Lords Sitting of 27 May 1895

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT (1894) (STOCK TRANSFER) (No. 2) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons.
  LORD'S DAY ACT.
  The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed for the use of the Members of this House (No. 133); but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to Members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
  COUNTY COURTS (RIGHT OF AUDIENCE) BILL.— [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to the right of audience of solicitors in County Courts—Was presented by the Lord Macnaghten; read 1a; and to be printed. [No. 134.]
GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.— [H.L.]
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LLANGOLLEN) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONGBENTON) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WILMINGTON) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (TOTTENHAM) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed—The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (CROYDON) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
  EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Committed—The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT (1894) (STOCK TRANSFER) (No. 2) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed.—[No. 135.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PRO VISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.—[No. 136.]
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Order of the Day for the consideration of Standing Order No. XXXIX. read, and discharged; and Standing Orders Nos. XXI. and XXXIX. to be considered to-morrow, in order to their being dispensed with for that day's Sitting.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

  MUSEUMS AND GYMNASIUMS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  *THE EARL OF MEATH*THE EARL OF MEATH rose to move the Second Reading of this Bill, the object of which, he explained, was to add to and extend the scope of the Museums and Gymnasiums Act, 1891, and also to extend to provincial County Councils the powers at present possessed by the London County Council and a large number of urban sanitary authorities throughout England and Ireland. The Bill is a purely permissive one, and contains no compulsory clauses. It originates no novel principle and creates no new precedent. It could in no sense be said to be framed in the interest of any political Party, for although the original Act which it proposed to amend could claim a Conservative parentage, this measure has no other objects in view than those social ones which were equally desired by both political Parties, namely, the health, happiness, and the moral improvement of the people. The Act of 1891 empowered the Urban Sanitary Authorities of England and Ireland, with the exception of the Metropolis, to erect and maintain museums and gymnasia which were to be thrown open to the public during certain portions of the week. This Act was a most useful one. It was evident that as the population became more and more concentrated in cities, and, owing to circumstances outside its control, was gradually withdrawn from the country, the masses in our large towns would grow up weak in physique, ignorant of Nature, and divorced from her healthful influences. Such was evidently the opinion of the Legislature when it passed the Act of 1891. One would have thought, however, that the larger the town the greater would have been the influence hurtful to health, and consequently greater would have been the need of gymnasia for the inhabitants. But, for some unaccountable reason, the largest city in the Kingdom, namely, the Metropolis, with a population of 4,000,000, was excluded from the operations of this Act, whilst it could be put in force by the authorities of the very smallest Urban Sanitary District in England and Ireland. The forty District Boards and Vestries of the Metropolis, some with a population of some hundreds of thousands—for example, Islington with
  328
  319,000—did not possess this privilege. It was true that under the Baths and Washhouses Act of 1878 the Commissioners appointed by a Vestry might in a roundabout way secure a makeshift gymnasium for five months in the year. But in order to obtain this they must first of all build a swimming bath, whether the district was in need of one or not, and so construct it as to render it capable during these five months of being turned into a gymnasium. In small districts this might be a useful device to effect the double purpose at a low expenditure, but in large cities, where both swimming baths and gymnasia were needed all the year round, or in smaller districts where only a gymnasium was wanted and not a bath, it seemed ridiculous in the Legislature to compel the Vestries to erect a Siamese-twin institution, half bath, half gymnasium, which having come into existence under the weakening influence of a divided purpose, must necessarily partake of the imperfection natural to compromises It was also true that gymnastic apparatus could be and had been erected in the open air, in public parks and recreation grounds. But in a climate like ours it was quite impossible to use it during a greater portion of the year. He therefore proposed by this Bill to remedy this defect in the Act by extending the operation of the Museums and Gymnasiums Acts of 1891 to the Metropolis and Woolwich. This was effected by Sections 5, 6, 7, 8; but before doing this, by Sections 2 and 3, he proposed to extend the scope of the Act of 1891, and he believed to improve it by including Winter Gardens amongst the institutions which Urban Sanitary District Authorities might erect and maintain. This Bill was introduced with the sanction and approval of the Metropolitan Public Gardens Association, a voluntary society which had established over 80 public gardens in the Metropolis, and the experience gained by this organisation had shown that owing to the inclemency of the British climate there was a considerable portion of the year during which the public were unable to enjoy the recreation grounds maintained at their expense. It was, therefore, desired to give power to Urban Authorities to erect and maintain buildings filled with shrubs, plants,

  329
  and flowers, capable of being warmed and lighted at night and plentifully supplied with seats, where in winter the public would enjoy the pleasure of a garden without suffering inconvenience from the weather. It was possible that in public parks such buildings might legally be erected and maintained as greenhouses or conservatories; but parks were usually on the outskirts of towns, and in severe or wet weather these buildings would be practically useless to the larger part of the population, especially to the women and children. What was needed was that these buildings should be erected not so much within the larger parks, as that they should be within easy distance of the homes of the people, bright, cheerful, warm places of resort, where the poorer classes could of an evening bring their wives and children. By Section 4 it was proposed to render illegal the erection of such buildings in public open spaces of 10 acres or under, inasmuch as it was felt that however useful these winter gardens might be, it was of greater importance to the people that these small air lungs in large cities should be carefully preserved intact. By Section 9 it was proposed to place County Councils on an equality with other local bodies with regard to the provisions of the Open Spaces Act. County Councils having been formed since the passing of the Open Spaces Acts, these bodies were riot named in them. The London County Council was the only one which could put the Open Spaces Acts into force, owing to its being the inheritor of the powers conferred upon the late Metropolitan Board of Works, a body which was expressly mentioned in the Open Spaces Act. It was very important that the County Councils should, like the London County Council, have the power under the Open Spaces Acts of assisting Local Authorities to provide parks and recreation grounds should they desire to do so. Under the Acts, a municipal body might purchase and maintain a park within and partly without or entirely without its district. As a matter of fact the majority of open spaces were situated on the outskirts of towns, and were visited in large numbers by those who contributed to the county but not to the municipal rate. It was only right, therefore, that if the County Councils desired it they should be able
  330
  to assist towards the purchase and maintenance of such outlying parks. An even stronger case could be made out in regard to the two County Councils of Middlesex and Surrey, within whose borders resided large numbers who enjoyed the more distant metropolitan parks without contributing to their support. These County Councils would doubtless gladly assist if they had the power, and he believed that in the case of the Middlesex County Council, the Metropolis would now have been enriched by the possession of an additional large and beautiful park if only it had possessed the power of assisting the London County Council when it proposed to purchase it. He should not detain them any further, as he hoped he had made clear to them the scope and objects of this Bill. He trusted that this humble, but he hoped useful, measure might commend itself to their Lordships' judgment, and that owing to its uncontroversial character, and perhaps even to its apparent insignificance, it might pass unopposed not only through their Lordships House, but through the other House of Parliament, and that before the close of the Session might ultimately be transformed into law, adding one more to the many useful social measures which had emanated from their Lordships' House, proving, if proof were needed, the deep and practical interest which their Lordships took in all matters that tended towards the health and happiness of the people. He begged to move the Bill be now read a second time.
  LORD HALSBURYdid not think that the measure was either uncontroversial or insignificant. Besides, the Bill proposed to initiate taxation for the objects at which it aimed, and therefore its introduction in this House was a serious departure from all Parliamentary procedure.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCIIULL)regretted to say that he had not studied the provisions of the Bill to enable him to express an opinion upon it.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT (The Earl of ROSEBERY)said, the legal point raised by Lord Halsbury made it clear that the Debate ought to be adjourned for the further consideration of the Bill.
  Debate adjourned.

  JUDICIAL COMMITTEE OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords—I rise, in pursuance of notice, to call attention to the constitution of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. But it will not be necessary for me to detain your Lordships at any length on the subject, nor do I think it will be found that the Bill is in any respect of a controversial character. By the Act under which the Judicial Committee came into existence, two Judgeships were reserved for those who had held judicial offices either in India or the Colonies. To those two Judgeships a salary of £400 a year apiece was reserved, and by the last Act bearing on the subject, which was passed, I think, in the 50th and 51st Victoria, it was made competent for one of the Judges to draw both salaries. But except for that provision the constitution of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council laid down in the early years of William IV. has hitherto been held to be sufficient for external needs of the Empire in the way of judicial tribunals. I do not introduce this Bill with any idea of disparaging the work of the Judicial Committee. It would be unbecoming and presumptuous for me to praise that work, but there is no doubt that the Judicial Committee has in the highest degree earned the confidence of the Colonies, and that is proved by the increasing figures of the number of appeals which are laid before that body. But, my Lords, it seems perfectly clear that it would largely extend the satisfaction felt by the Colonies with that tribunal, and would largely increase their interest in its proceedings, if they were allowed a larger admixture of Judges versed in Colonial law and conversant with Colonial customs and practices than could at present be the case. At the present moment there is in the Judicial Committee no Judge having Colonial experience. There is one Judge with Indian experience, and in that quality he draws both the not excessive salaries assigned by the Act of William IV. That is how the matter stands—one Indian Judge and no Colonial Judge. But how do the figures stand in regard to appeals? I hold in my hand the figures relative to the number of Indian appeals from 1876 to the present time. It is not necessary,
  332
  I think, to go through all those years to prove the gradual increase of Colonial as compared to Indian appeals. I will take the year 1879 as the point of departure. In that year there were 48 Indian and 19 Colonial appeals. In 1889 there were 39 Indian and 26 Colonial appeals. In 1894 the positions were altogether reversed. The Indian appeals, while maintaining their figures, had sunk into relative insignificance as compared with Colonial appeals, for in that year there were 25 Indian and 35 Colonial appeals. Under these circumstances, I think it is not unreasonable that the Government, and also the Governments of the larger Colonies, should feel a wish that there was a larger introduction of the Colonial element into the tribunal which acts as the Supreme Court of Appeal for all the external Empire. That feeling has already been made manifest in the Federal Conference of Australasia which met at Hobart last year, and at which the following resolution was passed unanimously:—
  "That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty the Queen, praying that Her Majesty may be pleased, in view of the special features often presented by Australasian appeals, to appoint a member of the Judicial Committee of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council who has experience of Australasian affairs."
  That is the only official utterance that has been made, so far as I know, on the subject. But I do happen to know from at least one of the other greater self-governing colonies that it would be a very welcome feature of the legislation of this country if we were able to enlarge the sphere of this tribunal by introducing into it a greater number of colonial Judges. I would further point out this, that there are a great number of circumstances peculiar to the colonies. The conference at Hobart gave as an example the squatters' industry, which, in their opinion, an English Judge, with purely English experience, is scarcely able to give sufficient effect to. And there is this further to be said, that in two, at least, of our greatest colonies systems of law are administered which are distinct, and almost alien, I might say, from the system of law administered in this country or in India. The Cape is mainly administered, as I understand, under the old Civil Law, and in

  333
  Canada the old French law largely prevails as it existed in France before the first Revolution; and, I think, if only on these grounds—putting apart the number of colonial appeals, and putting apart the desire that we must all of us feel to make this Imperial tribunal more truly Imperial in its constitution—we must feel that, as a matter of expediency, and almost as a matter of necessity, it is advisable to take some action in this matter. My Lords, that is all the preface that I intend to make, and, indeed, the Bill is much shorter than the preface. The Bill consists of one operative clause, which is mainly to this effect: that if any persons who have held judicial office in the Supreme Courts of the Dominion of Canada or the Australasian Colonies, as set forth in the Schedule, should be sworn, within certain limited numbers, to the Privy Council, they shall be members of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. At present, I should explain, if a colonial Judge were, by any accident, sworn on the Privy Council, he could not become a member of the Judicial Committee except under the limitations imposed by the Act of William IV.—two members with two very small salaries. Our proposal, then, is that, without making any financial provision for the maintenance of these judicial members, we should give facilities to the great self-governing colonies, if it be practical from their point of view, to have members of their Supreme Courts admitted as members of this judicial tribunal. I have no doubt that two, if not three, of the great groups of colonies will, at a very early moment, take advantage of this provision, and I venture to hope that on our side there will be no word of cavil with respect to the general principle of the Bill. I do not disguise from myself or from your Lordships that in promoting this Bill I have not merely at heart the efficiency of a Court for which we all have respect, but I do hope that in adopting the Measure you will be ading one more link to the golden chain of empire, and that link not the least efficient.
  *LORD BELMORE,as one who, though some time ago, was intimately connected with one of the Australian Colonies, gladly welcomed the Bill, which was one he had long felt would be extremely gratifying
  334
  to the Colonists, and would greatly conduce to the public advantage.
  LORD HALSBURYonly desired to say something in order to get rid of the notion that he did not cordially agree with what the Prime Minister had said. He was not disposed to utter any word of cavil, and any words on questions of detail would be more appropriately used on another occasion. All he would say at present was that he thought it would be a great advantage to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that it should ensure the increased confidence of the Colonies. It might, perhaps, partake of detail, but Roman-Dutch law was administered in the Cape, and, if he gathered rightly, the Cape was not one of the Colonies included.
  THE EARL of ROSEBERYsaid, that that was a stupid omission. He did not mention the Cape; it was merely an omission.
  *LORD KNUTSFORDexpressed his entire concurrence in what had been said as regarded the principle of the Bill; and really, as there was no finance question raised, he agreed practically with the details. He might, however, point out that, as no salary was to be paid to the Chief Justice or other Colonial Judge who was to act on the Judicial Committee, it rather resolved itself into some person being appointed to the Privy Council who had been a Judge in the Colonies, but had retired and was living here, or else someone who was able, consistently with his judicial work in the Colony, to come over here while the Judicial Committee was sitting. He imagined there would be some difficulty in getting an acting Judge either in Australia, or the Cape, or Canada to attend cases in the Privy Council. If that was so, it resolved itself into the appointment of a chance Judge who had retired and was living in this country, and, as far as he knew, there was no such case at present.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORdid not think that, as regarded Canada, there would be so much difficulty as the noble Lord had suggested. As a matter of fact, Canadian cases were very largely heard here and argued by Canadian counsel.
  *LORD KNUTSFORDremarked that Canadian counsel received payment, whereas this Judge was not to receive anything.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORdid not think it was impossible that the Chief Justice of Canada would be willing to discharge his public functions to some extent in this country. The Cape was more distant, but he thought it was possible that at times the Chief Justice of the Cape might attend in this country, and take part in the work of the Privy Council. The Bill, however, only proposed to take the first step, and that was to provide that these judicial persons, if made Privy Councillors, should thereby become members of the Judicial Committee. Any subsequent arrangement must be left to communication with the Colonies and to the consideration of what was the best course to be pursued.
  Bill read 1a, and to be printed. [No. 137.]
  He trusted there would be no attempt in this Bill to make any change about which there was any real controversy. The only hope was to confine the en deavour to codifying the existing law without amending it, except where the changes were universally approved.
  Bill read 2a.

  CANAL RATES, TOLLS AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  Commons Message of Friday last considered (according to Order): Moved that this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons, namely:—
  "That all Bills of the present Session to confirm Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the 'Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888,' containing the classification of merchandise traffic and the schedule of maximum rates, tolls, and charges applicable thereto, be referred to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons"—(The, Lord playfair)
  Agreed to; and a message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

  FINANCIAL RELATIONS BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND.
  LORD MORRISasked Her Majesty's Government when the taking of evidence by the Commission appointed to inquire into the financial relations between Great
  336
  Britain and Ireland was likely to be concluded, and when a report on the subject might be expected.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the Earl of KIMBERLEY): The Financial Relations Commission state that a volume of evidence and appendices is now ready, and will be presented to Parliament, with an interim report, in a few days. They further state that it is probable that, unless further evidence should be suggested, the evidence taken by the Commission will be concluded in the course of next month. The preparation of the final report, which will probably occupy some months, will then be undertaken.

  EXTRADITION BILL.— [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Bill reported without amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

  JOINT COMMITTEE ON DRAFTING.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I want to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack how a certain Joint Committee which he proposed is faring. It is the Committee which is to consider the question of drafting Bills in the matter of reference. I gather that the House of Commons does not differ from us in the opinion that a Joint Committee is desirable; but that one of those mysterious obstacles which occasionally arrest the business of that House has prevented the matter from going further. Does the noble Lord think that the matter is likely to go further? If not, I would ask him whether he does not think it would be more satisfactory for us to have a Committee of this House only because the business to be done will be probably confined to this House—that is to say, any corrections introduced for the purpose of mitigating the evil of reference will probably be introduced in the second House in which the Bill passes, and that will generally be the House of Lords. The whole of the work, therefore, in any system which may be adopted for the purpose of curing or diminishing this evil

  337
  will fall to us. I do not deny that a Joint Committee would be better, and would present more prospect of an ultimate remedy; but if a Joint Committee is impossible it would be better to have a Committee of this House.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As to the situation in the other House, my information is, like that of the noble Marquess, solely derived from the newspapers. As I understand the position is this:—Objection is taken to the constitution of the Committee in any other than the mode in which Committees generally are constituted—namely, with reference to the preponderance of political opinion. It is suggested that this Committee should be constituted differently. In order to obtain the services on the Committee of a certain individual, the ordinary rule has been departed from. But for that the House of Commons Members of the Joint Committee would already have been appointed. If I gather from the newspapers aright, the Member of the other House who has urged this departure from the ordinary practice, and whose urgency delays the appointment of the Committee, is a close ally of the noble Marquess, over whom the noble Marquess might have influence. But I could have no influence with him. If that influence were exercised, the House of Commons Members might be appointed, and the Committee might meet after Whitsuntide. If we cannot obtain a Joint Committee we must, of course, proceed with a Committee of our own House.

  THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: As the noble and learned Lord has mentioned Whitsuntide, I should like to know what that word means. When does the noble Earl propose that we should adjourn for the holidays?
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Unless the noble Marquess has some pressing business to propose in the interim, I shall move that the House adjourn on Thursday next till the following Monday fortnight.
  House adjourned during pleasure at Twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock.
  House resumed shortly after midnight.
  Lord KENSINGTON,chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor, took his seat on the Woolsack.
  The Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill and the Finance Bill brought from the Commons and read 1a.
  House adjourned at Ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.