FIRST READING. (Hansard, 19 July 1894)

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I would press upon the noble Earl that we should have sufficient time to make ourselves masters of the provisions of this measure, which I believe are very difficult and complicated. I will not now go into any question as to the separate functions of the two Houses in this matter, but it is quite clear that if we are to pass the Bill we should have an opportunity of understanding it, which I am told is not very easy. I trust the noble Earl will not think it an extravagant request when I ask that the Second Reading should not be taken before this day week.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
I rather envy the facility of noble Lords who will be able to make themselves masters of all the details of this Bill by this day week. But I do not think that it is necessary, for the purpose of passing the Bill, that they should make themselves masters of it, because I deprecate altogether the idea that the House of Lords has anything to do with Money Bills. Any discussion of it must obviously be academic, and therefore I should have thought "the least said, soonest mended" with regard to this measure. Of course, it will interpose considerable delay if the Second Reading of this Bill is postponed till Thursday, because it will put off the 354 next stage till Friday, and that would prevent the passing of the Bill into law for 10 days. However, I am not master in this House, and if the noble Marquess wishes it we will take the Second Reading on the day he names.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
May I be allowed to protest against the doctrine which the noble Earl has laid down, especially after what has already passed this evening. If the noble Earl will refer, he will find that, in the days of Lord Derby, a Bill dealing with finance was not merely discussed, but an Amendment to it was moved in the House of Lords. An important Amendment was moved, and a Division was taken upon it. At that time the Liberal Party had a majority in this House. They may seem strange to the noble Earl, but so it was. I do not know what the causes may have been which have led to an alteration in that respect, but the Liberals at that time had a majority in this House, and resisted any alteration in the Bill, they carried their view by a majority of 32. I quote that circumstance to show that, certainly since I was in Parliament, and for a very long time before, the House of Lords possessed, and did exercise its right to deal with the provisions of a Bill of this kind, and even, if necessary, to amend such a Bill. I do not, however, stop to enter into the law dealing with this subject. It is, indeed, very complicated. The noble Earl must, however, be aware that it has been laid down by Mr. Gladstone that the House of Lords have never admitted the privilege claimed in this matter by the House of Commons and has never abandoned its right to consider money Bills; and when the noble Earl lays down, ex cathedrâ, from his present place, such a doctrine as we have just heard from his lips, I am bound to point out what the actual technical form of constitutional right is in this House.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
I should like to know whether it is intended by the noble Marquess to affirm that this House has exercised the privilege within any time that we can remember of amending any Money Bills. I have always heard that this House could exercise the power of rejecting a Money Bill as a whole; but I have also always 355 heard it stated that amendment of a Money Bill, whatever has been the abstract right of this House, has long been abstained from. If the attempt to introduce it is about to be renewed on this occasion, I hope that the noble Marquess will give us notice of any Amendment before he moves it.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
That I readily promise to do. But to answer the question of the noble Earl, I would beg him to refer back to the year 1826. It is a year to which some of us can go back.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
Certainly; it is the year in which I was born.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
An auspicious year in every respect. In that year a Money Bill was attacked, and the House of Commons accepted the Amendment. If the House of Commons takes exception to an Amendment, all that we can do is to pass an Amendment which causes the rejection of the Bill. I am not expressing the slightest intention of moving an Amendment to the Finance Bill, and I do not know whether any noble Lord has any such intention. I only demur to the doctrine enunciated on the other side of the House, which appears to me to be unsound.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
I would remark, in the words of a predecessor of the noble Marquess, that a good deal has happened since then, and I should not be inclined to say that the Earl of Derby, with all his talents and ability, is the safest parallel to take or the surest guide to follow. He was the Leader of the Opposition at the time when the Bill which has been referred to was rejected in this House. I understand from the noble Marquess that he does not intend to propose any Amendment to the Finance Bill.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Not myself.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
Therefore, I presume all that we are asked to postpone the next stage of this Bill for is a certain amount of barren discussion. Is anything more than that contemplated?

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Are all speeches barren which do not end in a Division?

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
I think all speeches are barren which lead to no practical result.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
That remains to be seen.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
Then we will fix the Second Reading of the Bill for Thursday.