HL Deb 08 February 1894 vol 21 cc197-200

First, Schedule.

On the Motion of the Earl of KIMBEKLEY, the following Amendment was agreed to:— In page 61, lines 6 and 7, leave out ("either in March or April") and insert ("on the twenty-fifth day of March in each year or within seven days before or after that day").

*THE EARL OF HARROWBY

said, he thought it as well to do all they could in the Act to help and support the authority as chairman of these thousands of new meetings and Councils, which would possibly at first ho in very inexperienced, though generally well-meaning, hands. He therefore moved the following Rule as an Amendment.

Amendment moved, After Rule (4), page 61, insert new Rule—("No person who is not at the time a qualified parochial elector may take any part or speak at any parish meeting").—(The Earl of Harrowby.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

said he was afraid the Rule might prevent a candidate presenting himself at one of these meetings and being questioned, and he thought that would be rather hard.

*THE EARL OF HARROWBY

thought there might be great contention at some of these meetings, and the management and control of such meetings would not be it trifling matter to the inexperienced men who not improbably would be called upon to preside over these village or small parish meetings.

THE EAKL OF KIMBERLEY

thought the chairman of any parish meeting would have entire power to rule out of order any person speaking if they were not qualified to attend the meeting.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

You are creating about 13,000 or 14,000 new assemblies where many people will be perfectly inexperienced. It would be better to give directions. I will put at the end of my Amendment "except in the case of a candidate."

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

said, that Clause 37 provided that no person not on the Register should attend or vote.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

thought it better to have Rules which could be always before the people.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

But there is a direct prohibition in the Act against anybody voting or attending.

*THE EARL OF HARROWBY

The Act will not be always before and in the memory of the chairman: the Rules for meetings, I imagine, he will always have before him. I think it is provided by the Act that the public may always attend.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

The public cannot speak or take part in the meeting. A gentleman admitted as a spectator into the Gallery of this House is not taking part in the meeting. I think the noble Earl's Amendment is not necessary.

Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

The next Amendment is meant its another help to the chairman, and also to provide for publicity of voting by a show of hands in the first instance.

Amendment moved, After Rule (5) insert new Rule:—"The voting in the first instance shall be by show of hands, but any parochial elector may demand that the names of those voting should be taken down, and such names shall be recorded in the minutes."—(The Earl of Harrowby.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

said, it was absolutely contradictory to the whole policy of the ballot and the principle of the Bill that names should be taken down. A show of hands could be taken and the matter was decided without any poll. If anyone demanded a poll it must he in accordance with the ballot.

*THE EARL OF HARROWBY

The poll is only demanded under the Act after a public vote at the meeting. My Amendment only goes to provide how that public vote should be taken, and that an official record of the names of those voting should be preserved. Of course, it is open to any reporter present to record and publish the names. I propose the Amendment so far as "show of hands."

Amendment negatived.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK

said, line 2, of page 62, allowed any elector to demand a poll for the information or dissolution of a School Board. He had no objection to the parish meeting having the decision of such points, but it was carrying the matter rather far to allow a single elector to force a poll upon the parish. A poll was not very easily taken. It should be only at the instance of either the chairman of the parish meeting, of five joined in the demand. On Report ho should like to move the omission of Sub-section (a) on page 62, line 2.

LORD BELPER

remarked that it was rather a strong thing for one elector to be able to demand a poll.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

said, he could not say at that moment that he was willing to insert a, provision that there should be a demand by five electors, but he would before the Report stage consider whether there should be some alteration as regarded the one elector.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

was in favour of the right rev. Prelate's opinion on the subject of the formation or dissolution of a School Board, He was quite sure that no parish would vote in favour of a School Board, and many parishes would vote for its dissolution.

*LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

said, he should not have put the next Amendment down, but for the extraordinary wording of Rule 10. That Rule made provision supposing the chairman of a parish meeting was present and should be unwilling to take the chair. He could not imagine an occasion when the chairman being present would be unwilling to take the chair.

Amendment moved, In page 62, after line 22, insert new Rule—"The chairman of any Parish Council or parish meeting may declare any meeting adjourned it in his opinion the proper conduct of the business is rendered impossible by persistent disregard of the ruling of the chair."—(The Lord Clifford of Chudlcigh.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

explained that there were cases where the chairman would be disqualified from taking the chair. He thought it would be rather a serious thing to put it in the power of a chairman to be able to declare at any moment the meeting at an end. The Parish Councils were substitutes for Vestries.

*LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

If the noble Earl assures me that the chairman leaving the chair will bring the meeting to an end, then I am satisfied.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I am by no means certain that his leaving the chair would dissolve the meeting.

Amendment negatived.

On the Motion of the Earl of KIMBERLEY, the following Amendment was agreed to:— In page 62, line 22, to insert"(11.) Any notice required to be given to or served en a parish meeting may be given to or served on the chairman of the parish meeting.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second Schedule.

On the Motion of the Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH, the following Amendment was agreed to:—In page 66, leave out lines 26 to 37 inclusive.

On the Motion of the Earl CADOGAN, The following Amendment was agreed to:—In page 66, leave out lines 47 and 48.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to he received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 296.)

House adjourned at ten minutes past Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.