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THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved—
That it be an instruction to the Standing Committee to insert as a schedule in every Bill which refers to any sections of an Act of Parliament for the purpose of amending or repealing them, a reprint of such sections in all cases in which it can be done without an excessive increase in the bulk of the Bill in question.
He said the Motion was intended to correct what was a great evil in our legislation. He was not at all bigoted as to the remedy, if any other than that proposed could be found. But a remedy was required. The practice had grown more and more of referring in a Bill, to other Acts of Parliament by way of modification and amendment, and not mentioning what the effect of that reference might be. The result was, that for a man to sit down to find out what a Bill meant simply from the Bill itself was to undertake a task as hopeless as interpreting an arrow-headed inscription. There was absolutely nothing in the Bill to tell the meaning of the clause in which the reference was made. He had no doubt this was a convenient plan for passing Bills through the House of Commons. The very obscurity which made a Bill perfectly useless to the subject, when passed, made it impenetrable to a Member of the House of Commons when it was passing. He voted for it without thinking, and many Debates and much valuable time were wasted. He understood this policy, but, as it was worked at the present time, it had serious disadvantages. At the present time with the tendency which the State showed to interpose in all the functions and departments of civil life, the more and more Bills had to be dealt with and interpreted by unlearned persons, instead of being reserved for learned persons. Only, for instance, last year, the House passed, after great elaboration and discussion, a Bill for the creation of Parish Councils. These Councils were being administered almost entirely over the vast area of the country by persons
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entirely unlearned in the matter of Acts of Parliament. It was impossible to understand the meaning of the provisions in a Bill which created Parish Councils without having the 16 volumes of the Statutes at Large at one's elbow. How many people who had to carry that Act into effect in the various parishes had those 16 volumes at their elbow? But this did not end the difficulty. He did not think the Statutes at Large could be bought in small bits. You had to buy the whole series. People whose parishes did not exceed 300 inhabitants might avoid the expense. But in every parish of more than 300 inhabitants a 1d. rate must be levied to purchase the Statutes at Large, so that the Parish Councils Bill might be rudimentarily understood. The noble Lord on the Woolsack was engaged in reforming the local benches of magistrates. He was introducing to them a large number of excellent persons—working men—who were what were called self-made men. Well, the process of self-manufacture did not involve a knowledge of the Statutes at Large, and these unfortunate working men when they administered justice in Petty Sessions would have to find their way through these Statutes as best they could without the possibility of referring to the documents which alone would give them any indication of the meaning of an enactment. He admitted that though the evil was great the remedy was somewhat hard. His own proposal was a simple one—that wherever a section was referred to, for the purpose of modifying it in any way it should be printed in the Schedule. A solitary evil would certainly be increased—not a small one—in the printer's bill, and there would be a certain increase in the bulk of the Statutes at Large. But he did not think that that evil—whatever it might be—in any degree approached the evil of sending out laws to be acted upon by unlearned persons without the very elements of the information by which those laws were to be interpreted. In consequence of the steady trend of modern Legislation this evil was growing year by year, and he earnestly hoped the House would apply some remedy to it. If any other remedy could be devised besides what he had suggested he would be glad to co-operate in it. But the time
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had come to take some step in that direction.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he entirely sympathised with the object of the noble Marquess (Lord Salisbury). But two matters must be kept distinct in dealing with this question—the want of information by Parliament whilst a Bill was being passed; the other the supply of information to the public after a Bill had passed. As regarded the passage of a Bill through the two Houses all that the noble Marquess desired would be met by a memorandum which should embody the noble Marquess's proposal, that the sections should be set out and the changes made in the law pointed out. This was a note which might be carried out without any serious objection. But the other was a question of greater difficulty. When an Act was passed into law no doubt it was inconvenient that it should be only possible to deal with it and explain it by reference to another Statute. But he thought there was a distinct convenience in having a Bill passed in such a form as to show distinctly the change that was being made. If they were always, when they proposed to alter a section in an Act already law, to re-enact that section with the alterations, he thought the change being made would not so pointedly be called attention to, and those who had been in the habit of dealing with the Act in the past would not so readily perceive what alteration the Legislature had made. Therefore, there was a real advantage when they amended an Act, or section of an Act, in doing it so far by reference as distinctly to point out in the new Act passed the change that was being made. But then, no doubt, that left them in this position—as the noble Marquess had said—that they had to study a variety of other Statutes. He thought that the statement that 16 volumes of Statutes were necessary to explain the Parish Councils Act was the result, to some extent, of a vivid imagination.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut I have counted them.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe revised version embracing the whole of the Statutes would not run into 16 volumes.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI was speaking of the older Statues.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe revised version embracing all the Statutes would not contain 16 volumes. A limited number only of that edition would need to be procured to understand the Parish Councils Bill. So the expenditure would not be so considerable.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut they are much dearer.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, with reference to the difficulty of understanding legislation by reference he quite agreed that it existed. But he did not himself think the necessity for the change had been rendered greater by any change in the composition of the magisterial bench. He did not think the magistrates of the past had been acquainted with the whole of the Statute Book and able to apply changes without reference and study. Nor was he prepared to admit that they had been more competent in all cases to determine the meaning of a change in legislation than those who had been put on the bench in recent times. But quite apart from that he admitted that it was extemely desirable in some way or other to make a change. He should have thought that probably an improvement might be made by an automatic process of consolidation so that they might always, when a change was made in the law, have the Statute printed up to date with the alterations. But he did not propose to go into any suggestions. What he would invite the House to consider was whether the best mode of improvement would not be to refer the matter (the importance of which he fully appreciated) to a Joint Committee of both Houses. It was important whatever course they determined upon should be agreed to by the other House. In such a matter as this, which simply related to the form of legislation, the two Houses should act on a common agreement. Such an agreement might be arrived at by the appointment of a small Joint Committee of the two Houses—and a Committee existed already with reference to the Consolidation of Bills—and probably a conclusion would be arrived at which would carry out the object the noble Marquess had in view in the best manner after full consideration.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he had no objection to take to the proposal of the noble and learned Lord, 16 except that he very much preferred to have a Special Committee for this purpose. If it was merely to be put as a by-matter, to be considered by a Committee which had other and heavier duties to discharge, he felt certain that it would be smothered. The suggestion he made was one which did not enjoy the benevolent appreciation of draftsmen, and he did not feel it would have justice done to it unless a Committee was appointed for the purpose of dealing with it specially and definitely. If the noble and learned Lord would undertake to move for a Joint Committee of the two Houses, he would not press the Motion on the present occasion. In fact, he thought a Committee would be the best form of dealing with the matter; but he rather doubted the possibility of the remedy which the noble and learned Lord suggested—namely, that there should be automatic consolidation at each step. Consolidation was a very different matter from simply referring in an Appendix for the purpose of information to an old Statute. Consolidation involved the weighing again, for legislative purposes, of the words which you use, and often it was really hardly less difficult than a new enactment. If we were to resort to consolidation in the case of every small Bill that was passed, he feared that the burden would be too heavy for those on whom it would fall. This, however, was a matter for a Committee to decide.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had not the slightest objection to the matter being referred to a Special Committee.
THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he should like to point out to the noble Marquess, with whose object he sympathised, that if his Instruction or Resolution merely referred to clauses which were amended or repealed, he would not do much to diminish the number of volumes that would have to be referred to. Must he not go further and refer also to clauses from other Acts that were embodied in the Bill? This was a point which really involved the vast number of volumes of which the noble Marquess spoke.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he would ask leave to withdraw the Motion, and would request the noble and 17 learned Lord to undertake to move for the appointment of a Committee.
§ Motion, by leave, withdawn.
§ The House adjourned at Twenty-five minutes after Five o'clock.