, had made their sales simple and easy, and helped tenants who had become fee simple owners, and in many instances had assisted landlords in carrying through sales. The banks, if promoted, would bridge over the time referred to by Lord Lansdowne between the vesting order to the tenants and the deposit money advanced by the Treasury and held by the High Court to the landlord, the seller. Although this was a technical subject, it was really very simple. By the kindness of the Prime Minister 43 details upon it were obtained some years ago by Her Majesty's representatives abroad and published in a Blue-book. There was a consensus of opinion that land banks were absolutely invaluable in the countries in which they existed and in favour of their creation in Ireland or even in England. They were a Continental idea, but sometimes we could learn from other people. To let the idea take a concrete form they could work it out in any way they chose. The Lord Lieutenant could make arrangements and rules to secure the proper working of the banks, and the Treasury could do the same. He appealed to the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill to adopt this clause. There was nothing mandatory or obligatory in the matter, but it was perfectly permissive. He urged the same proposal in their Lordships' House in 1884; he had urged it since, and every step of their land legislation had tended towards the creation of land banks. Surely it was possible to create in Ireland what had answered so well under analogous circumstances in Continental countries. The clause would not overload the Bill, it would not be contentious, and it would prove of immense value in the near future, when they were carrying through sales. ["Hear, hear!"]
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEshould certainly not say a syllable in disparagement of the proposal of the noble Lord, who was correct in saying that these land banks had worked exceedingly well in Continental countries. He confessed he saw no reason whatever why a similar experiment should not be tried, and tried with success, in Ireland. ["Hear, hear!"] He was afraid, however, be could not encourage the noble Lord to press this clause. The Bill was already a long and intricate Measure, and it had been very considerably altered during its progress through their Lordships' House. He thought it would be of doubtful policy to add to its provisions a new one of this kind, and he hoped the noble Lord—who had often done good service in ventilating proposals affecting the treatment of land in Ireland, some of which had been subsequently adopted with excellent results—would be content with having placed this proposal on the 44 notice Paper and explained it to the House. ["Hear, hear!"]
LORD TEMPLETOWNmoved, in Sub-section (1), after the word "made," to insert the words "before or." He contended that the acceptance of the Amendment would benefit all those tenants who in the past had purchased their holdings. They had been anxious in Ireland to make purchase as great a success as possible, and they were anxious that those who had purchased should have no ground whatever to regret having done so. There was no question that if the reductions in rent went on, as they had done under the second term, they should have this state of things arising—that the tenants whose rents had been reduced would before very long be in a better financial position with regard to the land than those who might purchase under this Bill, and more especially those who had purchased before its passing. In these circumstances it would be fair to remove any ground of complaint the tenants who had purchased in the past would have, and his Amendment would have the effect of bringing those tenants into an equally good position with those who might purchase under this Act. This would be a concession not to the landlords but to the tenants of Ireland. He would quote the case of a reduction of rent which would put his point clearly before their Lordships. There was a tenant whose old rent before 1881 was £10. The rent in 1881 was reduced from £10 to £5 10s. In the second term, which was decided lately, in the county of Armagh, the rent was further reduced to £4, or a total reduction of 60 per cent. on the old rent. It was very difficult to anticipate what the next reduction might be 15 years hence, but if it continued at the same rate it must be wiped out altogether. Such a tenant would, therefore, be in the position that he would pay no rent, while the man who purchased would have to go on paying his purchase annuities to the end of the period. He begged to move the Amendment.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid it was impossible for him to accept the Amendment. The clause had been carefully considered in all its financial bearings, and they could not 45 alter the financial machinery at this stage. He must also add that the noble Lord seemed to have overlooked the point that very material relief was already given under the clause, in respect of advances made before the commencement of this Act. The fifth sub-section provided for such advances under conditions which were certainly not illiberal.
LORD TEMPLETOWNsaid his point was that the tenants who had purchased should be put in exactly the same position as those who were about to purchase.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD CASTLETOWNwould not press his Amendment after the kind tone of the speech of his noble Friend, but he would ask the noble Marquess to consider the advisability of bringing in a short Bill next year to promote the creation of these banks, which, as it would be non-contentious, there should be no difficulty in passing. ["Hear, hear!"]
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEwas afraid he could not go any further than he had done in the statement he had just made.
§ Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYmoved an Amendment providing that, in the case of every advance under the Land Purchase Acts made after the commencement of this Act, the purchase annuity should be recalculated every five years instead of every 10 as proposed in the clause. He observed that ever since he had owned property in Ireland he had endeavoured to promote the system of land purchase by enabling the occupier to become the owner of his holding upon terms agreeable to himself and his landlord, and without any risk to the State. He was glad to see that in this Bill the Government had done what they could to remedy the defects in the Land Bill of 1891 so as to make it more attractive to owners to sell and tenants to buy. On this ground he welcomed the proposal to give a reduction of rent every 10 years to those tenants who had bought. But he thought that 46 tenants who bought 10 years ago might have a grievance, and might consider that had they united for these 10 years they need not have paid so high a price as they had done. He would in these circumstances appeal to the Government to alter the decade which had been fixed in the clause to a quinquennial term of years. To his mind such a change would greatly add to the attractions of the Rill, without any risk either to the taxpayer or the Treasury. In theory it sounded plausible to the tenant to tell him that if he bought he obtained a reduction of rent, and at the end of 49 years would become the owner of his holding. Rut, regarding the matter from a practical point of view, he did not know how many of their Lordships would look forward with any degree of satisfaction to the; positions they would be occupying in 49 years' time; consequently he did not wonder if the Irish tenant looked upon the 49 years as a period with regard to which he need not give much consideration. What he would like would be, if possible, an immediate reduction, and, if he could not have that, as rapid a reduction as possible in the payment of rent, whether it was to the State or to his landlord. He thought they would make this scheme of purchase far more attractive by giving a reduction every five years and lengthening the term at which the purchaser would become in the future the owner of the holding. That was the reason which had induced him to move the Amendment.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid that he was told that an Amendment similar to the present one was moved in another place by a private Member and that it was ruled out of order because it altered the conditions of the security given in the Rill. He apprehended that if that argument applied in another place it would apply still more strongly in their Lordships House. Rut he should like to put it to the noble Marquess whether, upon its merits, his proposal was one upon which it would be desirable to insist. In the Rill the annuity payable by the tenant was recalculated at intervals of 10 years, the tenant being, at each recalculation, credited with the amount of the capital which had been replaced by the 47 operation of the sinking fund. The noble Marquess proposed, as he understood, to substitute for periods of 10 years periods of five years. It occurred to him that this would enormously add to the trouble of those officials upon whom would be thrown the duty of making these somewhat laborious calculations, nor, as he understood the matter, would the advantage to the purchasing tenant really be very material. He hoped the noble Marquess would not ask the House to divide on his Amendment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYsaid he had not the slightest intention of dividing the House. He merely held out the suggestion in order to make the scheme, with which he heartily concurred, more attractive that it was at the present moment. If the Government could have seen their way to give reductions at earlier periods than those contained in the Bill, he was sure they would have never regretted it.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.