§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
* THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord TWEEDMOUTH)My Lords, I think, in moving that the Report lie received, it would be convenient that I should state shortly the course the Government mean to take with regard to the principal points left over from yesterday's discussion. The first point arises on Clause 19. Upon that clause I was asked whether some change would not be regarded as advisable by Her Majesty's Government, in reference to determining the elections of chairmen of Parish Councils by lot. After looking at the clause, it seems to me that the words referring to that provision are not required at all, because in the previous Sub-section 5 it is provided that the chairman shall have in cases of equality a casting vote. The words are—
At every meeting the chairman shall have a deliberative as also in cases of equality a casting vote.I think the case is completely met by that provision, and I propose to leave out the words as to decision by lot. The Duke of Argyll proposed an alteration in Clause 26 in regard to crofters holdings being exempted from this Act. Well, my Lords, I have looked into this question closely, and I think there would be very great difficulties in making such an alteration in the Bill as it stands. The words were not inserted as the measure was originally introduced by the Government, but were put in in Grand Committee on the motion of Mr. Angus Sutherland, and were agreed to unanimously. All parties having approved, I think to go behind that position now would not be desirable or conducive to the harmony of the two Houses. I come now to Clause 30, with regard to charities. Upon that I would make an offer. 1359 Lord Balfour of Burleigh moved three or four Amendments on this clause, and I think has got rather more than he expected. At any rate, not content with hitting me with one barrel he has hit me with two. He argued that it was right to put in a limitation of 40 years, both prospective and retrospective, so that the provisions of the Bill giving power to Parish Councils over parish charities in reference to the appointment of trustees on the various Trust Boards, should not apply to charities until that time had elapsed from the date of their foundation, or, in the case of charities where the donor was still living, not until 40 years from the date of the passing of the Act. The noble Lord urged that he was following the provisions in the English Act. As ho has attained his object as to the 40 years, I think he might agree to the English precedent with regard to this question of trustees. I can give my noble Friend this assurance—that if he is willing to assent to the restoration of the Bill to the condition it was when it came to us with regard to the appointment of trustees by Parish Councils for charitable trusts, I will undertake on behalf of the Government that the clause shall receive no other Amendment in the House of Commons—that any Amendment in it will not be supported or agreed to by the Government. I hope my noble Friend will agree to this. The other Amendments standing in my name are purely in drafting. As to my noble Friend's other two Amendments, I shall be glad to assent to the second in reference to gas, but I cannot give the same assent to the first.
* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHdesired to say most frankly that, on the whole, the noble Lord had met the views of those on his side of the House in a conciliatory spirit, although he thought that the concessions that had been made were not any greater than they were in fairness entitled to. He thought the suggestion might have been accepted that a distinction should be drawn between land cultivated by the crofters and township pasture land. On the distinct understanding that the Government would support the clause as altered, he was prepared to accede to the proposal that his Amendment limiting the number of trustees should be deleted from the Bill, 1360 the proviso as to the 40 years remaining in and being supported by the Government in another place should any exception be taken to it. As to his next Amendment, the County Council of Stirling, at whose instance it was suggested, would be gratified to hear that it had been accepted. That acceptance-would be welcomed in all parts of Scotland, certainly wherever large populations existed within the limits of landward parishes. He regretted that the second of the Amendments standing in his name, which referred to Sub-section 2 of Clause 13, could not be accepted. While realising the difficulty that the Government would have to meet, he pointed out that the clause as it stood gave rise to a very great anomaly. For example, Mother-well, in the parish of Bothwell, Lanarkshire, contained only eight electors, with a valuation of £230. They, however, would be entitled to elect one Councillor, the same as each of the other wards of the parish, none of which contained a population of less than 5,000 persons. The want of fairness of representation that would exist if the clause was not, altered was, he thought, conclusively proved by the fact he had just cited.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to call the attention of the House particularly, in going through the Amendments, to those on which any question of substance arose.
§ Verbal and drafting Amendments.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN,on Clause 24, suggested that an oversight had occurred, no provision having been made that in the event of Parish Councils not requiring land for the public purposes for which they had acquired it the original proprietor should have the right to re-acquire it.
* LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, any alteration of that kind would require the addition of considerable machinery to give effect to it; and though ho sympathised with the noble Marquess in his proposal, it could not be accepted.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNurged, as discussion had become somewhat irregular, that unless provision of this kind were made, great nuisance and annoyance might be occasioned to a proprietor. A precedent existed in the case of railways and other undertakings, and 1361 the matter was of considerable importance. This might happen: unused land might be acquired by some person simply for the purpose of causing annoyance to the former proprietor, who would be compelled to pay an enormous ransom price. It was certainly a case for consideration by the Government.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANadded that it would he inadvisable to put so great a temptation in the way of Parish Councils, who might compulsorily acquire land at a small price and re-sell it to other persons at an enormous profit.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHthought these apprehensions need not be seriously entertained. All these matters would require the assent of the Board, who certainly would be memorialised from the locality in any such case of the disposal of surplus land as the noble Marquess suggested; and in that ease the Board would refuse its consent.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, the noble Marquess must suppose that the Parish Councils were going to have command of enormous sums of money. It was quite clear they would have to borrow for these purposes and the transactions would require to be sanctioned by the Board. He would point out that the House was now on Report and not in Committee, and he could not see his way to accept the Amendment now, though the matter would be considered if possible.
§ Verbal Amendments.
* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHmoved, in Clause 44, after Sub-section (4), to insert—
Upon the formation of a special lighting district under the provisions of this section it shall be lawful for the district committee to adopt the Burghs (Scotland) Gas Supply Act, 1870. subject to the provisions of the principal Act with respect, to capital expenditure, borrowing, and audit of accounts; and in the application of the former Act the expression burgh shall be construed to mean special lighting district, 'Commissioners', 'Town Council,' and 'Commissioners of Police', to mean district committee, and 'elector' and 'ratepayer' to 1362 mean a person registered as a county elector the subject of whose qualification is situated within the special lighting district.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to Order) and dispensed with.
§ Bill read 3a with, the Amendments.
§ On Question, That the Bill do pass?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcalled attention to the proviso with I regard to crofters' holdings, and he urged that the Government should take into I consideration the difference between arable and pasture land under the Crofters' Holding Act. As the Duke of Argyll reminded the House on the previous I occasion, these pasturage holdings were of large extent, and along the coast and in the Western Islands lands were acquired for fishing purposes and for other public uses. If there were no power to deal with the holdings it would be impossible for land to lie taken where required. That was a matter which should receive attention, for, as many of these holdings were of large acreage, great inconvenience might result if no, change was made in that direction.
* LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, the noble Earl had in his remarks rather overstated the position. If a change were now made it might not be accepted in the other House and might be sent I back. The words in question were I adopted unanimously in Standing Committee. For the other point, as to the distinction between arable land and pasturage in the occupation of crofters, there appeared at first sight something to be said, but on consideration it raised much difficulty. The invariable complaint of crofters had been, not that they had insufficient arable land, but that their pasturage, their outrun, was not sufficient. There might be pasturage in the hands of crofters which could be properly used for these purposes, but whenever necessary probably means would be found to give effect to the wishes of the noble Earl. On the whole, substantial justice would be done by leaving the clause as it was and it would be much wiser not to make any further change in the provisions of the Bill.
§ Verbal Amendment.
1363§ Privilege Amendments.
* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHdesired to express the satisfaction which all must feel that both sides of the House had come so near complete agreement in the shaping of this measure. It had never been their practice in Scotland to make municipal and local concerns matter of Party conflict; and he was glad to think that this Bill, which was in great measure the complement of the measure passed by the late Government in 1889, should have passed both Houses without strong cleavage upon Party lines. For himself, he desired to say that ho should use whatever influence he might possess to secure that the Bill should receive a hearty welcome and be fairly tried. He believed a great deal might be done to make the measure work successfully if they continued as they had begun, and did not regard it as a Part) victory on one side or the other. On one or two points in the Bill, however, ho was sorry to say he did not entirely concur, speaking, of course, simply for himself. He regretted the constitution of the Central Board was fixed as it was, as some danger might arise in connection with it. He sincerely hoped the tendency of administration under the Bill would not be to remove business to London which ought to be decided in Edinburgh, where at present matters were dealt with by the Board of Supervision which had been easily accessible to representations and to deputations of all kinds. Ho looked with some jealousy on the position which was assigned to the Secretary for Scotland on the new Board. In his opinion, the Secretary's position ought to be one of two things—either, as in the English system, he ought to be personally responsible, or he should not be a member of the Board at all, the Board, however, reporting to him, and he having a power of recommendation or veto or even direct control. He feared there would be a tendency, not great at first, but ever increasing, to transfer more and more the business of the Board from Edinburgh to London. Upon another point he felt some disappointment. He thought the mode in which the Act was to be brought into operation and the time at which the first election was to take place were extremely unfortunate. It would have been 1364 much better, in his opinion, to have postponed the election until the autumn of next year. The Government, he was certain, had under-estimated the necessary difficulties which would arise in making so considerable a change in administration. Between the 1st of April and the 15th of May the business of 900 parishes would have to be transferred from the Parochial Boards to the Parish Councils, and, as the rural parishes in Scotland had, generally speaking, no expert staff, very considerable difficulty was certain to arise. He hoped that, at any rate, the Government would constitute the Central Board at the earliest possible moment, in order that correspondence with reference to the transfer of duties might at once be begun. He was sorry that the Government had done away with the unofficial element on the Central Board. There were three or four unpaid members on the Board of Supervision, and he was; certain that their presence was one cause, why by the smoothing of asperities among the permanent officials that Board had worked so harmoniously in the past-lie could only repeat that he would do everything in his power personally to enable the Act to be brought in to successful operation.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE EARL OF ROSEBERY)My Lords, I am sure that on the part of the Government I can fully reciprocate the feeling expressed by the noble Lord. It is only what we should have expected from so conciliatory and so able a Member of this House. I am inclined to attribute the easy and well-oiled passage of the Bill to two considerable circumstances. In the first place, I attribute it largely to the beneficent experiment of a Scotch Grand Committee, in which, by a mechanism which might well be carried further with advantage, the affairs of Scotland have been dealt with in a manner more complete, more efficient, and less anuoying—if I may so speak without offence—to the general body of Members of the Sister Kingdom than has hitherto been the case. In the second place, I attribute it to something more permanent, I am happy to say, than even the Scotch Grand Committee—the abiding common sense of the Representatives of Scotland in both Houses. The noble Lord complained of the Bill being brought into 1365 operation so early; but that is the result of the general agreement of Scotch Representatives in the other House, which the Government cannot afford to disregard. I think the noble Lord a little overrates the ability of his fellow-countrymen, in bringing an Act of this kind into early operation. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will use every exertion to bring the Central Board into power at as early a date as is possible. Then with regard to the constitution of the Board, the noble Lord is afraid the Board will suffer from the absence of the unofficial non-salaried members. But this is to be a working Board. Js it wise that there should be ornamental members on that Board, who only at tend occasionally, and in many cases do not attend at all? What object is to be gained by contact with those elements of light and leading? Can the noble Lord point to any case in which the Board of Supervision as practically benefited by the attendance of unofficial members? As a matter of fact, it was notorious that the Board of Supervision was a body which could have been comprised by a much smaller number of hats than were worn by its members. I am averse to the constitution of those nominal Committees or Boards which have so long obtained in Scotland for the transaction of business. The whole tendency of the age is to have business Boards, and that every Board should be composed simply of the people who really do the work have always failed to see the advantage arising from the ornamental constitution of such bodies as the Board of Trade, the Local Government Board, and the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, and I will never agree to any extension of the principle. I think the apprehension of the noble Lord that the fact of the Secretary for Scotland being Chairman of the Board will have the tendency to draw the Board to London is rather illusory. What is the case in Ireland? The Chief Secretary is Chairman of the Irish Local Government Board, but that does not produce any tendency towards bringing the Board to London. Where the work is there the Board must remain, and I can assure the noble Lord that the influence of the Government will be used in the direction of making his fear illusory.
§ Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.