Lords Sitting of 16 May 1895

DRAFTING OF BILLS.
Message from the Commons that they have appointed a Select Committee of Five Members to join with the Select Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in the Message of this House of the 5th day of April last, to consider in what manner such inconvenience as arises from legislation by reference in Acts of Parliament to prior enactments can best be avoided.
JOURNAL COMMITTEE.
Report from, that the one hundred and twenty-sixth volume of the Journals (57th and 58th Vict. 1894), with an Index, was ready for delivery: read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and the said volume ordered to be delivered in the same manner as the preceding volumes of the Journals have been delivered.
WELSH INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION ACT, 1889.
Report of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, presented.
ORDNANCE SUREY.
Report of the progress of the Ordnance Survey to the 31st December, 1894, presented.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
The following Bills were considered in Committee (according to Order). Amendments were made, and in each case the Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ACTON) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BRISTOL) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (HORNSEY) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LEEDS) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LIVERPOOL) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LOWESTOFT) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (MANCHESTER) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (PWLLHELI) BILL.—[H.L.]
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WESTON-SUPER-MARE) BILL.—[H.L.]
LOCAL ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) BILL.—[H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1850) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order for Second Reading, read.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord TWEEDMOUTH)said, the Bill he asked their Lordships to read a second time was one which had passed through the House of Commons by general consent. The High Court of Justiciary in Scotland had recently decided that cock-fighting did not come within the provisions of the Cruelty to Animals (Scotland) Act, 1850, and therefore in Scotland there was no power to deal with cock-fighting when it took place. Recently there had been a number of very flagrant cases of cock-fighting in Renfrewshire, where cocks had been armed with steel spurs and where the gatherings had been attended by large numbers of roughs. The object of the Bill was to bring cock-fighting within the operation of the Act of 1850, and he hoped their Lordships would give the Bill a Second Reading.
Bill read 2a.

SOLICITORS (IRELAND) BILL.— [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
SAVINGS BANKS BILL.— [H.L.]
Order for Second Reading to-morrow, discharged.

THE RICHMOND LUNATIC ASYLUM, DUBLIN.
THE EARL OF BELMORErose to ask—
"What is the total sum that it is contemplated to spend on the re-modelling of the Richmond Lunatic Asylum, Dublin; whether it does not exceed £110,000; and whether it would not be better to build a new asylum in a more healthy locality, rather than to spend a large sum of money in repairing and altering an old building on a bad site?"
He said he made no apology for putting the question, although he was aware that when he was absent earlier in the Session, a question something like his was put by Lord Erne. Upon that occasion the noble Lord opposite made a short statement to which he would refer. Although he was intimately acquainted with many parts of Dublin, he did not happen to know very much about the particular part of Dublin in which the Richmond Lunatic Asylum was situated, but for his purposes he gathered enough as to the facts from the noble Lord's answer when he was last interrogated. With regard to the very peculiar and mysterious disease which broke out some years ago, the noble Lord said the Chief Public Health Officer of Dublin admitted there was a certain kind of contamination of the soil in the neighbourhood of some of the drains. Such contamination of the soil in Dublin was, he was afraid, by no means an uncommon thing. Fifteen or sixteen years ago, when the Intermediate Education Beard was seeking for an office, he, on behalf of the Board of which he was at that time a member, made inquiries into the state of some of the houses in Dublin, and he found that very good houses indeed were to be bought for small sums of money compared with what was to be paid in London. But when they were buying a house the first thing to do was to examine the state of the soil below the house, because most of the houses in Dublin
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were built in a time when modern sanitation was not at all understood, and when there was the cesspool system, the consequence being that the soil had been much contaminated. If they wanted to be quite safe when they bought a house it was necessary very often to remove the soil below the house entirely, and in many instances to take out the foundations and rebuild them. That was a very expensive job, and if it were to be done in the case of a large asylum like the Richmond Asylum it would cost a great deal of money. He understood that as the Richmond Asylum was too small at present to accommodate properly the inmates, it was proposed to build a new asylum for some of the lunatics at a place called Portrane, and also to patch up and alter the present asylum. What he wanted to know was whether it would not be better and cheaper either to build a sufficiently large asylum at Portrane for all the pauper lunatics of Dublin and the counties associated with Dublin—Louth and, he believed, Wicklow—or, if it was thought advisable, to build a second asylum somewhere else instead of patching up the asylum at Richmond for the accommodation of a portion of the lunatic poor? The noble Lord, when questioned by Lord Erne, said that the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums in Ireland advised that with certain alterations the Richmond Asylum might be continued for use by the pauper lunatics of the City of Dublin; but, on the other hand, the Resident Medical Superintendent advised that the site was not a favourable one, and that it would be better to build a new asylum altogether. £65,000 was mentioned by a noble Lord as the probable cost of altering the present asylum, but he (Lord Belmore) had since been informed that so far from that being the case, the probability was that £110,000 would have to be spent. As was often the case with Irish estimates, the sum was nearly doubled. It seemed to some people who had looked into the matter that it would certainly be better to either enlarge the Portrane Asylum or to build a second one, and, of course, to get whatever was possible for the old site, which, he supposed, would be sold. With reference to building in the country he might make one remark. He was for more than a quarter of a

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century one of the governors of an asylum which was built out in the country; and he was sure that it would be greatly for the benefit of the lunatic poor of Dublin if they also could be provided with an asylum outside the city. Lord Ribblesdale had pointed out on a previous occasion that there were houses only on one side of the Richmond Asylum; but even in that case, it could not enjoy the favourable conditions of a country site. As to how far this was a question for the Irish Government, he would only remark that it was a question on which the Government could, at any rate, exercise a strong moral pressure and potential voice; and it should not be left to the discretion of the governors alone.
LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid, that the cost of remodelling the Richmond Asylum was estimated at £60,000, and not at £110,000. For that sum it was calculated that suitable buildings and accommodation would be provided for the 800 lunatics of the district, who could not be accommodated in the new buildings at Portrane. The new buildings were estimated to cost £240,000, and to accommodate 1,200 lunatics. He took no exception as to the way in which the noble Earl had explained the whole matter, and reminded the House of what the Government had said before. On a previous occasion he had explained the facts of the case on behalf of the Government, and he had nothing to explain away. As to the moral pressure which the Irish Government could bring to bear on the Board of Control, at an earlier stage the Government took very much the view now stated by the noble Earl. They thought that it might be better to abandon the existing Asylum, and to erect new buildings on a better site, getting rid of the disagreeable associations which seemed to hang about the old site. After reading all the correspondence, he was bound to say that that was still his personal opinion. The Irish Government approached the Board of Control on the subject, and they pointed out an economic objection. The whole site of buildings, they said, if put into the open market could not possibly produce more than £20,000, whereas, while used for the accommodation of lunatics, for which purpose they were adapted, they were worth at least £100,000. In view
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of the circumstances of the case, the Board of Control did not feel justified in recommending this course, by which a large additional burden would be thrown upon the taxpayers. This view was also adopted by the Governors of the Asylum themselves, and as he had pointed out when this question was last raised by Lord Erne, the Irish Government were not the supreme authority. If the Board of Control and the Governors were satisfied, the Government could do little more.
VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTsaid, that as one of the Governors of the Richmond Lunatic Asylum, he knew that they had had long discussions on this subject. Ultimately the decision was that the present Asylum should be maintained, and that certain buildings should be put up as additions to the old buildings, which were adapted for the purposes of any asylum. The increase of lunacy in Ireland, as well as in other countries, was so great that the Governors had thought it necessary to build another Asylum, and the Board of Control's assent having been obtained, plans were prepared for the auxiliary Asylum at Portrane. The land had been purchased, and the buildings would be in progress very soon. The Medical Superintendent of the Asylum, who was appointed in the time of Lord Aberdeen's Government, had been pressing for these improvements for a long time, and it was entirely by his action that matters had been carried so far. The Governors deprecated the moving of the Asylum, because they thought that it would involve a great waste of money. The small additional structures to the old buildings were partly brick and partly wood, but they answered their purpose very well.
LORD ASHBOURNEsaid that this question had attracted very keen attention from all those who took any interest in lunatic administration. That consideration was wider than any narrow local considerations, or any question of small or even large additions to the rates. There had been a very large increase in the lunatic population of Ireland and other countries, and there had been an earnest and benevolent desire to find what was the best curative process to be applied in the treatment of lunatics. The universal opinion was—that

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the wisest and best course was to place asylums in healthy country surroundings where the inmates could have the opportunity of gardening and moderate occupation in agriculture, to relieve the mind. This principle would be found in full operation in England, Scotland, and everywhere else in Ireland. It had been applied in Belfast and Londonderry. In the case of the latter city, the asylum was moved to the open country, for a site far more healthy than that of the Richmond Asylum, in the suburbs of Londonderry. He doubted whether there was an asylum in Ireland with a larger number of inmates than the Richmond Asylum. At present it was enormously overcrowded, there being about 400 in excess of the number for whom there was legitimate space. When, under the pressure of their own feelings, assisted by enlightened criticism from outside, the Governors tried to cope with this state of things, they found that the difficulty could largely be met by erecting a new and healthily situated asylum at Portrane. He had no doubt that this new institution would work well, but what was to happen to the lunatics heretofore housed at the Richmond Asylum, who could not be accommodated at Portrane? They would be between 600 and 700 in number. If a large number of the present inmates of Richmond Asylum were to be accommodated at Portrane, a parity of reasoning would suggest that the remainder would get similar advantages by the enlargement of the plans. That would be the obvious consideration unless there were some overmastering convenience or question of money that compelled the question to be adjourned. Of course prudence had always to be borne in mind; but from all he heard on this question he was disposed to think that the noble Lord had not been put in possession of the actual figures with reference to this case. Unquestionably they differed entirely from the facts supplied to him. It was true, he believed, that the local superintendent of the asylum, a very able medical officer, was not at all satisfied with the feasibility of ever making the old asylum a good place for the reception or treatment of the insane, and his opinion was about as valuable as could be obtained Ireland. He was entirely against this
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very expensive tinkering policy. What was that policy? Could any milder form of words be used, bearing in mind the correction which he proposed to give to the figures? The noble Lord representing the Government stated on information furnished to him that he believed about £60,000 or £65,000 was the correct figure.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: £60,000.
LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, that at the last meeting of the Governors it appeared that the gentleman whose plans were to be adopted for the alteration, Mr. Naher Roberts, a very able man, stated that in addition to £10,000 already spent in alterations, it was contemplated to spend £49,000 more, that was to say £59,000. He went on to add, however, what was a very important circumstance, namely, that the subsequent cost of completing the arrangements at the North House would amount to about £50,000. This came to exactly the £110,000 stated in the question of his noble Friend. This was stated by the right hon. Mr. Mead, formerly Lord Mayor, in the presence of Mr. Naher Roberts. At the last meeting it was also stated that the present building at Richmond if sold in the market would realise £20,000; so that there was a sum of £130,000 available. Surely the proposition suggested by his noble Friend was a better one—namely, to seek for a new site, with healthy surroundings, in accordance with all the requirements and suggestions of modern science for the treatment of the insane, than to spend this immense sum on a bad and condemned site, in trying to alter an asylum which was situated in a place that would not be tolerated according to the opinions of those who were the best judges of these questions. He believed it had been stated on a former occasion that it was contemplated to buy some further land in the neighbourhood in order to meet the requirements of modern lunacy treatment; and if this were the case, then here was a further element of expense. They therefore had £110,000, plus £20,000 for the old buildings, and the saving in the cost of buying new land in the neighbourhood. But Lord Powerscourt, who knew the locality better than he did, though he personally had some knowledge of it, would be able to say whether or not

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there was any very tempting additional land to be bought outside the walls of the asylum. He thought that it would be extremely difficult to find appropriate additional land in the neighbourhood in order to improve the locality and make it more attractive to look upon than at present. This was not, however, the occasion to enter into further details. The question of his noble Friend had been presented reasonably and broadly, and he admitted that the Government had met it fairly. He was aware of the difficulties. It was right that the governors should be very careful to see that value was got for their money, and that they were safeguarding the rights of the ratepayers. It was a difficult and important duty, but the Government possessed some power. They had practically the nomination to the Board of Control of additional members, and the ultimate carrying out of the many arrangements rested with them. The Board of Control was composed of able men, and the opinion of all the Board and the Governors, as well as the Government, was that the best possible result should be attained. No one suggested that the Government, the Board of Control, and the Governors were not anxious to do what was best for these afflicted persons; but his noble Friend had drawn attention to the opinion, widely entertained by persons who considered these great questions of lunacy administration, that, on the whole, it would be wiser, cheaper, and in the interests of lunacy administration boldly to grapple with the question by seeking a site at which no one could cavil, instead of spending this immense sum of money on a site which, at all events, had been seriously impugned, and by altering buildings which up to the present time had not had a very satisfactory history.
LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid, that his noble Friend was perfectly right; it would, perhaps, be better and cheaper. As to the question of figures, however, he spoke under correction, because he had not seen the specifications or the estimates; but he thought that in the sum of £110,000 his noble and learned Friend had somehow included £50,000 twice.
LORD ASHBOURNE: They do not do that even in Ireland.
LORD RIBBLESDALEcould hardly believe in any case that the authorities would inform him that these plans would only cost £60,000. If the authorities abandoned the existing buildings and provided elsewhere for the lunatics who would become homeless, the charge would add £100,000 net to the large sum of money which was being spent—£240,000. The whole point centred round the question, "What is the estimate?" The figures in his possession were £60,000, and the noble Lord's figures were £110,000. The information of the Irish Office was more likely to be accurate than an extract from a newspaper, from which the noble Lord had quoted.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsuggested an explanation of the discrepancy. In Ireland it was the universal practice of architects to spend twice the amount of their original estimate. If the noble Lord applied that rule to the case under discussion he would find that, if the original sum was £60,000, twice that amount would approximate to the figures quoted by his noble and learned Friend.
VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTsaid, he had seen the buildings, and he did not think that they could have cost anything like £110,000. They were wooden structures, and some of them of concrete; and, generally, they were not of an ambitious character. He thought that there must be some mistake.
LORD ASHBOURNEdid not think that there was the slightest mistake in his figures. The allegation was that £10,000 had been spent already; it was contemplated to spend almost immediately £49,000, that made £59,000, while over and above this it was contemplated at a subsequent date to spend another sum of £50,000. There was a discrepancy of £50,000 between his view and the view furnished to the noble Lord on behalf of the Government. He asserted that the conversation wherein this sum of £50,000 was stated occurred in the presence of Mr. Usher Roberts, who had been superannuated in the fulness of his powers under the 65 years' rule.
House adjourned at Fifteen minutes after Five o'clock.