Lords Sitting of 4 July 1895

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TOWER BRIDGE SOUTHERN APPROACH) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered (on Motion), and agreed to.
FEE FUND OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Halsbury) acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid on the Table the Annual Account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords: The same was ordered to lie on the Table, arid to be referred to the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices.
IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
Report of the Commissioners, for the period from 1st April 1894 to 31st March 1895;
PRISONS (IRELAND).
Seventeenth Report of the General Prisons Board for Ireland, 1894–5;
PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND).
Twenty-seventh Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland;
QUEEN'S COLLEGE, BELFAST.
Report of the President, for the Sessions 1894–5;
LUNACY (IRELAND).
Fourty-fourth Report, with appendices, of the Inspectors of Lunatics for Ireland;
REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
Thirty-third Report of the Inspector;
BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (IRELAND).
Thirty-first Annual Report of the Registrar-General (Ireland) for 1894;
BANKING, RAILWAY, AND SHIPPING STATISTICS (IRELAND).
Report for the half-year ended 30th June 1895;
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
General abstract showing the acreage under crops, also the number and description of live stock, in each county and province in 1894–5;
CRIMINAL AND JUDICIAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
Report for the year 1894; with tables;
TRADE UNIONS (BOARD OF TRADE, LABOUR DEPARTMENT).
Seventh Annual Report, by the Chief Labour Correspondent, on Trade Unions (1893); with statistical tables;

RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
I. Returns of accidents and casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several railway companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ended 31st March, 1895, in pursuance of the Regulation of Railways Act (1871) 34 and 35 Victoria, chap. 78; together with Reports of the inspecting officers of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain accidents which were inquired into;
II. General Report to the Board of Trade upon the accidents which have occurred on the railways of the United Kingdom during the year 1894;

Fifth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding;
Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL AND TRAVERS FOUNDATION.
Statement of the estimated income and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers Foundation, for the year 1895–96;
COUNTY OFFICERS AND COURTS (IRELAND) ACT, 1877.
Account of receipts and payments under the Act during the year ended 31st March, 1895;
Account of receipts and payments in respect of the Land Registry, for the year ended 31st March, 1895;
BANKRUPTCY ACT, 1883 (PROCEEDINGS).
Account showing the receipts and expenditure on account of bankruptcy proceedings during the year ended 31st March, 1895;
COMPANIES (WINDING-UP) ACT, 1890.
Account showing the receipts and expenditure in respect of proceedings under the Act during the year ended 31st March, 1895;

HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE AND COURT OF APPEAL.
Account prepared in pursuance of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1875, showing the receipts and expenditure in respect of the High Court of Justice and the Court of Appeal during the year ended the 31st March, 1895;
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

CEREALS.
Return, giving any information which Her Majesty's Consuls in Austria-Hungary, Belgium, France, Germany, and Holland may be able to obtain as to the present prices in English money of cereals and of bread in the towns in which they are respectively stationed; together with a statement of the rates and import duties levied on cereals and flour in the countries named; Address for—(Lord Stanley of Alderley).
ROYAL PATRIOTIC FUND.
Message to the House of Commons for copy of the Report, etc., of the Select Committee on.
RETIRED SOLDIERS AND SAILORS.
Message to the House of Commons for copy of the Report, etc., of the Select Committee on.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER No. XXXIX.
THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of)THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of SALISBURY) moved, for the remainder of the Session, the suspension of Standing Order 39 (which precludes the taking of two stages of a Bill on the same day).
LORD CASTLETOWNsaid, he did not wish in any way to oppose the Motion, nor did he desire to resist the progress of the Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill, but, after what they heard yesterday of the number of concessions that had been made by the noble and learned Lord opposite with regard to the Bill, it must be left in a most complicated condition unless it were referred to a Select Committee or a Committee of Experts; and he therefore suggested that it would be wise to make an exception in the case of this Bill when it reached the Committee stage. There were two points which made his position a strong one. A number of Amendments had been put down for To-morrow, and these, with the concessions which had been already made, would cause the Bill to be of a very complicated character. Further, Mr. Healy, on the second reading of the Bill in the other House, said that he was prepared to have the Bill freely amended

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in this House. Another point was connected with the schedule of the Bill. That repealed a large number of sections dealing with municipal matters, and it would be difficult even for experts to find out what effect the repeal of those sections would have on the future working of the municipal franchise in Ireland. He would therefore ask the Government whether, when the Bill came on for Committee of the whole House To-morrow, it would not be advisable even then to refer it to a Select Committee of Experts on this particular question.
LORD HERSCHELL: I do not know whether the matter would not be more properly dealt with when it comes on To-morrow. Whatever the object of the noble Lord's suggestion may be, the effect of it would be to kill the Bill, and probably that is what is intended.
LORD CASTLETOWN: I have no desire to kill the Bill. I have always desired that the law of Ireland should be assimilated to that of England, and, in attaining that object, I desire not to kill the Bill but to make it intelligible.
Motion agreed to.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
Moved, That the Order made on the 28th day of March last—
''That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any Provisional (Order or Provisional Certificate shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 25th day of June next"
be dispensed with, and that the Bill be read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (No. 10) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 7) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 8) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 9) BILL.
  BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (PAISLEY) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) (No. 2) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; Amendments made; Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  BRINE PUMPING (COMPENSATION FOR SUBSIDENCE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. [No. 193.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL. [No. 194.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL. [No. 195.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 17) BILL. [No. 196.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 18) BILL. [No. 197.]
  Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
  Resolved,—
  That the promoters of every Private or Provisional Order Confirmation Bill which shall have been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which shall have passed this House and been sent to the House of Commons, or which shall be pending in this House, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than Three o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon, up to that period, be paid;
  That an alphabetical list of all such Bills, with a statement of the stages at which they shall have arrived, shall be prepared in the Private Bill Office, and printed;
  That such Bills shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than Three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed in
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  the case of a Private Bill by the Agent, and in the case of a Provisional Order Confirmation Bill by an officer of the department by which the Orders to be confirmed by such Bill are made, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session, and where any sum of money has been deposited, as required by Standing Order No. 57, that such deposit has not been withdrawn, together with a certificate of that fact from the proper officer of the court in which such money was deposited;
  That the proceedings on such Bills shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session; and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages;
  That as regards all Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills which shall have been brought from the House of Commons in the present Session, such Bills shall be allowed to proceed to the same stage at which they shall have arrived in the present Session, on the same conditions as those set forth in the preceding Orders in respect to Bills originating in this House; the declaration to be signed as aforesaid, stating that the Bill is in every respect the same as when brought to this House in this Session;
  That if any such Bill shall have been amended in this House in the present Session, the same Amendments shall be inserted by the Committee on the Bill;
  That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to any Private or Provisional Order Confirmation Bill which shall have been introduced into Parliament in the present Session, in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed;
  That all petitions presented in this Session relating to any Private Bill shall, if necessary, be referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session;
  That no petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on any Bill unless their petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present Session, unless that time

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  shall not have expired before it closes, in which case, in order to be heard, their petition shall be presented not later than the fourth day on which the House shall sit in the next Session.—(The Chairman of Committees).

  FIRES (FALSE ALARMS) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order).
  LORD PLAYFAIRsaid that, acting on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor, he had adjusted the proposed Amendments so as to embody the views expressed by the noble and learned Lord.
  Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

  INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIE TIES ACT (1893) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  FISHERIES (CLOSE SEASON) (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

  THE AREA OF BETTERMENT.
  *THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of*THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY) moved a Resolution providing for various Amendments in the Standing Orders of the House, which were only to apply to Bills not now before the House. He said it was not usually necessary for him to say anything in moving this annual Motion, but there were one or two points which he thought he would be wrong to pass over sub silentio. The majority of alterations made were of a technical and verbal character. The first point to which he wished to refer was a new Standing Order, No. 45b, which proposed to give some indication of what the limits of the improvement area under a betterment clause should be. It was extremely difficult to draw any clause that would be perfect in this case, but
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  he thought that there must be some such clause, and, until something better could be found, the clause he proposed would be some guidance to those who had to fix betterment areas. The main object of the clause was that the area to be fixed should extend a uniform distance on each side of the work to be constructed. If the authority which proposed to fix an improvement area were allowed to deal with the question exactly as they liked, it would be quite possible for them to make the line such as to exclude entirely anything that could possibly be worsement, and to include only those properties that would be clearly bettered. The proposal was, in the case of a street, that a maximum of improvement area should be laid down, and that maximum, for want of any better suggestion, was fixed at three times the width of the improvement measured from the central line of the work. There were cases in which there was no definite work contemplated, and in which it would be difficult to lay down any rules, and in such cases the Standing Order was so worded that the matter would be left to the Committee to which the Bill was referred. The other Standing Order to which he wished to call the attention of the House related to the London County Council Money Bills. There was at present a Standing Order in the House of Commons relating to such Bills, but there was none whatever in their Lordships' House. That was brought particularly to his attention by the London County Council Money Bill of the present year. He found in that Bill it was proposed, amongst a variety of other sums, to raise money on capital account to meet the expenses of the purchase of the undertakings of the water companies, whenever that took place, without any limit of any kind, without any maximum or any reference to any public authority. That seemed to him so contrary to general practice that he thought it hardly right to pass the clause in such a form. It was a matter of no inconvenience to the County Council, because it was obvious that the Bills could not pass this Session. He thought it desirable that there should be some Standing Order of the House dealing with these Bills, and he had

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  taken precisely the Standing Order of the House of Commons. Thus the London County Council would be in no worse position than at present, because their Lordships' Standing Order would be precisely the same as the Standing Order of the House of Commons. He had simply made the Amendments in it necessary to bring it into relation with the position of the House as regarded the House of Commons. That was the only alteration he had made, and in principle, and almost in wording, it was identical with the Standing Order of the House of Commons. He thought the House would agree that it was desirable that, in the case of these Bills, there should be some guidance to the House and himself in dealing with these Bills, which were of very great and growing importance.
  LORD HERSCHELL: As regards the last matter, of course if there are Standing Orders in the House of Commons relating to the London County Council Bills in these terms, there is great reason in the proposal to make a Standing Order in this House to correspond with them. As regards the other Standing Order, I cannot help thinking it is undesirable to pass a Standing Order which the public bodies interested have had no opportunity of considering. Such a Standing Order would have reference to all Bills brought in by municipalities and police authorities in the future, and I should have thought that it was only reasonable that they should have had an opportunity of considering its terms and formulating objections to them. At all events, so far as one body is concerned, I believe there is grave objection to the new Standing Order, and certainly it seems to me to be open to considerable criticism. It lays down a hard and fast line as to the limit of the improvement. It assumes that in no case can anything beyond that be a proper limit. That seems to me not to be founded on any sound principle, and therefore I should have thought it would be better not to pass it without further consideration. I venture to submit that it is only reasonable that we should at least invite representations from municipalities affected by it before we make it one of the Standing Orders of the House.
  THE PRIME MINISTER: It seems to me that the noble Lord, though very
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  careful for the interests and convenience of municipalities, has allowed to go out of sight the fact that this new jurisdiction seriously affects private individuals who are owners or occupiers of houses and lands. It imposes a new liability; and exposes them to a new risk. It gives to those who promote these Bills the power of drawing them within the mischief of them, a power which they never possessed before. Before this, the only burden which the promoters of Bills like these could place on the private occupier or owner, was to purchase his property, which was, of course, a risk which they would not undertake, on account of its onerous result to themselves, without adequate reason; but the power to place everybody within the liability of being supposed to be benefited by some improvement is obviously a power that might be exercised very recklessly, and the surveyor or other officer of the Department might sweep in property with very little regard to the rights of individuals, and thinking only of the municipality or persons moving in the matter. I quite admit that if we pass a Standing Order we should do so with full consciousness that it may be necessary to revise it another year, but of the two risks—the risk of inconvenience to municipalities and the risk of exposing the occupier or owner of land to unjust encroachment—I think the latter the greater. Therefore I should prefer to begin by passing this very carefully considered Order, and if the municipalities should think it defective in any respect, we shall always be ready to consider respectfully any objections they may have to make.
  LORD HERSCHELL: I move, by way of protest, to omit the new Standing Order 45b.
  *THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: It is very important that the Standing Order should be introduced before the coming Session. It is very likely it may require amendment, but it is necessary we should have some such Standing Order to guide us.
  LORD BELPER, as Chairman of the Committee which had dealt with the Bill just passed, wished to say that it was the opinion of the Committee that there should be some controlling power with regard to fixing the area of betterment and worsement. It was proposed

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  before the Committee that the areas of betterment and worsement should be the same. Without bringing any accusation against an authority like the County Council of trying to deal unfairly with those whom the Act affected, yet there would be a tendency to make the area include those likely to be bettered and exclude those who were likely to be worsened. It was, therefore, extremely important that no arbitrary line should be taken, and that Parliament should have some sort of control in the matter to see that no unfairness was practised on landowners. There ought to be some Standing Order which would give power to Parliament to control the area.
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, that the Committees would have full power of control. The question was whether it was desirable to lay down as a hard and fast rule that the improvement area should never exceed three times the breadth of the street.
  THE PRIME MINISTERpointed out that if the question were left to the Committees, the parties in some cases might have to incur unnecessary expense.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)doubted whether the Committee could exercise such complete control as the noble and learned Lord imagined, because if a Committee were to alter the area of improvement mentioned in a Bill, owners interested would have just cause to complain of want of notice.
  THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND (Earl CADOGAN)was strongly of opinion that it was desirable to define the meaning to be attached to the expression "improvement area."
  Standing Order 45b agreed to.
  Standing Orders amended accordingly, and to be printed as amended. (No. 185.)

  CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT (1883) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a Tomorrow.—(Lord Chancellor.)—(No. 191.)
  LANDS VALUATION (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Lord Tweedmouth.)—(No. 192.)
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed; and to be considered To-morrow.—(No. 186.)
  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Marquess of Salisbury.)—(No. 187.)
  FACTORIES AND WORKSHOPS BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Marquess of Ripon.)—(No. 184.)
  FATAL ACCIDENTS INQUIRY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Lord Tweedmouth)—(No. 188.)
  NAVAL WORKS BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(Marquess of Salisbury.)—(No. 189.)

  SUMMARY JURISDICTION (MARRIED WOMEN) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(No. 190.)
  House adjourned at a Quarter before Six o'clock.