Lords Sitting of 19 August 1895

Preamble
THE Lord FOXFORD (E. Limerick) chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Commissioners.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYacquainted the House that Her Majesty had (by Commission) appointed the Earl of Limerick Speaker of the House in the absence of the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Morley, the Earl of Cork and Orrery, the Earl of Lathom, the Earl de Montalt, the Viscount Oxenbridge, and the Lord Herschell.
The said Commission was read.

THE CHIEF ARMY COMMAND.

  LORD WOLSELEY'S APPOINTMENT.
  LORD MONKSWELL: Seeing my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War in his place, I take the opportunity of asking him whether it is true, as reported, that Field Marshal Lord Wolseley has been, appointed to the office of General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, and, if so, upon what conditions?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The MARQUESS of: The noble Lord will recollect that, just before the late Government left office, my predecessor, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, made a statement in another place to the effect that, on October 1, His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge would relinquish the post which he has filled for so long with so much distinction and with such devotion to the interests of the Army. The then Secretary of State took the opportunity of explaining to the public certain changes which it was proposed to introduce concurrently with the relinquishment of office by His Royal Highness. My Lords, those changes were of a very important and far-reaching character.
  246
  They affect fundamentally the position of the Commander-in-Chief, and of the higher members of the Headquarter Staff; and I think your Lordships will scarcely be surprised that we should have desired to have ample time in which to consider those proposals before adopting them as our own or submitting alternative proposals. Those proposals are still under our consideration, and I am not able this evening to tell the noble Lord opposite precisely to what extent we intend to follow the lines laid down by my predecessor. But I am able to make two announcements which may, perhaps, be of interest. One of them is that His Royal Highness will relinquish the chief command of the Army, not on the 1st of October, as was originally proposed, but on the 1st of November. This later date will, we understand, be more convenient to His Royal Highness, inasmuch as it will enable him to undertake certain inspections which he has usually made during the autumn, season of the year. The other announcement answers the noble Lord's question. When His Royal Highness relinquishes the chief command of the Army he will be followed by Field-Marshal Viscount Wolseley. All that I need add is that it has been clearly explained to Lord Wolseley that the conditions under which he will hold his appointment are still under consideration, and that Her Majesty's Government reserve to themselves an absolutely free hand in deciding what changes may be necessary in those conditions in the interests of the Army and of the public.
  LORD MONKSWELL: Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman, from a communication I have received from him, will, I know, be exceedingly glad to hear that the post of Commander-in-Chief, though under some different name apparently, is still to be retained, because that is in accordance with a memorandum of his to the Commission presided over by the Duke of Devonshire. It must not be supposed, however, because the post of Commander-in-Chief is to be retained, that Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman, who is, of course necessarily in ignorance, as we all are, of the exact conditions attached to the office—it must not be supposed that he in all respects agrees with the Report of the Hartington Commission, and, of course, he will hold himself quite at

  247
  liberty, when he is able to return to his Parliamentary duties, to make any criticisms in regard to the reorganisation of the War Office that he may think desirable.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
  Ordered, that Standing Orders No. 72 and 82 be
  suspended for the remainder of the Session.

  PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
  Ordered, that the Resolutions of the 4th day of July last for the suspension of Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills be held applicable to the next Session of Parliament in the case of Private Bills and opposed Provisional Order Confirmation Bills.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Standing Orders considered and amended as follows: Provided that the Amendments shall not be applicable to any Bill now before Parliament:
  Leave out Standing Order No. 12 a.
  Standing Order No. 134, leave out ("Local Board") and insert ("District Council.")
  Standing Order No. 139, leave out ("limits within") and insert ("lands in or upon");
  and to be printed as amended.—[No. 5.]

  LAND FOR MILITARY PURPOSES.
  LORD CASTLETOWNasked the Secretary of State for War if he would lay on the Table of the House all the Paper connected with the purchase of Kilworth and adjoining lands in Co. Cork for military purposes? In explanation of the matter, the noble Lord said that some two or three years ago attempts were being made in the neighbourhood of Fermoy and Kilworth, Co. Cork, to purchase land for manœuvring purposes He was much interested in the matter, having been a soldier, and having certain experience and also local knowledge of
  248
  the ground examined for the purpose. He was particularly anxious that the War Office should acquire the ground at as reasonable a rate as possible, consistently with the rights of the landlords and occupiers, but most important of all was that the best ground should be obtained. He saw the late Under Secretary, Lord Sandhurst, on the subject. He urged him not to allow the matter to be unduly hurried on, as he had reason to think that the War Office was not being very wisely counselled locally, and was in treaty for the most expensive ground, and what was considered by experts the worst ground for the purpose. The noble Lord promised to look into the matter, but nothing was done. On his return from India last May, he found to his dismay that the purchase was almost, if not actually, completed, and his object in moving now, was simply to draw attention to the facts. He was also desirous to find out the legal costs incurred, and to compare them with costs of a similar nature dealing with the compulsory purchase of cottages under the Labourers' Act.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE,in reply, stated that the purchase of the Kilworth site had been decided upon before he assumed his present office, and he had only been able to make a somewhat hurried perusal of the rather voluminous papers which relate to the subject. He did not think it would be desirable to lay all the papers on the Table, but, if his noble Friend would give him an idea privately what were the particular documents which he would like to have, he would do his best to produce them. The purchase of this particular site was, he found, first suggested by the General Officer Commanding in Cork District in 1891. He had manœuvred over the ground and formed a very high opinion of it on account of its suitableness for maoelig;uvres and also because of the facilities which it offered for rifle ranges. The ground was inspected by the Royal Engineers and also by the Medical Officers. It was reported that some parts of it were somewhat boggy, but that about 95 acres on the west side were well suited for camping ground. There was an excellent water supply and the elevation was good, and

  249
  there was room for a safe rifle range for three battalions, and three other safe sites for field firing. Lord Wolseley reported upon the site in 1892, after a personal inspection, to the effect that he considered it most suitable for manœuvring, not suitable for the training of a large force of cavalry, but very suitable for the efficient instruction of a small force. Lord Wolseley also dwelt on the excellence of the water supply and the roads, and he appeared to have recommended that the site should be acquired. With regard to the cost of the transaction, he was not able to tell his noble Friend anything as to the legal costs, but he found that the original estimate of the value of the property, made on the basis of voluntary sale, was somewhere about £21,000. The necessary steps were taken for acquiring the property under the Defence Act, but he had ascertained that the late Government were reluctant to sanction any course that involved the compulsory acquisition of the tenants' interest. It therefore became necessary for the Crown Solicitor and the Chief Engineer to meet the tenants and to make the best bargain with them of which the circumstances admitted. The result was that the tenants' interests were bought for a sum of £9,717. That sum included something on account of the growing crops which were upon the land, and no doubt that was a proper arrangement. He found that the owners had not yet been settled with for their interests. Their interests included a certain amount of compensation for timber, but the whole cost, for a property which included some 6,000 acres, was expected to reach a sum of between £ 23,000 and £ 24,000.
  LORD CASTLETOWN,while thanking Lord Lansdowne, said the point ho wished to lay stress upon was that alternative sites placed before the Government were not dealt with, and that if local knowledge and local expert guidance had been utilised in looking into the alternative lands, a better and cheaper site could have been found.
  THE MAEQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid he was advised that the alternative sites were not quite suitable for manœuvring purposes.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  The following Bills (pursuant to the Resolutions of the 4th of July last respecting Provisional Order Confirmation Bills) were brought from the Commons; read 1a; referred to the Examiners; and to be read 2a on Thursday next—(The Lord Harris)
  BRINE PUMPING (COMPENSATION FOR SUBSIDENCE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 10) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 15) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 16) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 17) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 18) BILL.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read la, and (pursuant to the Resolutions of the 4th of July last respecting Provisional Order Confirmation Bills) read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.—(The Lord Harris.)
  House adjourned at Ten minutes before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.