COMMITTEE.

HL Deb 01 May 1894 vol 24 cc3-17

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

said, he had followed the advice of the noble Earl who spoke for the Home Office, and had put down Amendments replacing the age at 18 and the exemptions from gun licences which were in the Home Office amended Bill of last year, and also one to omit the subsection respecting women. With regard to the Amendments put down by the noble Earl, he thought that the Home Office Amendment respecting wholesale dealing was more explicit and preferable to his own. The Home Office had not been satisfied with introducing the ironmongers, many of whom really were gunsmiths, but the Home Office had thoughtfully re-introduced the marine-store dealers, many of whom differed little from receivers of stolen property, so as to ensure the Bill being again blocked by Mr. Hopwood, whose Liverpool experience of this class of shops showed that this was not merely a crotchet. The Home Office Amendments also struck out Clause 10. He did not know why, for a marginal note referred to the Poaching Prevention Act of 1862, which authorised search for guns or nets or other implements; and there was every reason why the police should search for pistols where they had reason to suspect an intention of murder or of suicide. He now came to the Amendment to strike out what he considered the most important provision of the Bill—namely, the permit of the Police Inspector; the only means of restricting the sale of pistols, for the tax of 10s. would not have much effect that way, and the Home Office Bill would only have the effect of slightly increasing the Revenue. Complaints had been made against the Inland Revenue officials, and they had been called supine for not having levied the Gun Tax on those who had pistols. But they were not to blame; the blame must be put upon Magistrates recently appointed by Gladstonian Lords Lieutenant who, in such cases, inflicted very light sentences, often without costs, so that the Inland Revenue officials found it more profitable to let offenders alone than to prosecute. It was not to be expected, therefore, that the Inland Revenue would contribute much towards enforcing this Act. The 10s. licence would still leave the sale open to all those persons who, by reason of their age, position, and occupation, were most unfitted to possess and handle pistols. He would therefore take the sense of the House if the noble Earl (Lord Chesterfield) pressed this Amendment. He now Game to the Home Office Amendment to strike out the clause prohibiting the use of toy pistols. The Home Office contention was that the clause was unnecessary, since toy pistols would come under the Act. The answer to that was that so long as pistols as cheap as those existed, and their deadly nature was disguised under the name of toys, so long would boys succeed in obtaining them, and even parents be foolish enough not to refuse such dangerous toys to their children. Therefore, those toy pistols must he extirpated. Since the Second Reading of this Bill he had heard of a town not far from London whore there had been an epidemic of pistols amongst the schoolboys. In one case a father had given his son of 15 a pistol. As he was a clergyman, he was probably quite ignorant of the danger of such firearms. The boy lost no time in shooting through a window, making a clear round hole in the glass; his informant was the mother of four children living in this house, and who might have been standing behind this window. On her remonstrating, the incautious father deprived his reckless offspring of this most unsuitable toy. He would read to the House another case from the same town which ended fatally, but did not become public. The air-guns in which the boys use shot cost 4s. 6d. each, but may even be bought for 2s. 6d. For some of the air-guns small darts were used. The account stated— This boy was shot with an old pistol loaded with slugs. It wouldn't go off when they first tried to fire it, and then went off unexpectedly while the two boys were handling it. The wound was on the left side of the head and the boy became partially paralysed, and suffered greatly for nine months. His mother said he cried for whole nights, and was much troubled with neuralgia. He died a year and a fortnight after being shot from abscess on the brain. He did not become an idiot, but could not always express what he wanted to say. There was no coroner's inquest held, as he lived over a year after the accident. It might contribute more effectively to the appreciation by their Lordships of the necessity of disregarding the selfish interests of those who traded in such toys and of suppressing them if the question were put to them, With what feelings would they regard any person who should supply such pistols and ammunition to their sons or grandchildren? The indignation they would feel should guide them to their vote on this occasion. He must say he had more hopes of the Prime Minister than of the ex-Prime Minister, for the former had boys of a, "pistol age," while the hitter's sons were older and devoted to scientific pursuits. He warned the noble Lord who had charge of the revision of the Bill that if he carried against him the clause with regard to Police Inspectors the Bill would become entirely the Home Office Bill without any difference. It would no longer be his Bill to restore, because the noble Earl would have recaptured the Bill and would have to put a prize-crew on board and either carry it into port or abandon it as derelict. That was how the matter stood. He moved that the House resolve itself into Committee.

Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Lord Stanley of Alderley.)

* THE EARL OF ARRAN

drew attention to the clause permitting the sale of licences for killing game by persons holding licences to sell pistols. It seemed a very remarkable clause, and he gave notice that he should move its rejection on going into Committee.

Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.

Clause 1.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, the Government proposed that Subsections 3 to 8 should be struck out, and that after Sub-section 2 to insert— (3.) A pistol may not be sold to or bought by any person unless he is licensed to sell pistols or produces on the occasion of the sale either—

1. (a) a licence or certificate authorising him either to use or carry a gun or to kill game; or
6
2. (b) a statement signed by him that he is an officer in the Naval or Military Service of Her Majesty; or
3. (c) a certificate from the Board of Trade, showing that he is a master or mate, or engineer, in the Merchant Service; or
4. (d) a statement signed by him that he is ordered abroad on the Public Service and is about to leave the United Kingdom for that purpose within 14 days from the date of the purchase; or
5. (e) a statement signed by him and attested by a Justice of the Peace that he is about to emigrate within 14 days from the date of the purchase; or
6. (f) in the case of a foreigner, a statement signed by him and endorsed by a consular officer for the country to which he belongs, to the effect that he is about to leave the United Kingdom within 14 days from the date of the purchase."

His noble Friend Lord Stanley proposed that a pistol should not be sold to or bought by any person unless he produced a full game licence or a licence from the Police Inspector of his district, for which a fee of 1s. would be charged authorising him to purchase the pistol. The Government strongly objected to that clause. In the first place, they were unwilling to extend the control of the police over matters outside their sphere as an Executive force; and, secondly, an Inspector of Police would always grant a licence to anyone who asked for it, in which case the provision would be useless, or he would exercise a discretion which the Government did not think a Police Inspector was the right person to exercise. Very few licences wore in the hands of the police—sweeps and pedlars seemed to be the only class they dealt with. A third objection to the noble Lord's proposal was that he was making one law for the rich and another for the poor. A man who could afford to take out a game licence would be under no police control at all, where as the man who could not afford to do so would be under police supervision. A fourth reason was that under the Gun Act, 1870, and even under this Bill, persons might carry pisto for a 10s. licence. The noble Lord proposed to interfere only with the buying. So that a man might go into a shop with another, who had a £3 licence, and might buy a pistol which he could give to his friend, who would then be able to carry it about with a 10s. licence. The Government, therefore, objected to the noble Lord's Clause 3.

THE EARL OF CRANBROOK

was bound to gay he could see difficulties in the wording of this Bill. In the first place, he doubted whether "pistol" could be so defined as to secure the objects of the Bill at all. They were described as being 15 inches in length. If that were to be laid down, it would be very easy for the trade to make pistols half-an-inch longer and put an end to the Act. With regard to the objection of the Home Office to bringing in the Police Inspector at all, nothing could well be more absurd, for instance, than that a Magistrate who did not take out a game licence should have to go to a Police Inspector. The police should not be introduced into matters with which they had nothing to do. The noble Lord's proposal was rather ambiguous with regard to a licence to carry a gun to kill game. Then with regard to the statement to be made by military or naval men, the shopkeeper was not bound to believe them, and the statement would go no further than that a man was about to emigrate within 14 days. Again, supposing that were true, a pistol would be sold to a man going out to a country where they were forbidden. All these difficulties would arise; but at present the Committee was considering whether Police Inspectors should be called in, and upon that point he entirely agreed with the noble Lord opposite.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I would ask the noble Lord whether this Amendment as he has drawn it is not a little in advance of our present state of civilisation? There is no provision for people who want to defend themselves. It is very hard, of course, but a robber is sure to have a pistol as well as the attacked person, but he does not take out a licence. As a test to the noble Lord I will put to him this question: Will he include in one of his sub-sections a caretaker or bailiff to a landlord in Ireland? If he will consider that lamentable event which we discussed the other day, he will see that the unfortunate caretaker had no pistol. If he had he would no doubt have defended himself against the masked men who put him into a corner and fired shots at him. Persons in that position, it may be said, would have that power upon getting a 10s. licence, but surely it is an oppres- sion upon poor men whose lives are in danger to tell them that if they are not rich enough to pay a 10s. licence they shall be liable to be shot by people who attack them. I am not prepared to move an Amendment, but I submit to the noble Lord that one of his sub-sections ought to include people whose lives are in danger if they have no weapon to defend themselves. If the noble Lord disputes that there is that danger, I refer him to the South and West of Ireland for an illustration.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of ROSE-BERY)

I do think the Justices might be authorised in such cases to grant licences under the circumstances stated just now by the noble Marquess, but he will perhaps allow the matter to stand over for the present.

* LORD ASHBOURNE

said, that licences were granted in Ireland, and they might often be necessary for protection.

Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, the Government proposed another Amendment in the clause, Sub-section 4, to substitute the age of 18 for 21. The noble Lord had an Amendment down to the same effect.

Amendment moved, in Sub-section 4, to insert— ("(4.) A pistol, or ammunition suitable only for a pistol, may not be sold to a person apparently under the age of 18 years, or bought by a person under that age").

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved to omit Clauses 5 and 6, and to substitute the following:— (5.) On every sale of a pistol the seller must enter in a book kept by him the date of the sale, the name and address of the purchaser, and the name, mark, or number identifying the pistol, and must either cause this entry to be signed by the purchaser, or keep for production, if so required, an order signed by the purchaser. (6.) Every seller of a pistol must retain the book so kept by him for a period of not less than five years from the date of the last entry therein, and must, while he retains the book, produce it for inspection by any officer of police or any officer of Inland Revenue on being so requested. These alterations were necessary in order to meet the case of orders sent through the post.

Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved to insert the following subsection:— (7.) This section shall apply only in the case of the sale of a pistol by any person in the course of trade or business.

Motion agreed to.

Amendment moved, in page 2, line 11, after ("age") to insert ("or as to any matter which he is required by this section to state").—(The Earl of Chester-field.)

Amendment agreed to.

Remaining sub-sections agreed to with verbal and consequential Amendments.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved, in line 19, after "gunsmith," to insert the words "ironmongers, auctioneers, and marine store dealers." This class of dealers was inserted in the Home Secretary's Bill last Session in consequence of strong recommendations made to him by the respective trades, and they were supported by the consideration that they were respectable bodies of men not likely to abuse the privilege. Ironmongers were, as a matter of fact, in many of our small towns the gunsmiths of the place. There being, in fact, no gunsmiths, ironmongers did the work. Very strong recommendations wore made to the Government on the subject.

Amendment moved, in page 2, line 19, after ("gunsmith") to insert ("ironmonger, auctioneer, marine store dealer").—(The Earl of Chesterfield.)

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved, in line 21, after ("a") to insert ("city or"), and in line 22, to leave out ("borough") and insert after ("council") the words ("of the city or borough"). This, he explained, was to include the City of London.

Amendments agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, if the noble Lord would bring up his Amendment upon this clause at a later stage of the Bill he would promise to give it further consideration.

THE EARL OF ARRAN

said, the Bill provided in Clause 3 that— The Commissioners of Inland Revenue may, if they think fit, authorise any licensed vendor of pistols to sell licences to use or carry a gun or to kill game, and may pay such poundage in respect of the sale of such licences as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, and shall deduct the poundage so paid from the proceeds of such sales before paying the same into the Local Taxation Account. He would be very glad to suit the convenience of the noble Lord, but he trusted that in doing so it would be understood that be would still be able to move its omission at a future stage. It was, of course, a most important provision.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4.

Consequential Amendments.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, he moved on behalf of the Government to omit this clause altogether. It prohibited the importation of toy pistols. If a toy pistol was capable of discharging ammunition it would probably come within Clause 14, which provided that— For the purposes of this Act every firearm not exceeding 15 inches in length shall be deemed to be a pistol. It was, of course, subject to all the restrictions of the Act, and he moved to omit the clause.

Moved, "To leave out the Clause."—(The Earl of Chesterfield.)

VISCOUNT CROSS

asked for a definition of the word "ammunition." These toy pistols did a great deal of harm, though they might not be charged with what was called "ammunition."

LORD ASHBOURNE

said, they were grasped by the general definition.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, the noble Viscount asked for a definition of "ammunition." He supposed it meant powder and shot.

The MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

said, powder and shot were not wanted for toy pistols.

VISCOUNT CROSS

said, they were often discharged by a spring.

LORD ASHBOURNE

said, the point could be considered in Standing Committee.

VISCOUNT CROSS

said, that the toy pistols which were produced at the Table the other day by the noble Lord were actuated by a spring, and discharged darts and arrows, which could hardly be called ammunition.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, their Lordships had an instance the other day of what formidable weapons these might become.

Clause struck out.

Clause 6.

* LORD ASHBOURNE

said, he was most friendly to the object of this Bill, and he sincerely hoped it would pass with the Amendments of the noble Earl who represented the Government. But it was obvious that this clause would require a good deal of consideration in Standing Committee. He would not propose an Amendment, but it was obvious that innocent people who were quite meritorious might be subjected under the Bill to considerable persecution and annoyance in many parts of the country—for example, in Ireland. He invited the noble Earl's consideration upon the matter in order that he might sot the drafting abilities of the Government to work. A man might be starting on a journey with the entirely legitimate idea of defending himself while travelling through particular districts, and it would be necessary for him to obtain permission from the police in each district he passed through. As the Bill was drafted, the man would require a mass of permits and would also have to find out who was the chief police officer of each district, involving upon him great inconvenience. Speaking for the part of Her Majesty's Dominions which he knew best, innocent persons might not be able while travelling to obtain a written permit from the chief police officer for the district. He would suggest to the noble Earl that the law in Ireland might be applied for Magistrates to have the power of giving permission to carry pistols or revolvers, so that people need not be put to the trouble of finding out the chief police officers in the districts they passed through. The form of drafting might expose people who had no evil intentions to much convenience. At present, under the drafting, even a General or a Colonel might not escape the risk of fine or imprisonment under this clause, and even the Prime Minister, the Lord Chancellor, or a Privy Councillor, might possibly not get off, and might be taken in charge if he were to cross a thoroughfare with a pistol in his possession.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

I never did.

* LORD ASHBOURNE

said, one could not tell what the Prime Minister might take to, as time went on and life advanced; but it would he a very awkward thing that even the Prime Minister would not be safe under this drafting. Of course, nobody would carry a loaded pistol merely for pleasure, and if the weapon were carried for an innocent purpose of protection, it was ridiculous that people should be subjected to a liability of a £5 fine or imprisonment not exceeding one month.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

I should have thought that the case of Ireland was dealt with under the Arms Act. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would sketch out the sort of itinerary he had in view where persons might want to travel over the islands adjacent to Great Britain with loaded pistols in their pockets. The noble Lord must surely have been thinking of another sort of pocket pistol.

LORD ASHBOURNE

said, those were more usual in Scotland.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved an Amendment providing that the section should not apply to any person in charge of Her Majesty's mails, and authorised by the Postmaster General to carry a pistol. This was necessary for the protection of the guards of night mails, who carried valuable parcels between such places as London and Brighton, Liverpool and Manchester, and the various towns in England.

Amendment moved, in line 14, after ("practice") to insert ("or to any person in charge of Her Majesty's mails andauthorised by the Postmaster General to carry a pistol").—(The Earl of Chesterfield.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

If it is necessary for the guards, surely it is necessary for innocent passengers. I do not know what the dangerous parts of the adjacent islands of Great Britain are, where mail guards might require protection; but if they do the passengers are put at a disadvantage in respect to them. It would be very inconvenient if a person travelling in distant parts of Wales or Scotland, finding the Government had given him this protection, had to get out of his conveyance at every 20 miles to get a new permit.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

I think this provision is meant to apply to guards of parcel vans, not of mails.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

But mails go by train, not by parcel vans.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

I quite sympathise with the views of noble Lords opposite with regard to the comfort of bonâ fide travellers, but I do not entirely take the apprehension of their point of view. I feel much more apprehension for the safety of the companion of the bonâ fide traveller who carries a loaded pistol than for that of the traveller himself. I knew a case where a man of very exalted position used to carry a loaded revolver, and would produce it and place it on the dinner-table to the serious discomfort and disquietude of his colleagues.

THE EARL OF CRANBROOK

said, if a man travelling carried a pistol he would require a licence in every district from the Chief Constable, but in the case of the Post Office guards the licence to the mail guard would carry him over all the highways he had to pass along. Surely it would be necessary to give him a licence which would carry him to the end of his journey.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)

I quite agree that the clause requires some amendment, but I do not think it should be frittered away. There may be cases, though they are very exceptional indeed, in which it might be desirable that people should be permitted to have a loaded revolver in a public place, in Loudon for instance, and there should be a simple means of obtaining permission in such cases; and also if a person carrying a pistol without a licence can show that there are circumstances which render his doing so reasonable and proper he should then be excused. Subject to safeguards, I think the Bill valuable for this clause alone, if there were nothing else in the Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

With regard to what the noble Earl opposite has said, I hope it will be enacted that in all public places the Chief Secretary of Ireland may always carry a pistol.

Amendment moved, in page 3, line 13, after ("practice") to insert ("or any person in charge of Her Majesty's mails or authorised by Her Majesty's Postmaster General to carry a pistol").

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7.

THE EARL OF CHESTEREIELD

said, the next Amendment was to make the period five years from date of release. Those words were in the original Bill of the Government last Session. This limitation was desirable, as it seemed an extreme step to inflict a life-long disability on a man in addition to the punishment for his offence.

Amendment moved, in page 3, line 18, after ("pistol") to insert ("for a period of live years from the date of his release").—{The Earl of Chesterfield.')

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, this was a saving clause for wholesale traders and with regard to the sale of antique pistols. The first of the two Amendments he proposed was necessary in order to protect wholesale dealers in selling pistols. Large importations of pistols were made from Germany, and pistols were often sold retail as samples by wholesale dealers. The insertion of these words was proposed in order to meet those cases.

Amendment moved, in page 3, line 27, to leave out ("for exportation or in the ordinary course of wholesale dealing; nor") and insert ("(a) for exportation, or (b) in the ordinary course of wholesale dealing with persons licensed under this Act to sell pistols").

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, the next Amendment was rather important. It was to enable private individuals to get rid in a lawful way of pistols they might possess; otherwise a person so desirous would have to become a pawnbroker, gunsmith, or marine store dealer.

Amendment moved, to insert the following sub-section:— ("(2) The sale of a pistol by its owner to a person licensed under this Act to sell pistols").—(The Earl of Chesterfield)

THE EARL OF CRANBROOK

said, this was only to apply to cases in the ordinary course of trade or business. It appeared that a person who had a pistol to sell would be able to sell it to his neighbour without coming for any licence at all. The Bill confined such cases to the "ordinary course of trade or business"; but if a man wanted to get rid of a pistol, under the second sub-section, as proposed to be amended by the Government, a person who had a pistol to sell might, if he chose, either present or sell it to his neighbour without having a licence at all.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, an Amendment of this clause for the recovery of penalties was necessary, as other punishments for the offence were provided, for instance, in Clauses 6 and 7. It was therefore necessary to provide a summary process.

Amendment moved, in page 3, line 35, at the end of the Clause to insert— ("And any other punishment imposed under this Act may be imposed on summary conviction").—(The Earl of Chesterfield.)

Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

moved the omission of this clause. It had been really fitted into the Bill last year, giving power to the police to search suspected persons. The clause ran— Any officer of police may search any person whom he has good cause to suspect of carrying a pistol in contravention of this Act, and may seize and detain any pistol found on any such person. The clause met with strenuous opposition on the ground that it was an undue extension of the inquisitorial powers of the police.

Moved, To leave out the clause.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 11.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

asked the noble Earl to explain how there came to be imposed a penalty of £100 upon the importer of a single pistol when not part of a wholesale consignment? Why should a returned colonist or a Civil servant coming home from India and not familiar with the state of the law be exposed to a fine of £100?

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, he really did not know. This was the noble Lord's own Bill, and he was best able to answer his own question. Why did the noble Lord put it in if he did not like it? He would move to omit the clause altogether. It met with strenuous opposition last, year, and would be of very doubtful effect. When a pistol was once imported, the traffic in it would be subject to all the provisions of this Bill, and nobody would be entitled to possess a foreign pistol any more than one made in this country.

Moved, To leave out the clause.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 12.

Consequential Amendments.

THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD

said, he had an Amendment on this clause which was necessary for the proper application to the Act of Scotland.

Amendment moved, In line 20, to insert at the end of the Clause ("'borough' shall mean a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh, and 'borough council' the provost and magistrates").

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Title.

LOUD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

suggested that the Bill should he entitled, "a Bill for increasing the Inland Revenue from the sale of pistols." With the Amendments which had been made upon it, the Bill was now entirely Mr. Asquith's Bill, having been replaced exactly as it was before, and he disclaimed all responsibility for it. He did not wish to be responsible for the children who might be killed next year with the weapons which had not been dealt with.

Title agreed to.

Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 40.)