Lords Sitting of 8 April 1895

LORD DECIES (CLAIM TO VOTE FOR REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND).
Ordered and directed—
That a Certificate be sent by the Clerk of the Parliaments to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, stating that the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has reported to the House of Lords that the right of the Lord Decies to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of him, the said Lord Chancellor; and that the House of Lords has ordered such Report to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
And it is hereby also ordered—
That the said Report of the said Lord Chancellor be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.
List of school districts in England and Wales, with the Standards fixed by the By-laws of each district, revised to 1st March, 1895:
Presented (by command), and ordered to be on the Table.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
The following Bills were presented by Lord Carrington (for Lord Playfair), read 1a, and ordered to be printed:—
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WESTON-SUPER-MARE) BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 68.)
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for Weston-super-Mare to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BRISTOL) BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 69.)
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary
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Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for Bristol to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (LEEDS) BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 70.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for Leeds to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts.
COLONIAL APPEALS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): I wish to give notice, on behalf of the Prime Minister, that on an early day after the Easter Recess he will introduce a Bill to enable Colonial Judges to take their seats on the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

CHITRAL.
LORD ASHBOURNEasked was there any further news from Chitral?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord REAY): The following telegram has just been received:—
"From Viceroy, 8th April, 1895.
"Low reports, 7th, strong opposition to bridging operations at Aladand this morning. A large number of enemy crowned heights on the opposite side of river and fired on working parties. Umra Khan's brother was in command with a number of his cavalry and infantry. General Waterfield's Brigade, supported by 15th Bengal Infantry, advanced to force passage of river, No. 8 Mountain Battery, Royal Artillery, and Maxim of King's Own Borderers, co-operating effectively; then 11th Bengal Lancers made brilliant dash across river and attacked enemy, who had begun to bolt up valley. Eleventh pursued for miles, up to Uch, killing about 100. Fourth and 15th Bengal Infantry then forded river and occupied Chakdarra. King's Own Borderers, fording about a mile above, captured Umra Khan's fort at Thana with slight opposition. Our loss was slight—one sapper and few men and horses wounded. Camels are now crossing Malakand Pass; about 1,000 arrived Khar, 7th.
"Low reports First Brigade has shifted camp to site 2nd Brigade. Our casualties on 7th crossing Swat river were—2nd Battalion, King's Own Borderers, one man wounded; 11th Bengal Infantry, one man wounded; 4th Sikhs, two men drowned; Sappers, two men wounded. Enemy's loss was 150. Muhammed Shah, Umra Khan's brother, was in command of enemy, and escaped. Three Regiments Third Brigade on Malakand Pass. Convoy camels came through 7th April. Uch and Katgola Pass will be occupied 8th. Your telegram of 5th. Progress of wounded will be reported by telegraph as soon as known."

TIME-MARKS ON LETTERS.
LORD ASHBOURNE,in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government when it was intended to introduce the practice of indicating the hour of posting on the post-mark as in America and other countries; whether any commencement had yet been, made; and when it was expected that the plan would be in full operation—said, that the question which he had placed upon the Paper was one which attracted a good deal of attention among all classes of the community, and his object was to ascertain what the present Government were doing in regard to it. He believed that up to the year 1818 or 1820 the practice of marking the hour on the post-mark prevailed in our Post Office. Why that practice was given up he did not know, and he did not suppose that there were any Members present in the House who were old enough to recollect. The practice of marking the hour of posting enabled the public to check and control and trace their letters; it enabled merchants and traders to ascertain whether business correspondence had been posted at the hour at which it should have been posted; and it enabled private individuals to ascertain whether their servants had posted letters entrusted to them at the proper hour and at the most convenient pillar, a matter as to which everyone had, at times, occasion for some little internal doubt. Some 200 Members of the House of Commons had signed a requisition in favour of this system, which had for many years been in operation with enormous advantage in the United States, and had also been adopted by Canada and Australia. As an illustration, of its advantage he might mention that the day before he put this question on the Paper he received a letter from Virginia which brought the matter very vividly to his mind. From the marks upon the letter it appeared that it was posted at a certain small town in that State at 7 a.m. on March 20, that it reached the head office in that State at 11 a.m. the same day, and that it was received at New York at 12 o'clock at night. It was not till it arrived at our own metropolis that the letter failed to show any indication that could be made out by an ordinary individual as to the hour when it was received. His Friend Mr. Henniker Heaton, who had been
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one of the most vigorous and able critics on postal matters, and to whose influence and suggestions many of the recent reforms were distinctly owing, had drawn attention to this subject in the other House, and he was informed that during the last two or three weeks some advance had been made in reference to the reintroduction of the old English system. But, as to the progress of this reform, he would like information. He was informed that in two post offices in London the practice of hour-marking had lately been introduced to some extent. He believed that in the House of Commons—he did not know how it was in their Lordships' House—letters posted between 7 and 10 o'clock had the hour marked upon them, and he believed that some letters were marked in the same way at the General Post Office. He was also given to understand that in some large towns in England a commencement in the same direction had already been made. He desired to ask when it was expected that the practice would be in full operation over the whole of the United Kingdom. He was aware that there used to be a system in our Post Office of indicating, by means of some mysterious letters in the post-mark, the hour of posting, and that the index to those letters was stated to be in the "Postal Guide," but that the particular page in the "Postal Guide" had for some reason been removed. A gentleman who had taken a great interest in postal affairs, and who was not a sanguine man, had stated that he was afraid that, unless the Post Office authorities were more active than sometimes, the completion of this reform would take some years, and that it might not happen in the lifetime of himself and others of their Lordships. Perhaps, however, the noble Lord opposite would, in answering the question on the Paper, be able to allay some of the anxieties in regard to the matter.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord TWEEDMOUTH)said, that, in the absence of his noble Friend Lord Playfair, through indisposition, the Postmaster General had asked him to say that he had already introduced the system which the noble Lord opposite had so urgently pressed upon the House. The plan adopted was to mark in clock figures the hour at which the letter passed under the stamp. This would be

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found set out at page 41 of the new Postal Regulations. He could not tell the noble Lord whether the reform would take as long as he inferred before it should become general, but this he might say, that it was the intention of the Post Office Department to cause the system to become general as soon as possible. It was not, however, thought desirable to incur the very great expense of making this alteration on all the stamps in the United Kingdom at one and the same time. He hoped that the noble Lord would be satisfied with the assurance that the system which he had pressed for would be introduced as speedily as possible throughout the Kingdom.

LAND TRANSFER BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR,in rising to move the Third Reading of this Bill said: I did not intend to make any observations at this stage, the Bill having already been before your Lordships more than once, but my attention has been called to some remarks recently made with regard to it which, I think, require an answer and explanation. The President of the Incorporated Law Society has recently been examined before a Committee of the other House with reference to the expediency of appointing a State trustee, and in the course of his evidence he said:—
"The present idea is that the employment of the official trustee by the public is to be voluntary, but there is very little doubt, judging by our experience in the past, that an effort would be made to extend his employment in every possible way."
Now, this is the passage to which I specially take exception:—
"I see the Lord Chancellor, in his evidence before the Committee, objects to the term 'attracting business,' because it looks as if the official trustee would attempt to get business. The Land Registry was established as a purely voluntary system. In that capacity it failed; and, having failed to attract business, the officials have induced the Lord Chancellor in seven out of the last nine years to bring Bills into Parliament to make the use of the registry compulsory in a district to be named, with a view, of course, to make it compulsory throughout the country."
I am, no doubt, responsible for some of those measures, and I desire to state that these statements have been made under a complete misapprehension of the
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facts. The Bills which I have introduced have not been brought in by me at the instance of the officials of the Land Registry. My noble predecessor is responsible for the other Bills, and I have his authority for saying that, in his case also, no opinions of the officials of the Land Registry influenced his action. I have every desire to see reform and improvement in the transfer of land, but I certainly should not, at the instance of the officials of the Land Registry, and with the view of increasing the fees there, have put myself to the trouble of introducing measures such as this, nor should I have dreamed of inviting your Lordships to pass into law a measure of this importance merely that the fees of the Land Registry might be increased. Nothing of that has operated on my mind or, I am assured, on that of my predecessor in office. We have believed—we believe now—that a system of land registration would be of great advantage to the people of this country—to the owners, purchasers, and sellers of land—and it is in that belief that we have asked your Lordships to pass this measure through your House. I have, I own, very considerable sympathy with the objections taken by solicitors and others to what is called "officialism." Speaking generally, I do not think it desirable that the State should, through its officials, compete with professional people of any description, or that they should do the work which would otherwise be done by professional men. But I limit that expression of opinion to the cases where professional men can do the work. In founding this system, we are dealing with a proposal which solicitors cannot give effect to. A system of land registration can only be established by the State, and the State, in establishing it, is not competing with professional men, but is undertaking a work in the interests of the public—a work which it is quite impossible that professional men can give effect to. I have formed a decided opinion that a measure of this kind would be advantageous, and I think I can appeal to broad experience in its favour. Almost every country, including many of our own colonies, has adopted a system either of registration of title or registration of deeds; and in some countries—Germany and Hungary, for instance—that has been done after

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experience of the working of similar measures in those countries. I cannot doubt that what has proved beneficial in so many parts of the world, under so many systems of government and administration, and with differing laws, would be found applicable in this country also. The system has worked well in our colonies, and I have not heard a suggestion that it would be well to revert to the system in use in those colonies before. That appears to me to be an overwhelming body of testimony in favour of a measure of this sort. It has been said that the change would give facilities for fraud. I am not of that opinion. At least, I have this to appeal to—that in the colonies which I have referred to an insurance fund has been established. The calls on this insurance fund have been altogether without importance; and that, I think, affords one good evidence for saying that that apprehension is not likely to be well founded. The opposition to this Bill, no doubt, has been strongly urged by the solicitors in this country. I do not for a moment mean to indicate or to suggest, from knowledge or experience, that they are consciously actuated by any motives of self-interest. I believe they are perfectly honest in the opposition which they have raised; but it is a striking fact that it is only, as far as I know, from them that any opposition to this Bill proceeds. I have received many letters on the subject of the Bill. I have received many encouragements to proceed with it, and many expressions of a hope that it will be passed into law; but, except from solicitors, I have not received any note of opposition or hostility to it. No doubt there have been many suggestions for its amendment, and for the making of the system more perfect. Although I do not for a moment intend to say that the solicitors in their opposition are actuated by any conscious self-interest, yet undoubtedly some of them are very fully alive to the impression that the result of passing the Bill would be very disadvantageous to them. I have received from a solicitor in the West of England a letter, in which he reproached me bitterly for having invited your Lordships to pass such a Bill. He called my attention to the fact that it was to the solicitors of this country I owed my present position, because without their
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having favoured me with briefs I should not have occupied it; and he thought it a very poor return for this that I should strive to work a deadly injury by such a measure. I believe that this impression is exaggerated, but, nevertheless, one finds in certain quarters those who entertain it, and it accounts for a certain amount of opposition, unconsciously dictated, no doubt, by feelings of that description. Of course I do not pretend that this measure is perfect. It is intended, in the first instance, to be tentative only. There are already two counties in England where registration of deeds is compulsory; and I think everyone is agreed that it is a system which has not proved altogether satisfactory in its working. The object of the Bill is to enable a trial to be made of the system of registration of title in lieu of registration of deeds, and it is a system justified by the experience of other countries and of our colonies. I believe that when the system comes into operation it will be found to be very beneficial. One word as to the observation that the Bill is being introduced because land registry under a voluntary system had failed to attract business. I do not think that is altogether an accurate description. There has been a very considerable amount of land registration in the land register under a voluntary system; but I think this is an instance in which it is impossible to conclude that the fact that a small amount of land has been, registered has resulted from dissatisfaction with the system. The truth is that those who, I believe, would be benefited by the system—namely, the owners of land—have been largely unaware of the advantages of the measure. They purchase a piece of land, or some transaction takes place with reference to land; they leave the whole matter to be carried out by the solicitors; and the fact that there is a land registry, and that the land might be registered occurs in truth to very few owners indeed. I have already quoted my own case. I purchase a small piece of land. I should have been glad if such a measure as this had been in force, where, as a matter of course, the land passed on the register in consequence of the transaction; but one has many things to think about, and the idea of the land register

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only occurred to me when the transaction was in progress. Therefore, all I venture to do is to utter a protest that the extent to which the land registry has been used is no evidence of the extent to which it would be used if its advantages were known and realised, as I am quite sure they would be under such a system as is proposed by this Bill.
Bill read 3a.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I propose an Amendment in consequence of a suggestion made by my noble Friend Viscount Cross, in order to meet a point raised by him in the Standing Committee, and which I promised to consider.
Amendment agreed to, and Bill passed.

COURTS OF LAW FEES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR,in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said it had passed through the other House, and it was to enable the Court of Justiciary and the Court of Session in Scotland to regulate the fees in those Courts. The present powers for doing so did not appear to be altogether sufficient.
Bill read 2a.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The EARL OF KIMBERLEY)THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The EARL OF KIMBERLEY) moved that, as there was no business to-morrow, the House should meet at a quarter-past Four o'clock. At the next Evening Sitting, on Tuesday, the 30th, the House would meet at a quarter-past Four o'clock.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at Five minutes before Five o'clock.