Lords Sitting of 18 June 1895

CHITRAL.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary for India a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether Her Majesty's Government intend to lay on the Table any papers relating to Chitral, and, if so, what papers, and when?
*THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord REAY): Her Majesty's Government are not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject of the noble Marquess's question or to lay any papers on the Table.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Is my noble Friend able to tell us whether we shall have an opportunity of discussing the question before any final decision is arrived at by Her Majesty's Government?
*LORD REAY: I am not prepared to answer my noble Friend's question without notice.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: In consequence of the answer I have just received, I beg to give notice that on an early day I shall call attention to the situation in Chitral and ask whether an opportunity will be given to the House to consider any papers there may be on the subject before any decision is arrived at by Her Majesty's Government.

TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANKS.
Draft Regulations for 1895: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
EXTRADITION BILL.— [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Friday next.
MORTGAGEES' COSTS BILL.
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 156.)
LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANIES (PAYMENT INTO COURT) BILL.— [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  INCLOSURE (UPTON ST. LEONARDS)
  Brought from Commons; Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 155.)
WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to Order); and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.
SHORT TITLES BILL— [H.L.]
  ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES (CON SOLIDATION) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Read 2a (according to Order), and referred to the Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision and Consolidation Bills; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
  NATURALISATION (RESIDENCE ABROAD) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  MUSEUMS AND GYMNASIUMS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  The House having gone into Committee on this Bill, on the Motion of the Earl of MEATH,
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid: I would appeal to the Prime Minister to procure the adjournment of this Bill in order that we may hear the wisdom concealed in the breast of the noble Lord attached to the Court by whom these matters are considered. I hope so important a Bill will not pass without some consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government. Nothing

  1367
  could be more desirable than that everybody should enjoy a gymnasium and a winter garden, but when they are to be paid for by the ratepayers in the most heavily-rated city in the world, I think some consideration is necessary before we proceed further. There are also some considerations in connection with the Bill relating to the privileges of the House of Commons, but we may, perhaps, leave that body to take care of themselves. I should, however, like to know whether Her Majesty's Government are ready to accept the principle of the Bill.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT (the Earl of ROSEBERY): As regards the principle whether winter gardens are to be provided for everybody out of the rates, that seems to be a matter of opinion with the ratepayers themselves. I think, however, that the noble Earl will agree with me that there is great inconvenience in originating in this House a Bill which deals, as this one does, so largely with financial matters.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I did not raise that. I said the House of Commons was able to take care of itself.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: The financial question is, after all, the one which underlies both the points the noble Marquess has dwelt upon. I do see very great inconvenience in originating Bills of this kind in this House because it might lead to proceedings we should all deplore. If the noble Earl wishes to proceed with the Bill, he would have to print all the clauses which relate to financial matters in italics, and that would entail more than half the Bill being printed in italics and sent down in that form for the consideration of the other House, and I am afraid they would not be disposed to favour it in that form. It is not for Her Majesty's Government to oppose that course, but I would humbly suggest that it is not a course which is likely to end in the success of the Bill; and the noble Earl would probably be wiser if he got Member of the House of Commons to introduce it in that House. Whatever its chances of success may be in the present congested state of business in the House of Commons, they would be retarded and impaired by the Bill being
  1368
  dealt with in this House when it touches so large a question as the application of the rates.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that other Bills dealing with the rates had been introduced in their Lordships' House. The Lord Chancellor had now a Bill before the House which provided that asylums for inebriates might be built out of the rates. That was also a proposition which would have to be put into italics. There might be other good reasons for not acceding to the proposal of the noble Earl, and possibly their Lordships might be of opinion that museums and gymnasiums should not be provided out of the rates; but as regarded the mere question of form, he thought it was a perfectly competent and quite a usual course to introduce the Bill in their Lordships' House.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): I do not think it can be said that the Bill is out of order in the form in which it stands. It is perfectly true that in money Bills there are frequently one or more provisions which require to be printed in italics, but the peculiarity of this Bill is that the whole of it depends so much on the privileged clauses. Its object really is to enable something to be done by a payment out of the rates. That being so the question is whether it is worth while going on with it in this House.
  THE EARL OF MEATHsaid that, after the remarks of the noble Lord at the head of the Government and of the Lord Chancellor, he, of course, felt bound to do what they thought right. At the same time it appeared to him that if the Lower House did not object to these clauses, and the officials informed him that that was the case, it was rather going out of their way to stand up for the privileges of the other House in this matter.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I thought we had made it clear that we do not think the privileges of the other House are touched; but, as a matter of fact, as three-fifths of the Bill will have to be printed in italics it will not appear in a form that will recommend it to their consideration.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If the money clauses are all put into italics

  1369
  —that is, nominally struck out of the Bill—it will then come down to a mere assertion that—
  "a winter garden means any garden under cover, of a size and design to allow persons to sit and walk about within it."
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: That is not a proposition we should wish to controvert. I move that the House resume.
  House resumed, and the proceedings on the Bill were suspended.

  MIDWIVES REGISTRATION BILL.
  On the Motion to go into Committee on this Bill,
  *LORD BALFOURsaid, that as to the course the House should pursue in regard to this Bill on the occasion of the Second Reading after what fell from the noble Lord who represented the Privy Council, it was clear that whilst there were some points in the Bill which might lead to controversy, there was an inclination to accept its chief proposals. At the same time it was intimated that certain clauses would have to be changed in form. He had since had an interview with the noble Lord opposite on the subject; and the result of that interview was, that certain Amendments had been prepared, it being the wish of the Privy Council that they should be introduced into the Bill. Nearly all these Amendments were concerned with matters of form. The course which he suggested should lie taken now was that the Bill should be committed pro formâ so that these Amendments might be inserted, and that afterwards the Bill should be recommitted from subsequent circumstances. Points, which were matters of substance rather than of form, could then be debated in Committee of the whole House, unencumbered by details which might obscure the merits of the questions upon which discussion was desirable.
  LORD PLAYFAIRsaid, that the Government were prepared to consent to the course suggested by the noble Lord. The Amendments to be introduced that afternoon had been drawn up by agreement between the Privy Council and the noble Lord. At a subsequent Stage, it would
  1370
  probably be necessary to propose Amendments, which might not meet with equal approval from the promoters of the measure.
  The House resolved itself into Committee on the Bill, which passed through Committee without Amendments.
  On the Report,
  *LORD BALFOUR*LORD BALFOUR moved that the Amendments standing in his name be inserted.
  Motion agreed to.
  *LORD BALFOURnext moved that the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House.
  Motion agreed to.

  MIDWIVES REGISTRATION BILL. [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill Reported without Amendment; Amendments made; and Bill recommitted to a Committee of the whole House on Friday, the 28th instant.
  LOCAL ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) BILL.— [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  LORD BALFOURgave notice, on behalf of Viscount CROSS, that, on the Second Reading of the Bill for legalising marriage with a deceased wife's sister, he would move its rejection.
  House adjourned at Ten minutes before
  Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter-past Ten o'clock.