§ *LORD STANMORE rose to call attention to the papers relating to Uganda recently presented to the House by Her Majesty's command; and to move for further papers respecting the administration of that Protectorate.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the Earl of KIMBERLEY), interposing, said: I wish to suggest to my noble Friend that it would be convenient if he would not proceed with his notice this evening, for this reason. It has been stated in the other House that, upon the occasion of the Vote being taken which is necessary for the purpose of paying a portion of 207 the money which is to be given to the East Africa Company, a statement will be made on behalf of the Government with regard to this whole question. I should, therefore, be unable to make any statement on the present occasion; and my noble Friend may think it better, perhaps, to postpone his Motion for the present.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am sorry to hear that the noble Lord declines to give the information which he has in his possession, for fear of spoiling the speech of his subordinate in the other House. However that may be, I see no reason why we should not have an expression of the sentiments of the noble Lord opposite.
THE LORD PRESIDENT (the Earl of ROSEBERY)I quite agree with the noble Marquess in being anxious that the House should not be deprived of the most expansive expression of the sentiments of the noble Lord; but I concur with my noble Friend in thinking that it would lead to no great result, except the reception of those sentiments. As a matter of fact, my noble Friend would not be in a position to make any statement on this subject to-day, and, though Her Majesty's Government would be in a position to make such a statement next week, we could not anticipate it on this occasion.
§ *LORD STANMOREsaid, he was not altogether prepared to admit that the fact that a discussion on this question was to take place in the other House next week was an adequate reason for refusing to discuss it in their Lordships' House now. He was old enough to remember Debates in their Lordships' House on subjects which were about to be subsequently discussed in the other House, and those Debates were often by no means without their effect on those which followed in the other House. No doubt an important part of what he had intended to say would have been the expression of the hope that the Government might give some intimation as to their future policy; but apart from that, he was desirous to call attention to some incidents of the past, and especially to the contents of the Blue Book. He had had a long experience of Blue Books, and must confess he had had his share in the delicate task 208 of preparing them for Parliament, but, of all the Blue Books which he had seen submitted to Parliament, he had seldom seen one in which the discrepancy between title and contents was greater than in this volume. In February last, their Lordships passed an address, asking for papers relative to the administration of the Protectorate of Uganda. Now in this Blue Book which had been presented, it was hardly too much to say that there was nothing about the administration of Uganda. There were a few shreds and scraps of information about it, but over 100 pages out of 137 related to a territory which the Government had declared, over and over again, was outside the administrative territory of the Protectorate. This volume ought to be entitled a Blue Book with regard to the recent military operations in Unyoro. He had nothing but admiration to express as to those operations, but they had uncommonly little to do with the administration of Uganda. When seeking information about the administration of a new possession, one naturally turned in the first place to the instructions given by Her Majesty's Government to the officer appointed to represent them in the Protectorate, but this book might be searched from one end to the other without finding any such instructions. There were no general instructions, and only just four matters upon which anything that could be called instructions at all were conveyed from Her Majesty's Government: First, that Colonel Colville was to take care not to buy ivory; next, that he was not to call the Chief Kabarega a British subject; thirdly, that he was to make arrangements with the Belgian Authorities for the occupation by them of Wadelai; and, fourthly, which did concern the administration of Uganda proper, that he was to see that the Roman Catholic Bishop carried out his promise to restore certain young princes to their homes. In searching for information as to administration, the first thing that one would look to iu the Reports from the new possession would be its finances: what revenue was likely to be raised; what was the machinery for collecting it; what the expenditure was likely to be, and what were the anticipations for the future. But there was not a syllable about all this in the Book, and they were left in ignorance as 209 to how the needs of the Government were to be met, or whether any taxation was to be imposed on the natives. Next, an enquirer would seek to know what provision had been made for the discharge of judicial duties. The appointment of officers to exercise judicial functions was mentioned in the Blue Book, but, as to what system they were to adminster nothing whatever was said. Then, again, one would like to know who the administrators were; what staff they had; what duties they were called on to perform; where they were located, and how they discharged their duties. Their Lordships were left in absolute ignorance as to all these matters. And it would no doubt be asked what had been done by the Administration for the means of communication, both in the country itself, and with it. There, again, they sought in vain for information. The Administration was endeavouring to improve the means of communication within Uganda itself, apart altogether from the great question of communication with the coast? There was no information in the Blue Book. It was a remarkable thing too that when they came to the other and broader question of communication between Uganda and the coast, to find that even as to this there was not a word in the Book. Did the Commissioner never write about it? If he did, why are his communications not published? If he did not, what an extraordinary circumstance that was. There was indeed just one memorandum by Major Macdonald of very old date, at page 9, about the road, but was it possible to believe that that memorandum stood altogether alone? Did not the authorities of the Protectorate make any comment about it in forwarding it? Had it never been supplemented by any Paper of the same nature? Had the home authorities allowed it to be pigeonholed without any answer or notice? He could not believe it. He thought the House, having had its request for information about the administration of Uganda nominally complied with, by assent to furnish papers, might have looked to be furnished with some real information in regard to it. So much about the Blue Book itself. His noble Friend had said that he would not answer questions as to the future 210 policy of the Government, and, therefore, he would not now put any, except in regard to one point concerning the past. But if not to the Government—if not to his noble Friend—there were others to whom he would appeal. He would ask their Lordships what was their opinion upon that question of the communications between Uganda and the coast; their opinion, if expressed, was one which might have weight with the Government. He was tired of reiterating, and the House must be tired of hearing from him, that it was absolutely necessary, if they meant to make any more use of Uganda than that of keeping it a patch on the map coloured as under British influence, to establish more rapid and complete communication between Uganda and the coast. He would not go into all that weary detail again. It was really a matter between ourselves and our German neighbours. There was a perfectly fair rivalry between us as to which of us should have the main line with a branch to the other. It was no secret in the City, whatever it might be at the Foreign Office, that at this moment a negotiation was going on for the rapid completion of the German line, of which 20 miles were already open. The Lord President had stated that we had a fair start of all foreign Powers, but he would remind his noble Friend and the House of the amount of railways made by foreign Powers in Central Africa. Even the Portuguese had 175 miles of railway in their territory. The Congo Free State had a railway of some extent. The Senegal and French Soudan railways were over 250 miles in length, and now running. Italy has a railway from Massowah to Sahaati. And, therefore, leaving out of account the railways rapidly progressing in the great country founded by Mr. Cecil Rhodes, and not under home control, Great Britain was showing a backwardness in the matter of railway construction in Central Africa as compared with other powers. We were, in fact, the only power in Central Africa which had not made some progress in railway construction. He was not going to ask his noble Friend what he intended to do—whether, now that the Company had been disposed of, and its claims in a measure settled, he meant to reconsider the question. Yet he was not without 211 hope that it would be reconsidered, and that being so, he would not say a word that would tend to make the task more difficult. He augured well from the appointment of Mr. Berkeley as Commissioner to Uganda. A better appointment could hardly have been made by the Government, and he augured from it a better state of things for the Protectorate. He would not, therefore, seek to anticipate the disclosures to be made next week in another place, but he confessed that he felt some jealousy that that House should be deprived of the information which appeared to be freely granted to the other House. He wished, however, to put one question. It might be remembered that on the last occasion when he addressed the House on the subject he called attention to a very curious statement as to certain arbitrary acts which had taken place at Kavirondo. Had the Government received any further information with respect to the circumstances of that matter? Again, he earnestly desired, although without asking for any reply now on the point, to direct the careful attention of the Government to the condition of the great territories between Uganda and the sea coast, and to their future interests. He strongly hoped the Government in their forthcoming disclosures would be able to show that they had provided some efficient and adequate control for this great region, which was under their influence, though it did not come directly under the control of the Protectorate. This was no light matter. A very heavy responsibility would fall upon those who had to discharge the duty of providing for the administration of this territory. The provision merely of a Road Superintendent in order to keep communications open, an appointment already made, was altogether inadequate. He had every desire to support the Government in what they might do for the benefit of this territory, and his object now was so to represent the facts to them that they might be induced to take the course that seemed to him to be the best. It must not be forgotten that a great portion of this territory was better suited for European settlement than any other part of East Africa, and if steps were not taken now to obtain and exercise adequate control over it, we might 212 find ourselves in a very unpleasant position in a few years with regard to it. For persons would come in without authority, get possession of the land, acquire quasi rights, and thus become very troublesome to deal with. He had an extract from a letter from one of the officers of the East Africa Company, who in describing the state of affairs in that intermediate territory said that the—
Independent action of European traders in acquiring land and establishing stores in his district, is already creating trouble. It is the desire of the Masai to settle under the protection of our forts. Lenana requests permission to settle at Mivasha, some convenient spot, where they may be under protection. I shall do my best to persuade him to settle down and make shambas, though as Her Majesty's Government claim that part I shall not be able to offer them anything definite. I shall be only too glad if they will settle, and they would be only too glad to settle if they had protection. Slave-trading raids are again beginning to get troublesome.He wished, therefore, most earnestly to commend this point to the consideration of the Government, for he was constrained to repeat that the fate of this intermediate territory was a question of the highest importance. The Government ought not under any circumstances to allow it to relapse into such a condition as to become a sort of "no man's land," where claims might be set up which it would afterwards be very difficult to deal with. He had seen something of this sort of thing in distant parts of the world, and he knew from experience in the Pacific, that difficulties, easily to be avoided if decisive steps were taken at the proper time, were apt to become formidable if neglected. With one word further he would conclude. Up to this time the Administration of the district between Uganda and the Coast, such as it was, had been in the hands of the Company. The Company, however, had been settled with, and a sum had been granted them in compensation of their claim. Though that was arranged some time ago, it would not be until next week that Parliament would be asked for the grant. But in the meantime the Company had been carrying on the administration at a large expense—doing in fact the work that really belonged to the Government. No proposal, however, had been made to give 213 additional compensation to the company for this service, and he ventured to say that, under the circumstances, it would only be an act of common justice that, for the period between the making of the agreement and the date when the House of Commons made the grant, the company should be paid its expenses of administration. In conclusion, he expressed the hope that the noble Lord, when next he produced papers on the question, would also furnish their Lordships with maps showing the places at which British officers were stationed, and accompanied by a statement of the duties they had to discharge.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI will first notice what my noble Friend has said about this Blue Book. He really treats the matter as if Uganda was an established British Colony in which we had been able to promulgate a constitution. He has had great experience in Colonial Affairs, and perhaps he is disappointed in not seeing some elaborate scheme set forth in this Blue Book; but he must remember the condition of this country and the circumstances under which we have very recently assumed the protectorate of it. Communication with Uganda is, unfortunately, extremely slow, and I would draw his attention to the fact that it was only on November 14 last that I received a Dispatch informing me that the proclamation of a protectorate had been made and that the Treaty had been confirmed with King Mwanga, on which the whole of the arrangements depend. It is scarcely to be expected that I should, under these circumstances, be able to frame what the noble Lord calls a system of administration. Uganda was to be in the first instance administered under the authority of the king of the country acting through our Commissioner. These matters, however, must wait until we have more knowledge of the country and of how its administration ultimately can best be carried on. To attempt in a country of that kind suddenly to frame any system such as the noble Lord has contemplated would probably lead to the worst results.
§ *LORD STANMOREsaid he would remind the noble Lord that three years ago, before the company gave up the administration of Uganda, the outlines of a system of revenue and of judicial administration were already made.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYThat may have been. What I was about also to point out to the noble Lord was that the circumstances of that portion of Africa have been such that our Acting Commissioner has been principally employed in defending the protectorate against a very serious attack from a considerable party in its immediate vicinity. Nearly the whole of the time and exertions of our Acting Commissioner have been directed to the carrying on of a difficult and serious war. He deserves the utmost credit—[Lord STANMORE: "Hear, hear?"]—for the admirable manner in which that duty has been performed, and I am glad to be able to inform my noble Friend that it was not a very expensive business. But I am sorry to say that that war is not, in point of fact, at the present moment at an end. The very last account received was that Kabarega, after having apparently sued for peace, made a very destructive raid on the country immediately adjoining the protectorate, and our officers are, no doubt, fully occupied with the measures necessary to repeal that attack. Under these circumstances it can scarcely be expected that Colonel Colville, who after all was only an Acting Commissioner, should proceed to make those elaborate reports which my noble Friend seems to have expected from him. If the noble Lord thinks that in the composition of this Blue Book a number of important despatches have been kept back, I can assure him that that is absolutely contrary to the fact. [The Earl of ROSEBBET: "Hear, hear!"] This book is composed principally of the accounts of the war with Unyoro, because I thought they would be interesting to the House; and on these main, events in the protectorate the whole matter has hinged. Another important subject mentioned in the Blue Book is certain transactions which took place with the Roman Catholic Bishops in regard to two Princes and matters touching the throne of King Mwanga. What we have now done is this. Unfortunately, Colonel Colville, who has returned to this country, fell dangerously ill in Uganda, and, having suffered severely in health, has been compelled to retire, and we have taken the step which we had for some time contemplated of appointing a very 215 experienced Civil Commissioner in Mr. Berkeley, an appointment which I am glad to see the noble Lord approves. Mr. Berkeley accompanied Sir Gerald Portal to Uganda, and he is admirably qualified to organise an administration in the country, and we look to him to be able to do far more than it was possible for Colonel Colville to attempt in the circumstances in which he was placed. Besides that my noble Friend called attention—and I do not in the least complain of it—to the condition of the vast intervening country between Uganda and the coast. That, of course, is a most important feature in the whole matter. In order to deal with that portion of territory it was absolutely essential we should come to terms with the East Africa Company. It may have seemed a long time to my noble Friend, but I can assure him we found that by no means an easy operation. We had a great deal of discussion and negotiation with the Company, and I regard with great satisfaction our having been able at last to come to terms with them. The actual agreement cannot be enforced until we get a Vote from the House of Commons for a portion of the money that has to be paid, and even after that I hope my noble Friend will not be very much disappointed if he does not find all the arrangements go forward with that celerity he seemed to expect. I hope now after the agreement comes into force, if the House of Commons accepts the Vote for the money, we shall be in a far better position to form a reasonable scheme and a reasonable policy with regard to the whole region. I entirely agree it would be to the last degree unwise, and indeed impossible, to neglect the country that lies between Uganda and the coast. That is the country through which the whole of the communications must take place. I will add nothing further. I have given this explanation to my noble Friend because he has commented on the Blue Book. I can only say the whole matter has been receiving the most careful consideration of the Government, and at the proper time we shall be perfectly prepared to state our policy.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI would call the noble Earl's attention to the fact that, when he declined to go into the question, all that there was on the 216 Paper was a notice of my noble Friend to call attention to the papers relating to Uganda recently presented. Now the suggestion that the Under Secretary was about to make a speech next week on the subject of the Vote to the British East Africa Company was hardly a satisfactory reason for not discussing the matters in the Blue Book; for the Under Secretary himself will not be permitted to enter into any other questions except those which concern the British East Africa Company and the territory that it has governed. And if anybody else attempts to do so they will be prevented, because the rules of the House of Common have become of late years exceedingly strict in matters of relevancy, owing to abundance of matter which does not trouble us in this House; and therefore we have very little hope of adequate discussion upon the subject from them. I would venture to point out to the noble Earl that, considering the extreme interest that was felt in this question of Uganda, considering how keenly it was felt that on prompt and sufficiently opportune action the whole future of our supremacy in those regions would depend, we have been exceedingly reserved and careful in bringing the matter for discussion before this House. I do not remember any matter of similar importance which has been treated with so much reserve. I do not take any praise to ourselves for that. I think it was our duty, but I think that that duty involved a corresponding reciprocal duty on the part of the Government to give us all the imformation they possibly could on the first opportunity. The conduct of the noble Earl in now putting us off till next Thursday, the last day before the Recess, and saying we shall not know anything until the Government has spoken in the House of Commons, with the prospect of a considerable delay of any comment on that message, if important, before the House comes together again, seems to me a breach of that reciprocal obligation which I think the conduct of the House generally has rather imposed upon the Government in this respect. Of course, our anxieties are not very much about Unyoro or Kabarega or any other interesting heroes of that country, but we wish to know what is to be the fate of that vast territory which has been 217 brought under British influence—not only the territory between the lake and the coast, but the territory which lies between the lake and the frontier of Egypt. If the noble Earl tells me that these things cannot be dealt with because of the delicate discussions which they imply with foreign Powers, I could understand it, though I think the delay has been sufficiently long; but when he tells me that they cannot be discussed because it would spoil the speech of the Under Secretary next week, I must say the noble Earl has hardly treated the House with sufficient frankness.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLI only wish to say that, because of the motives of reserve to which the noble Marquess has referred, and because of the fact that our discussions on matters of foreign affairs, and especially transactions so delicate as those in which the Government has been engaged in reference to Uganda, I have taken no part whatever in any of the slight discussions which have arisen in this House during this and the previous Session on Uganda. But there is another reason why I have refrained from referring to it—namely, that the long and, as I think, injurious delay that has taken place in our proceedings with regard to that country has not, I am convinced, been due either to my noble Friend who holds the Seals of the Foreign Office or to the noble Earl at the head of the Government. The delay is due, not to them, but to that controlling Department of the Government which is concerned with the production of money. But I cannot resist this opportunity of saying a word as to my strong feeling that the East Africa Company has been, on the whole, very shabbily dealt with, not by my noble Friends opposite, for I believe this treatment is entirely owing to the action of the Treasury. I happen to know a good deal about the origin of that company, although I never had any concern in it myself. I can quite understand the great objections entertained by many persons to the principle of territorial extensions in the hands of commercial companies. There is a great deal to be said against them, no doubt, although we cannot forget that our Indian Empire has had that origin. But what I cannot forget is this—that the power of that company was absolutely at the disposal 218 of the Government of the day, and the charter under which they acted was put under the control of the Government. Nothing they did could be done without the sanction of the Government, and nothing they refrained from doing could be entirely separated from the responsibility of the Government of the time. Under these circumstances, I think the treatment of the company has been exceedingly shabby. I must say this of Sir William Mackinnon, who was a great friend of mine, that there never was an undertaking conceived by commercial enterprise in this country, which was more entirely pure as regards motives than that which was undertaken by Sir William Mackinnon. He was a man of the highest character and purest motives, and he repeatedly said to his shareholders—
I am afraid, gentlemen, we must take our dividends in the shape of philanthropy.Among the many events of our time which will be remembered as distinguishing the reign of Queen Victoria I very much doubt whether the opening-up to civilisation for the first time of the great continent of Central Africa will not be one of the most remarkable. It is a monstrous thing to think that one of the great quarters of the globe around which the great commerce of the world has circulated for thousands of years should be up to our own time absolutely unknown to the civilised nations of Europe. I know there is always some bloodshed and loss of life involved in proceedings of the kind undertaken in Africa, and I remember that when my noble Friend, who is now at the head of the Foreign Office, sat on this side of the House, he spoke very strongly as to the consideration which ought to be given to the amount of blood and treasure which must be expended in such extensive operations as those to which we are now pledged. But we must remember that, as regards the interests of civilisation and of the inhabitants of Africa, the amount of bloodshed involved by the establishment of our dominion there, is as a drop in the bucket to the blood shed 219 by the native rulers in those kingdoms. It is a question not of cruel executions here and there, but of whole holocausts of human beings, bound hand and foot, cast to the ground, brushwood piled over them, and set on fire. We know that in the countries of Ashanti and Dahomi there are oceans of blood shed every year. I look upon it as one of the great duties of civilised Europe to put an end to such a state of things, and to introduce civilisation into that continent. If we intend to make our dominion really felt in that country, and to keep abreast of the other great civilised nations of the world, we must, at an early period, construct a line of communication between Uganda and the sea.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYI am sure Her Majesty's Government have no reason to complain of the tone this discussion has taken, if it were necessary that this discussion should take place at all. I felt that it was impossible to stem the torrent of the eloquence of my noble Friend below the Gangway, even although we had to anticipate his speech by saying that we were not in a position to make a statement. I have only to reiterate that fact. I meant no disrespect to this House. I never alluded to a prospective speech by the Under Secretary in the House of Commons, but what I did say was—that to-day the Government were not in a position to make a statement on the subject, and they had promised one in the House of Commons next week, pending which and up to which time they were not prepared to make a statement anywhere. It is not a question of the Under Secretary making it in the House of Commons, though why the noble Marquess should cling to the idea of the Under Secretary, instead of the Leader of the House I scarcely know. We announced the simple fact that the Government was not in a position to make a statement to-day, and the reasons for that I do not think the Executive Government are bound to furnish. I think when the Government, on its own responsibility, asks that the discussion of a question involving points of foreign policy should be postponed four or five days it is the rule in this House as well as in the other House of Parliament that that request should be treated with 220 some consideration. I do not deny that it has been so on this occasion, because, with the exception of the somewhat rhetorical speech by my noble Friend below the Gangway, there has been no serious impugnment of the Government on that point. The noble Marquess rather sustained the noble Lord, and said he did not wish to be denied the refreshment of his speech. But the noble Marquis got up after that refreshment and took a line which amply justified the Government in the position they had taken. The Motion we have to deal with is big enough to cover Africa itself with almost. It runs:—
To call attention to the Papers relating to Uganda recently presented to the House by Her Majesty's command; and to move for further papers respecting the administration of that Protectorate.To that text the noble Lord below the Gangway to some extent adhered. He believed that there were suppressed papers and a concealed constitution for Uganda which we ought to have produced, but did not produce; and he reproached the Government with some asperity within the four corners of his Motion. But what did the noble Marquess do? He got up and said—What we want to know is, not anything about the administration of Uganda, but whether there is any information as to the proceedings on the Upper Nile.I find nothing of that sort in the Motion before the House; and the Government have not promised any statement on the subject by the Under Secretary in the other, or by any Minister in either, House of Parliament. But does it not show the extraordinary difficulty and danger in which we are placed by the looseness of procedure in this House, when under the Motion which is before us the noble Marquess can complain of not being allowed to discuss affairs on the Upper Nile. Well, my Lords, one would have thought, then, that this discussion was unlimited enough. But the noble Duke opposite arises, and, without for a moment alluding to the question of the protectorate of Uganda, calls attention to what he calls the shabby way in which we have treated the East Africa Company. My Lords, a bargain is a bargain. I do not think we have treated the East Africa Company shabbily. I 221 must not go into the controversy at this moment, but I do lay down this general principle, that when a commercial company undertakes a certain work and finds it has not capital or power to continue that work, it is not the business of the Imperial Government, under all circumstances, to reimburse the company for the capital it has spent; but that if it pays the company 10s. in the £, without inquiring into the way the expenditure of the company has been carried out, it cannot be held to have behaved shabbily to that company. The noble Duke complains of our delay. I confess that I feel myself perfectly purged of, and innocent of, that charge. Negotiations, even if shabbily conducted, are apt to be contracted. We had to satisfy the aspirations and ambitions of a company which, as the noble Duke told us—I speak in no scoffing spirit, for I know it to be the case—was to take out its dividends in philanthropy; but when it came to discuss the question of evacuation was not satisfied with that remuneration. It had been a long business; but we had one very unfortunate circumstance, of a kind we could not foresee, which protracted these negotiations. That was the death of the Sultan of Zanzibar. A large part of the negotiations consisted of the re-acquisition by the Sultan of Zanzibar of the rights which he had leased to the Company on the coast. When it came to obtain the funds for the re-acquisition of those rights, they were found to be locked up, by the death of the Sultan, in such a way that we could not release them until a very few weeks before the completion of the transaction that has taken place. Then there comes the question of the railway. The Government deliberately determined not to consider the question of the railway until they had ascertained under what Government and under what Administration the territory was to exist. My Lords, how long is it since the bargain was signed and sealed with the Company? Barely a month—I cannot be particular as to the weeks—and yet we are now once more being bombarded with Motions to which we are now so accustomed, asking for immediate declarations of our position, both as to the construction of the railway and as to the administration of the country. I venture, therefore, to think 222 that the appeal of the Government, that we should be allowed to postpone for four or five days our declaration on this subject—putting aside the much larger issues raised by the noble Marquess and the noble Duke—was, under the circumstances, not an unreasonable one to propose to the House. My Lords, I pass from the controversial aspect of the case. I entirely associate myself, in an humble way, with the eloquent words which were addressed to us by the noble Duke. I believe it will be one of the great features of the Victorian era—of which we have so happy an anniversary to-day—that the civilising power of the British Empire has been carried further, more justly, and more mercifully over a greater area than has ever been known in the history of the world. But as regards Africa, it has not been altogether sheer philanthropy that has put us so far. It has been—what shall I call it?—the enthusiasm of the nations of Europe for dividing that Continent. We, on our part, would have been satisfied to proceed much more slowly, and much more economically, if we had not been pushed into the competition of the race. And, therefore, we have been forced into Central Africa without all the finished apparatus of constitution and administration which the noble Lord below the Gangway thinks we ought to have sent in our first caravan. My Lords, I do not regret that events in Uganda have been carried on in a somewhat rough and ready spirit. I do not even—if I may carry my confessions one step further—altogether regret that the administration of Uganda has not been under the direct telegraphic control of the Government at home. Indeed, I am very much inclined to think that, in some parts of the Empire, adventure and colonisation have been very much better effected without, than with, the co-operation of Downing Street. I am afraid of carrying my confessions any further, and therefore, with a view to the statement to be made next week, I shall resume my seat.
§ *LORD STANMOREsaid, he had heard what had fallen from his noble Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Lord President with some surprise. He did not often trouble the House, but whenever he had the misfortune to differ from the Government, the noble Earl the Lord 223 President levelled charges at him of displaying asperity and hostility which were not really justified by the occasion. On the present occasion, the noble Earl censured him for not having complied with the suggestion made on behalf of the Government. He begged to say that, so far as he was aware, he had complied with that suggestion to the letter. He had not asked any question as to any statement that was likely to be made hereafter. He had not alluded to any question of diplomacy that might arise, for he entirely agreed with the noble Lord that any suggestion from the Government as to inconvenience arising therefrom should be listened to with absolute respect. But in this case no such request had been made. It was only suggested that as a statement was to be made in another place next week, the noble Lord would answer no questions now. He had consequently asked none. He had confined himself solely to calling attention to the fact that the Papers presented to the House gave very inadequate information on the subject they dealt with. The reply of the Foreign Secretary astonished him. His noble Friend had said, and he accepted his assurance to the letter, that there were no more papers to produce.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI did not say there were no more Papers. I said there had been no suppressed Papers of an important character.
§ *LORD STANMOREsaid, he accepted that statement, and therefore he concluded that there had been no instruction addressed to the Commissioner in Uganda. His noble Friend had said no instruction had been sent to the Commissioner, because it was not until November that the Government had heard that the Proclamation announcing the assumption of the Protectorate had been issued in Uganda. But was it necessary to wait until intelligence of the Proclamation had arrived by post before determining what instructions were to be given under it? Might it not have been expected that they would have accompanied the transmission of the announcement of the assumption of the Protectorate from this country? His noble Friend had referred very kindly to his Colonial experience. A great part of that experience was obtained under the eyes of his noble Friend, and he knew he would bear him out in saying 224 that no man considered elaborate constitutions unfitted and unnecessary for savage and semi-savage nations more than he did. He did not want—as the Lord President twitted him with wanting—an elaborate Constitution for Uganda. What he wanted to call atten-to was, that three years ago—as all readers of Captain Lugard's book were aware—they were preparing a rough system of taxation and a rough judicial system, of the kind that would work best in a rough country; and, moreover, he knew from experience that they might do a great deal for a country like Uganda by opening up roads within its bounds. In fact, he was convinced that the most essential thing for improving and civilising a savage country was—first, roads; second, roads; third, roads. He assumed that his noble Friend had no objection to consent to his Motion.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI certainly shall not consent to the Motion. I have produced all the Papers that can be presented, up to a very late date, indeed, and I cannot consent to a Motion for more Papers.
§ *LORD STANMOREThen I will withdraw the Motion; but I suppose we will have more papers on the subject.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he might state that quite recently some instructions had been given with regard to improving, as soon as possible, the road from Kavirondo, where the greatest difficulties at present existed. Those instructions had been given since the publication of the Blue Book.