§ The House having gone into Committee on this Bill, on the Motion of the Earl of MEATH,
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid: I would appeal to the Prime Minister to procure the adjournment of this Bill in order that we may hear the wisdom concealed in the breast of the noble Lord attached to the Court by whom these matters are considered. I hope so important a Bill will not pass without some consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government. Nothing 1367 could be more desirable than that everybody should enjoy a gymnasium and a winter garden, but when they are to be paid for by the ratepayers in the most heavily-rated city in the world, I think some consideration is necessary before we proceed further. There are also some considerations in connection with the Bill relating to the privileges of the House of Commons, but we may, perhaps, leave that body to take care of themselves. I should, however, like to know whether Her Majesty's Government are ready to accept the principle of the Bill.
THE LORD PRESIDENT (the Earl of ROSEBERY)As regards the principle whether winter gardens are to be provided for everybody out of the rates, that seems to be a matter of opinion with the ratepayers themselves. I think, however, that the noble Earl will agree with me that there is great inconvenience in originating in this House a Bill which deals, as this one does, so largely with financial matters.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI did not raise that. I said the House of Commons was able to take care of itself.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYThe financial question is, after all, the one which underlies both the points the noble Marquess has dwelt upon. I do see very great inconvenience in originating Bills of this kind in this House because it might lead to proceedings we should all deplore. If the noble Earl wishes to proceed with the Bill, he would have to print all the clauses which relate to financial matters in italics, and that would entail more than half the Bill being printed in italics and sent down in that form for the consideration of the other House, and I am afraid they would not be disposed to favour it in that form. It is not for Her Majesty's Government to oppose that course, but I would humbly suggest that it is not a course which is likely to end in the success of the Bill; and the noble Earl would probably be wiser if he got Member of the House of Commons to introduce it in that House. Whatever its chances of success may be in the present congested state of business in the House of Commons, they would be retarded and impaired by the Bill being 1368 dealt with in this House when it touches so large a question as the application of the rates.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that other Bills dealing with the rates had been introduced in their Lordships' House. The Lord Chancellor had now a Bill before the House which provided that asylums for inebriates might be built out of the rates. That was also a proposition which would have to be put into italics. There might be other good reasons for not acceding to the proposal of the noble Earl, and possibly their Lordships might be of opinion that museums and gymnasiums should not be provided out of the rates; but as regarded the mere question of form, he thought it was a perfectly competent and quite a usual course to introduce the Bill in their Lordships' House.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)I do not think it can be said that the Bill is out of order in the form in which it stands. It is perfectly true that in money Bills there are frequently one or more provisions which require to be printed in italics, but the peculiarity of this Bill is that the whole of it depends so much on the privileged clauses. Its object really is to enable something to be done by a payment out of the rates. That being so the question is whether it is worth while going on with it in this House.
THE EARL OF MEATHsaid that, after the remarks of the noble Lord at the head of the Government and of the Lord Chancellor, he, of course, felt bound to do what they thought right. At the same time it appeared to him that if the Lower House did not object to these clauses, and the officials informed him that that was the case, it was rather going out of their way to stand up for the privileges of the other House in this matter.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYI thought we had made it clear that we do not think the privileges of the other House are touched; but, as a matter of fact, as three-fifths of the Bill will have to be printed in italics it will not appear in a form that will recommend it to their consideration.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIf the money clauses are all put into italics 1369 —that is, nominally struck out of the Bill—it will then come down to a mere assertion that—
a winter garden means any garden under cover, of a size and design to allow persons to sit and walk about within it.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYThat is not a proposition we should wish to controvert. I move that the House resume.
House resumed, and the proceedings on the Bill were suspended.