§ Parish Meetings and Elections.
§ Clause 36 (Removal of disqualification of married women).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNmoved an Amendment to extend to women all the qualifications which under the Bill entitle men to be or to be placed on the Register. He said, he did not propose in any way to alter the position of women as compared with men with reference to voting for local government purposes. Up to the present time the vote was conferred upon those, and those only, who were on the Local Government Register, and this Bill for the first time extended the power of voting to those who were on the Parliamentary Register. Tito result was that a vote for local purposes was given to owners, lodgers, and those enjoying the service 171 franchise. But women not being on the Parliamentary Register would not be able to vote in respect of any of these franchises, and thus for the first time a distinction was drawn between women and men with regard to the vote for local purposes.
§
Amendments moved,
In page 34, line I, after ("disqualified") insert ("by sex or").
Line 5, after ("on") insert ("or being placed on"), and after ("electors") insert ("in respect of any qualification which, under this Act. entitles any man to be thereon or to be placed thereon").—(The Earl of Camperdown).
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was not prepared to agree to the proposed extension of the clause. It involved a principle which ought not to be introduced at this stage, and it would, he thought, give rise to a great deal of confusion and trouble.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he conceived that the Parliamentary Register was introduced with the object of giving lodgers, owners, and service franchise holders a vote for local purposes. If it was right for the first time to extend this privilege to men, why should it be withheld from women, who bad hitherto enjoyed equal rights of voting with men in respect of all local concerns?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, the proposal of the Bill would involve no additional cost in the preparation of the Register. But if the Amendment were carried a new Register would be required, and its preparation and revision would make these elections much more expensive. Of course, it would be necessary to sec that voters did not get on improperly.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, hitherto their Lordships had had presented to them the argument of principle, but now they heard arguments based on expediency and cheapness. He did not think much weight ought to be given to them.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he, like the noble Earl opposite, did not attach much weight to the objection on the ground of expense. If the proposal was good, he thought they might very well incur the cost of carrying it into effect. But he had always felt that the lodger question was the great difficulty in their way. He did not know 172 whether the noble Lord had pictured to himself what canvassing would be if he put in the lodger franchise. He thought this was too wide a change to be adopted without reflection.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, as he did not propose himself to canvass, that objection did not affect him.
§ Amendments negatived.
§ *THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he thought, on consideration, that it was proposed by this section that the wife should vote only if she had separate property of her own. If so, he would not move his Amendment to leave out the clause.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that certainly was so.
*THE EARL OF WINCHILSEA pointed out that it was provided the husband and wife should not be qualified in respect of the same property, but it was not provided which of the two was to be qualified.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 37 (Register of parochial electors).
*LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHsaid, he had on the Paper several Amendments consequential on the proposal he made on Clause 1, to eliminate the Parliamentary franchise from the Bill. In consequence of the decision at which the House had arrived with regard to the compound householder, ho would not again raise the question upon Report. He would, therefore, withdraw the Amendments in his name.
§ Amendments (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Verbal Amendment.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 38 (Supplemental provisions as to parish meetings), agreed to.
§ Clause 39 (Disqualifications for Parish or District Council).
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYsaid, Lord Herries's Amendment was merely for the purpose of preventing a farmer who desired to transport materials from being disqualified.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 36, line 33, after the second word ("or") to insert the words ("in the transport
173
of materials for the repair of roads or bridges in his own immediate neighbourhood, or").—(The Lord Herries.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYmoved—
In page 37, line 13, after Sub-section (4), to insert as a new sub-section—"A person disqualified for being a Guardian shall also be disqualified for being a Rural District Councillor.
VISCOUNT DE VESCIsaid, on this an important question arose with regard to the way in which medical officers throughout the country might be affected. Possibly medical officers might be disqualified from being members of Boards of Guardians or Parish Councils. He did not know whether that was intended under the Bill.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
On the Motion of the Earl of KIMBER-LEY, the following Amendment was agreed to: —
In line 27, after the word ("disqualified") to insert the words ("or votes when prohibited".)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, with regard to the next Amendment, that elected auditors were now subject to the same qualification as members of a. District Council.
§
Amendment moved,
In line 32, after the word ("Council") to insert the words ("and in the case of London auditors, as it they were members of a District Council").—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
§ *THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAasked whether it was intended to disqualify medical officers of a Board of Guardians, not only from being on a District Council but on a Parish Council?
§ *THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, the question was fully discussed in the other House, and it was quite understood that any person who was an officer of a 174 District Council or Board of Guardians was not thereby disqualified from sitting on a Parish Council.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 40 (Supplemental provisions as to Parish Councils), agreed to.
§ Clause 4l (Supplemental as to elections, polls, and tenure of office).
§ LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that this clause related to the election of Boards of Guardians. He proposed to add another to the six sub-sections fixing the scale of expenses. Clerks of Guardians were now ex officio returning officers, and their remuneration was fixed by the Local Government Board.
§
Amendment moved,
Sub-section (2). page38, line 41, after ("elections") to insert as a separate paragraph: "(vii.) For fixing the scale of expenses of any election under this Act").—(The Lord Chelmsford.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYgreatly preferred to leave the matter to the County Councils. There was nothing in these small duties which the County Councils could not carry out. Rates of remuneration must vary in different places. They might as well lay down that the police should have the same rate of payment everywhere. The County Councils could best decide what was the proper remuneration to be given.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Verbal and consequential Amendments.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 42 (Provision as to parish meeting for part of parish) agreed to, with verbal Amendments.
§ The following clauses were agreed to, with consequential and drafting Amendments:—
§ Clause 43 (Supplemental provisions as to Overseers).
§ Parish and District Councils.
§ Clause 44 (Public notices).
§ Clause 45 (Supplemental provisions as to transfer of powers).
§ Clause 46 (Supplemental provisions as to adoptive Acts).
175§ Clause 47 (Effect on Parish Council of constitution of urban district).
§ Verbal Amendments.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, the clause related to the constitution of new urban districts, and to their extension. It was proposed to apply it to cases where the area was diminished.
§
Amendment moved,
In line 34, at end of clause to add as a new sub-section—(",) Where the area of an urban district is diminished this section shall apply with the necessary modifications").—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 48 (Power to change name of district or parish).
§ Verbal Amendments.
§ Clause 49 (Committees of Parish or District Councils).
§ Drafting Amendment.
§ *LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHmoved an Amendment requiring a special resolution of the Council authorising the committee to act. The object of the Amendment was to give to the Council power to delegate before again meeting. If Her Majesty's Government thought it unnecessary or inadvisable to give them such a power, he would not press the Amendment.
THE EARL OK KIMBERLEYsaid, at present they could act without that restriction, and it would not work well.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 50 (Joint Committees) agreed to, with verbal Amendment.
§ Clause 51 (Audit of accounts of District and Parish Councils and inspection).
§ [See 1888, s. 71.]
§ *LORD DE RAMSEYmoved, after the word "accounts," to insert the words "showing all outstanding liabilities." He urged that it was necessary that not only the accounts but the debts should be published, in order that the ratepayers might understand in what position they really were.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, the accounts which had to be submitted for audit were very complicated, and he was afraid such a burden would almost 176 break the back of the parish officials. It was much better left to the Local Government Board.
§ *LORD DE RAMSEYsaid, he must take the opinion of the Committee upon this Amendment. He would quote one example in point. He was elected chairman of a Local Board in a parish of 17,000 acres. On looking into the accounts after they had been audited he found a very heavy debt existing on the parish of which nobody knew anything except the members of the Local Board. As these new bodies were to have powers of expenditure it would be rather hard on the parishes that they should not know what their liabilities were.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 45, line 21, after the word ("accounts") to insert ("showing all outstanding liabilities").—(The Lord De Ramsey.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that would be a proper matter upon which to communicate with the Local Government Board, pointing out that an alteration in the form was advisable.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKthought it was not at all a matter of form, but very much of substance, and he hoped the noble Lord would press it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 52 (Supplemental provisions as to District Councils), agreed to.
§ Miscellaneous.
§ Clause 53 (Supplemental provisions as to Guardians).
*THE EARL OF ONSLOWmoved to insert a sub-section empowering the Council of each county by order to direct that in any rural sanitary district within their county the District Councillors for any parish or other area should not be the representatives of that parish or other area on the Board of Guardians, and that there should be for such parish or area such separate election of Guardians as is provided by Section 20. He urged that power ought to be given to the County Councils in populous districts to decide that Rural Sanitary Authorities and Boards of Guardians should be elected separately. The only alternative would be for the County Councils to create small Local Boards. These bodies were not very wealthy, and were unable 177 to pay officials to adequately perform the duties required.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYcould not agree to the Amendment, as it was contrary to the scheme of the Bill, He observed that both trouble and expense would be saved by having these bodies elected at the same election. It was not desirable to have a number of consecutive elections, and it was one of the objects which Her Majesty's Government had in view not to burden the country with an undue number of them. The cardinal point was to elect at the same time members of the District Councils and Boards of Guardians.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Verbal Amendments.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 54 (Place of meeting of Parish or District Council or Board of Guardians).
*THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONmoved to leave out the clause. He said, that their Lordships would recollect that during the progress of the Bill the Lord President of the Council had from time to time taken as his text, "I trust the people." So did he himself trust the people. But before the Bill had left the Committee the noble Earl had shown that he did not trust the people. That only showed—and he did not mean to say that the remark applied to the noble Earl alone—how hard it was for men to practise what they preached. One would think from the clause that those who formed Parish and District Councils, if they met in a public-house, must get drunk. He trusted the people too much to think that that would be the ease. These people, the noble Earl had told them, would be respectable persons, and would properly perform their duty. It was rather hard, therefore, for the noble Earl to come forward now and say there was only one thing in which he could not trust them, and that was their sobriety; that, excellent men of business though they might be, they would all get. intoxicated, and that the business of the parish would be to that extent neglected. He was quite content to leave it to the good sense, good feeling, and good manners of these people to act in the way the noble Earl had so often said they would act on all occasions.
§ Moved, to leave out the clause.—(The Duke of Richmond and Gordon.)
THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKsaid, he did not think the clause implied such distrust as the noble Duke suggested, or any suspicion that the members of those Councils could not meet in a public-house without getting drunk. There was no doubt that a very strong feeling prevailed among a large number of the working classes that the public-house was an unsuitable place for such meetings, and many of them would feel a considerable difficulty in going to the public-house after having taken, perhaps, a strong line in support of the temperance movement. He was not a teetotaler himself. Their Lordships would be very much mistaken in supposing that the temperance question was one which was prominent only in the minds of a few enthusiastic persons. No doubt there were public-houses which were extremely well conducted, and which naturally served as the gathering place of the village, and where very few incidents occurred such as the noble Duke had suggested and contemplated. At the same time, he thought that, on the whole, their Lordships would act wisely in excluding the public-house from being the natural place of meeting for these new bodies. He thought it would be an anomalous thing to adopt the Amendment, and he hoped their Lordships would retain the clause as it stood.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he would not enter into the general temperance question. He quite agreed with the Archbishop of York that there was a large body of working men who held strong views on temperance. It was to a great extent a geographical question. He did not believe that in the South of England, or even in London, that feeling was at all strong, though, no doubt, it was very strong in the northern parts of the country. If he were in favour of the absolute prohibition of alcohol, which he certainly was not, he did not think he could vote for the clause. It seemed to him a grave insult to the class of persons whom they expected to be elected to those Councils that, whereas every other body might meet, and did meet, at public-houses, the Government selected them for special brand as people who were particularly 179 liable to succumb to temptation. Surely all classes of persons in many parts of the country habitually used public-houses without evil results for meetings of this kind. Friendly Societies of all kinds constantly met in public - houses. Licensed premises were not always coincident with public-houses, but included large hotels, which frequently contained large rooms used for the holding of public meetings. He had himself often presided over railway meetings held on licensed premises, such as the Cannon Street Hotel and the Charing Cross Hotel. Numberless clubs in London of various kinds held their meetings on licensed premises. The noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was, like himself, a member of a literary club—the Roxburghe Club—which always held its meetings on licensed premises.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY)said, he thought it met at the residence of the noble Marquess.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, only once, and he did not get a licence in consequence. He certainly had met the noble Earl on licensed premises, and was afraid he could not get off in that way. His noble Friend Lord Norton was the secretary of a Society which always met on licensed premises.
§ LORD KNUTSFORDSo is Lord Kimberley.
§ LORD ASHBOURNEAnd Lord Herschell.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, in no other class of society bad they ever dreamt either of forbidding, or of making it a matter of stigma, to meet on licensed premises for the transaction of such business as they needed. It was reserved for those particular people to whom they were now to entrust the great interests that were concerned in the government of their parishes and Unions. It was a grave insult to them, and he was sure it would be felt so in many parts of the country. But there was something besides the sentimental question; there was also the practical question. The public-house, or the hotel, was very often the most suitable place for meeting. Power, no doubt, was given to meet in schools, but schools, though very well suited for public meetings, were very badly suited for meetings of Boards. They could only get the use of schools 180 on Saturdays, when the farmers were often at market, and it would be very inconvenient to hold the meetings of these Councils on that day. Besides, there was this further disadvantage—that they would have to clear away the benches and desks, bring in a table and chairs, and perhaps lay down a carpet, and all this would have to be done and cleared away on the same day, when perhaps there might be close by in a railway hotel or in a public-house a room which was perfectly convenient for the purpose. He hoped their Lordships would not retain the clause.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that the noble Marquess had rather changed his ground on this question in his very temperate and moderate speech. The other night he spoke of those who supported the clause as being actuated by "a Puritanical hypocrisy."
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was referring to particular speakers.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYdid not know who the speakers were. The noble Marquess certainly gave the general impression that he intended to express himself very severely. His present ground was very remarkable indeed, because he now said that the clause was an insult to all those who would be elected on these Councils. Then it must be supposed that it was an insult to Parliamentary candidates, who were not allowed to hold meetings at a public-house. He ventured to think that if they were to reject the clause on the ground that it would be an insult to the working classes, a very short time indeed would elapse before their Lordships would find out that a very large body of the working classes would regard it as an insult, not that the clause had been inserted, but that it had been struck out. The Archbishop of York had in his wise and temperate speech clearly explained the grounds on which this clause should be supported even by temperance advocates. Ho disclaimed altogether any peculiar or special sympathy with teetotalers or with those who entirely abstained from alcoholic liquors. He had never been a member of any Society for that purpose and did not share their views; but, on the other hand, he felt great respect for, and great sympathy with, those large numbers of the working 181 classes who were suffering from evils totally unknown to their Lordships, who felt the risk to their own children, and who were far better able to judge than their Lordships what it was desirable for them to avoid, and who were, therefore, desirous that a temptation which they regarded as so dangerous should be put as little as possible in the way of themselves and their friends. They all wished, of course, that those meetings should always be orderly, respectable, and conducted in such a manner as could be approved by all, and he was perfectly certain that if there was one clause in the Bill which was, on the whole, desired by the respectable part of the population of this country it was the clause they were now considering. He earnestly hoped their Lordships would not commit what he believed would be a most grievous error in rejecting the clause.
§ *THE EARL of SELBORNEsaid, he hoped the noble Duke would not press his Amendment. He could not see any serious practical objection to the clause, because it contained the words
except in cases where, no other suitable rooms were available.None of their Lordships would think it a, bad thing that payment of Saturday wages in public-houses should be prohibited when it could possibly take place anywhere else. The clause practically applied to the Parish Councils only: because, though Guardians and District Councils also were mentioned, the Hoards of Guardians, and the District. Councillors who were identical with them, would probably meet, as had been usual, in the workhouses. The reason for the clause would apply not so much to the members of the Councils, but to the people who might be in attendance, most of whom might belong to the poorer classes. The danger might not be very great, but he could not see, any serious practical objection to the clause worded as it was, and it would not be wise for their Lordships to differ on this point from the other House.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he should greatly regret this clause being taken out of the Bill. There was a strong feeling in those parts of the country with which be was connected against giving official sanction to the use of public-houses for the purposes of the meetings of the Parish Councils. Al- 182 though he did not share the fears that were entertained by some people as to the evils that were likely to arise from holding these meetings in public-houses, still upon the whole ho thought that it would be the wiser course to retain the clause in the Hill. In these circumstances, ho should be unable to vote for the Amendment which had been moved by the noble Duke, but must vote with the Government.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKtook much the same view. It was only a proviso for the use of a. room in case of necessity where no other proper place could be found. That was as far as it was necessary to go.
§ *LORD KNUTSFORDasked whether it was thought that parish meetings would be free from temptation? Because this clause only applied to District and Parish Councils.
*THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble and learned Earl opposite and from the noble Earl near him, he felt that he should not be justified in pressing his Motion to a Division. He therefore begged to withdraw it.
*THE BISHOP OF LONDONwished to point out that the feeling with regard to this clause was exceedingly strong in some parts of the country. There had been no idea in the minds of those who advocated the insertion of this clause to insult the members of the Parish Councils, but there wore among the classes of men who would necessarily be elected upon those Councils not a few who would deem it exceedingly objectionable to be obliged to attend meetings of the Councils in public-houses, some who would abstain from taking part in them altogether. It was only just that the feelings of such persons should be considered. Many respectable, members of the artisan class felt so strongly in reference to these matters that they would feel it, a great hardship to attend meetings in public-houses, and perhaps could not be induced to attend them at all.
§ *LORD KNUTSFORDsuggested that the words "parish meeting or" should be inserted.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, there seemed a good deal to be said for the proposal, but it had better be left for the further stage.
§ *LORD KNUTSFORDsaid, he would move their insertion in the clause on Report.
§ Motion (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 55 (Permissive transfer to Urban District Council of powers of other Authorities) agreed to.
§ Clause 56 (Supplemental provisions as to control of Overseers in urban districts) transposed before Sub-section 5 of Clause 30.
§ Clause 57 (Provisions as to County Council acquiring powers of District Council.)
§
On the Motion of the Earl of KIMBEBLEY, the following Amendments were agreed to:—
Page 42, line 15, after ("virtue of") insert ("a resolution under.")
Line 20, after ("Council") insert ("and to the Local Government Board.")
Page 49, line 10, leave out ("members") and insert ("constitution.")
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 58 (County Council may act through District Council.)
§ LORD BELPERsaid, his Amendment was only to modify a clause which seemed to him to go rather too far with regard to the County Council employing the District Council in any administrative work.
§
Amendment moved.
In page 49, line 16, at end, to insert the words ("on matters arising in or affecting the interests of their own district.")—(The Lord Belper)
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)Ought it not, to be "its own district"?
§ LORD BELPERYes. Let it read—
Matters arising in or affecting the interests of its own district.
§ Amendment, as altered, agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 59 (Saving for harbour powers.)
§
On the Motion of the Earl of KIMBERLEY, the following Amendment was agreed to:—
184
In page 49, line 17, after the word ("commission") to insert the words ("affected by this Act.")
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 60 (Saving for elementary schools.)
§ *THE EARL OF SELBORNEsaid, he wished to put in after the word ("control"), in line 26, the words ("or endowment.") There might be a doubt as to whether the clause, as now worded, would be interpreted as extending to endowment. He asked the Committee to preclude any possibility of doubt by inserting the words.
§
Amendment moved,
In line 26, after the word ("control") to insert the words ("or endowment.")—(The Earl of Selborne.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKproposed to leave out from ("school"), in line 26, to the end of the clause.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 49, line 20, to leave out from the word ("school") to the end of the clause.—(The Marl of Cranbrook).
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 61 (Transfer of property and debts and liabilities) agreed to.
§ Clause 62 (Adjustment of property and liabilities).
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, his Amendment to this clause was to provide for adjustments under the Arbitration Act.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 50, line 24, after the word ("agreement") to insert the words ("and as far as any such agreement does not extend.")—(The Earl of Kimberley).
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 63 (Power to deal with matters arising out of alteration of boundaries.)
§
Amendment moved,
In page 51, line 6, to leave out the words ("or under.")
§ Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYThe next Amendment is to make it quite clear as to the powers to be exercised by 185 the County Council and that they should not be interfered with in certain cases.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 51, to leave out line it. and insert the words ("County Council desirable be made by the County Council. or, in the ease of an area situate in more than one county, by a joint committee of County Councils.")—(The Earl of Kemberley)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 64 (Summary proceeding for determination of questions as to transfer of powers.)
§
On the Motion of the Earl of KI.MISEK-LEY the following Amendments were agreed to:—
Page 51, line 14, after ("parish") insert ("or in a District Council").
In line 27, leave out ("decision") and insert ("determination").
§ LORD CLINTONmoved,
In page 51, line 27, after the word ("decision") to insert the words ("Provided that an appeal to the High Court of Justice from any decision of the Charity Commissioners under this section maybe presented only under the same conditions as are prescribed in the case of appeals to the High Court from Orders made by the Charity Commissioners under the Charitable Trusts Acts, 1853 to 1801").
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 65 (Supplemental provisions as to County Council Orders.)
§
On the Motion of the Earl of KIM-BERLEY the following Amendment was agreed to:—
In page 51, line 31, after the word ("Council") insert the words ("or joint committee").
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 66 (Expenses of Local Government Board) agreed to.
§ Clause 67 (Provision as to Sundays and Rank Holidays) agreed to.
§ Clause 68 (Provisions as to Seilly Islands.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, his Amendment to this clause was with regard to Provisional Orders applying to the Seilly Isles, and to provide proper public, notice. It was in accordance with the promise given by the Government.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 52, line 25. after the word ("Seilly") to insert the words ("and after such public notice as appears to the Local Government Hoard sufficient for giving information to all persons interested").—(The Marl of Kimberley.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 69 (Construction of Act.)
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, it seemed to him that a better definition of the word "parish" was wanted than was contained in the Kill.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYpointed out that Section (5) of the Interpretation Act, 1889, provided that—
The expression 'parish' shall, unless the contrary intention appeal's, mean a place for which a separate poor rate is or can be made, or for which a separate Overseer is or can be appointed.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYBut having the Interpretation Act it is inconvenient to repeat. There would he very little use in having an Interpretation Act.
§ *THE EARL OF SELBORNEasked their Lordships to omit from ("building"), in line 26, to ("the"), in line 30, and insert—
("which, or the ownership, trusteeship, management, or control of which is by its legal constitution vested in ministers or officers for the time being of any particular church or denomination, either alone or jointly with other persons.")The words which he proposed to omit were in great haste added to the Bill. There had been very great and salutary activity on the part of the parochial clergy of the Church of England, especially within the last 50 years. From the Returns laid upon the Table of the House, formerly at the instance of the late Lord Hampton, and recently of the Duke of Westminster, it appeared that for church building repairs and restoration only about £42,000,000 had been provided by the voluntary contributions of Churchmen within the period of 50 years. If all other kinds of expenses incidental to the parochial ministry of the Church were the subject of like computation it would be found that a very large addition indeed ought to be made to that 187 sum. The activity of the clergy had been very much directed to the association with the ministry and work of the Church of various kinds of institutions useful from a moral, though temporal, point of view to their people. There was not the smallest doubt that where the Nonconformists were numerous they had done exactly the same kind of thing and in similar ways. Thus what were called by those who established them parish rooms, by the influence and through the energy and activity of the clergy, had come into existence. Returns which some Churchmen had endeavoured to obtain upon this subject showed that of the number of rooms included in them one only was earlier than 1850; 9 per cent. between 1850 and 1860; 22 per cent. between 1860 and 1880; 48 per cent. between 1880 and 1890; and 20 per cent. between 1890 and 1893. The building of those rooms was going on still. Not much more than a fortnight ago he had been asked to assist in the establishment of a room of that kind. These rooms, though not in terms dedicated for use as mission rooms, or Sunday schools, or otherwise for religious uses of any particular Church or denomination, were liable to be used, and were from time to time used, for such purposes at the discretion of those who were constituted trustees. They were also used as clubs and reading rooms and libraries under the management and regulation of the trustees. That management always kept in view the moral objects for which the Church existed, and desired to promote the principles and practice of morality. Founders of these rooms had invariably provided that the leading share of the management should be with the parochial clergy, at whose instance the buildings were erected. They were really as much a part of the equipment, and practical working system, of the parochial ministry of the Church, as if they had been for purposes more directly spiritual: and not the less so, because Nonconformists might be admitted to participate in their use. These rooms had been not only erected and established for these purposes directly connected with the useful work done by the parochial ministry; they had not only been provided by the clergy and through them, but no doubt for the most part by the contributions of Churchmen; and whoever were the contributors, whether Churchmen exclusively or Churchmen 188 aided by liberal-minded and generous Nonconformists, (as similar institutions of Nonconformists might be aided by liberal-minded and generous Churchmen,) it had been the purpose and object of the founders that they should be connected in this way with the ministry of the Church, bearing in mind that that ministry ought always to aim at the temporal as well as at the spiritual good of the people. The founders had intended that this should he the constitution of the trusts of those buildings. Turning to the clause of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord said he was quite willing to give credit to those who introduced the words which ho proposed to exclude for a desire to do justice in the Amendment which had been made in another place. But it was done in such a hurry, with the view of accelerating the despatch of business in the other House, that he must take the opportunity of saying, however good the intentions of those who did it, they had been most singularly unsuccessful if the intention was to do justice. In the first place, while recognising the principle three conditions were imposed. The first condition was that they should go to the Charity Commissioners and have a sort of preliminary litigation, or inquisition, into the history of every one of these buildings, and until the Charity Commissioners had come to a deliverance on the subject the clause would have no effect to save one of these buildings. Nothing could be less reasonable. The next thing was that the building must have been erected and provided within 40 years. On what principle was it to be taken away if it had existed for 41 years? He saw no more justice in taking away what was erected 41 years ago, than in taking what was of later dale. The Returns he had referred to showed nine buildings erected between 1850 and 1860. To take away those erected between 1850 and 1853 because they bad existed for above 10 years was the most arbitrary thing conceivable. Then the Charity Commissioners must be satisfied of a negative—namely, that it had been provided and established entirely by persons of one Church or denomination. What an unreasonable thing to require that the Commissioners should be satisfied that no Nonconformist, no person not belonging to the particular denomination, had contributed to 189 it. The principle was a vicious one, and the practice would be inconvenient and unreasonable. Why in the world because a liberal-minded Nonconformist had contributed to a church parish-room, or a liberal-minded Churchman had contributed to a similar building used for similar purposes by Nonconformists, were they to take it out of the category of buildings destined to the purposes to which all the contributors agreed? On the face of a trust so constituted the connection with a particular Church or denomination through its ministers and officers was appointed. To say that this was not to be treated on the same principle as ecclesiastical charities merely because some individual who was not a, Churchman had contributed was most unjust and most unreasonable. He was at a loss to understand how anyone could stand up and say it was right to divorce these rooms from their present legal administration, and place them, wholly on in part, under a different management, merely on the ground that somebody who was not a Churchman contributed 40 years ago. And how was such a negative as the clause required to be proved, unless in very recent cases? These rooms ought not to be severed from the Church connection and treated as secular parochial charities. The new managers introduced under the Bill might refuse to allow them to be used for ecclesiastical purposes, and the discipline and regulation, having the material and moral welfare of the people in view, might be handed over to those who would not keep the same objects in view. He, therefore, asked their Lordships to assent to his Amendment.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 53, lines 26 to 29, to leave out from the word ("building"), in line 26,to ("The"), in line 30, and insert the words ("which, or the ownership, trusteeship, management, or control of which is by its legal constitution vested in ministers or officers for the time being of any particular Church or denomination, either alone or jointly with other persons").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid. he did not think the noble and learned Earl had quite sufficiently borne in mind the very strong desire which existed throughout the Kingdom that these parish rooms should not he reserved as ecclesiastical edifices, hut should be used for the secular purposes for which they were now used. The clause bad been very carefully framed for the purpose of 190 excluding from its operation all those rooms which were used for distinctly ecclesiastical purposes. But he was told that there were a very large number set up by Church people, which were put in the hands of the clergymen or Churchwardens for purely secular purposes, and it did seem hard that these rooms should be left as the appanage of the Church. He did not think it would contribute to the popularity of the Church if these rooms should not he available as they now were for secular purposes. If the limit of 40 years was indefensible, a limit of 100 years, or any other limit, would be equally indefensible. Some limitation, he thought, should be imposed to prevent the perpetuation of charities which had become wholly obsolete, and he did not think it was at all desirable that anybody should have the power to lock up property in such a way for an indefinite period. The concession of 40 years was a reasonable one, and the desire of those who framed the clause was to endeavour to meet the objection which had been taken. He thought, however, that there was a. good deal to be said for the objection that the clause was so framed that it was necessary that the building should be erected entirely by members of any particular denomination in order to be exempted from the operation of the clause. He thought that cases of hardship might occur, and that it would he rather unreasonable to push the matter so far as that, because it left no discretion in the Charity Commissioners, and cases might exist in which there might be some very small contribution by some person outside a denomination which really would not alter the character of the building. It seemed to him, looking at the matter generally, that some provision ought to be inserted in the Hill by which these rooms should he retained for secular purposes within the parish. A great number of these rooms had been founded for the general purposes of the parish, and if they were withdrawn from the cognizance of the new bodies rival buildings would be set up, with the result that great dissatisfaction would be felt with the Church. He should regret to see the clause eliminated altogether from the Bill.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKsaid, there was a great objection to the retention of the word "entirely" in the 191 clause, because on more than one occasion Nonconformists had been ready to contribute to the building of the parish church, which was purely an ecclesiastical edifice. If the word "mainly" were substituted for "entirely" it would go a long way to meet their difficulties, although he should prefer the Amendment. He could not agree with the Earl of Kimberley that a large number of these parish rooms were used exclusively for secular purposes, because in most instances they were also used for Bible and confirmation classes and other religious purposes connected with the Church. If they could secure all buildings used for religious purposes they would be satisfied. It appeared to him that the provision made by the Bill was quite insufficient to secure such buildings for the purposes for which those who erected them had in view. The proposal to exempt rooms of this kind from the clause would not hinder their use for secular purposes, for clergymen would, he hoped and believed, always allow them to be used for amusing and enlightening the people. He was not at all afraid of rival rooms being set up. He trusted the Government would consent to some modification of the clause, so that the word "entirely" should be omitted.
§ EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that some of their Lordships had not forgotten the scornful way in which pious founders and also posthumous gifts for various public and pious purposes had been spoken of some time ago by a very high authority. He did not think those who advocated this summary method of disposing of such gifts realised the effect it would have in discouraging gifts and foundations for public purposes in the future. The consequences might be very extensive. In England fewer sums had been left to benevolent purposes than in the United States, and legislation of this sort was not likely to elicit larger sums for these objects.
*THE BISHOP OF LONDONpointed out that the proposals of the Government rested upon a kind of clean separation between the social and the spiritual work of the clergy, a distinction which never could be maintained. Clergymen must have a great deal to do with what was called secular work in dealing with their parishioners; and if the parish 192 rooms were taken away because they were largely used for so-called secular purposes, it was certain that the first thing which clergymen would do would be to build other parish rooms. It would be wrong to take away from the clergyman the instrument by which he had done this secular work.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)indicated that the only thing that would be done under the Bill would be the addition of a certain number of trustees as representing the parish, and he did not believe that the appointment of such trustees would diminish in any degree the influence of the clergy. On the other hand, the appointment of such persons might eradicate a large amount of discord and ill-feeling which occasionally existed at the present time, and it would promote satisfaction, content, and good relations between the clergyman and his parishioners. He did not regard the clause as at all hostile to the secular parish work of the clergy, and it was not from any hostility to the work of the clergymen in the parish that he supported this clause.
*THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, that up to the present time parish rooms and their management bad been absolutely non-political in character, but he believed that this provision would introduce a political element with much danger of dissension arising. He should support the Amendment of the noble Earl, because be thought it was a case of pure justice and a simple recognition of property. The question was not wholly what was the actual use made of the rooms at the present moment; that question could not be viewed by itself. Their Lordships must also take into consideration the fact that trusts had been formed, and were being formed every day, for the holding of properly and the management of such rooms. In very many cases he believed Dissenters and Nonconformists had subscribed to these rooms. In the diocese of Cornwall there was, in his time, scarcely a restoration of a church in which the Nonconformists had not joined, but those Nonconformists would have been astonished if they had been told that their subscriptions were to constitute any claim on the part of Nonconformity to the buildings. It was a common saying there, "The Church must not be let go down." It was with a truer 193 feeling, and with no desire to make a claim on the building's, that these gifts had been given. On the other hand, were Churchmen, clergymen, and benefactors of the Church to be treated as if they were hive-bees? Their gifts and structures and accumulations were to be possessed by the first who desired them. This was what would happen under the Bill, and, moreover, he was satisfied that not peace but dissension would prevail where now there was harmony.
§ On question, that the words proposed to be left, out stand part of the clause? their Lordships divided:—Contents 17; Not-Contents 63.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNEthen moved to insert the words—
("The expression 'affairs of the Church shall include the distribution of offertories or other collections made in any church.")
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, he did not think the Amendment was necessary.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ LORD BELPER, in the absence of the Duke of St. Albans, moved an Amendment to line 34. There were people, the noble Lord said, who thought charity would include a school or endowment.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 53, line 34. after the word ("parishes") to insert the words ("but shall not include any endowed school.")—(The Lord Belper.)
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)Would it not be better to deal with it on Report? It does not come in nicely now.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 70 (Extent of Act) agreed to.
§ Clause 71 (Short title) agreed to.