Lords Sitting of 17 August 1894

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent: —
Charitable Trusts Acts Amendment.
Industrial Schools.
British Museum (Purchase of Land).
Locomotive Threshing Engines.
Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Acts Amendment.
Nautical Assessors (Scotland).
Public Libraries (Ireland) Acts Amendment.
Prize Courts.
Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1).
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2).
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15).
Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London).
Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Barry, &c).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 1) (Canals of the Great Northern and certain other Railway Companies).
Canal Rates, Tolls, and Charges Provisional Order (No. 2) (Bridgewater, &c. Canals).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 3) (Aberdare, &c. Canals).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 5) (Regent's Canal).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 7) (River Aucholme, &c).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 8) (River Cam, &c).
Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (No. 9) (Canals of Caledonian and North British Railway Companies).
Canal Rates, Tolls, and Charges Provisional Order (No. 11) (Grand Canal, &c).

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
Moved—
"That the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Tweed-mouth) do take the Chair this day in Committee of the Whole House in the absence of the Chairman of Committees."—(The Marquess of Ripon.)
Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 12.)

  REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord TWEEDMOUTH): My Lords, I think, in moving that the Report lie received, it would be convenient that I should state shortly the course the Government mean to take with regard to the principal points left over from yesterday's discussion. The first point arises on Clause 19. Upon that clause I was asked whether some change would not be regarded as advisable by Her Majesty's Government, in reference to determining the elections of chairmen of Parish Councils by lot. After looking at the clause, it seems to me that the words referring to that provision are not required at all, because in the previous Sub-section 5 it is provided that the chairman shall have in cases of equality a casting vote. The words are—
  "At every meeting the chairman shall have a deliberative as also in cases of equality a casting vote."
  I think the case is completely met by that provision, and I propose to leave out the words as to decision by lot. The Duke of Argyll proposed an alteration in Clause 26 in regard to crofters holdings being exempted from this Act. Well, my Lords, I have looked into this question closely, and I think there would be very great difficulties in making such an alteration in the Bill as it stands. The words were not inserted as the measure was originally introduced by the Government, but were put in in Grand Committee on the motion of Mr. Angus Sutherland, and were agreed to unanimously. All parties having approved, I think to go behind that position now would not be desirable or conducive to the harmony of the two Houses. I come now to Clause 30, with regard to charities. Upon that I would make an offer.

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  Lord Balfour of Burleigh moved three or four Amendments on this clause, and I think has got rather more than he expected. At any rate, not content with hitting me with one barrel he has hit me with two. He argued that it was right to put in a limitation of 40 years, both prospective and retrospective, so that the provisions of the Bill giving power to Parish Councils over parish charities in reference to the appointment of trustees on the various Trust Boards, should not apply to charities until that time had elapsed from the date of their foundation, or, in the case of charities where the donor was still living, not until 40 years from the date of the passing of the Act. The noble Lord urged that he was following the provisions in the English Act. As ho has attained his object as to the 40 years, I think he might agree to the English precedent with regard to this question of trustees. I can give my noble Friend this assurance—that if he is willing to assent to the restoration of the Bill to the condition it was when it came to us with regard to the appointment of trustees by Parish Councils for charitable trusts, I will undertake on behalf of the Government that the clause shall receive no other Amendment in the House of Commons—that any Amendment in it will not be supported or agreed to by the Government. I hope my noble Friend will agree to this. The other Amendments standing in my name are purely in drafting. As to my noble Friend's other two Amendments, I shall be glad to assent to the second in reference to gas, but I cannot give the same assent to the first.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHdesired to say most frankly that, on the whole, the noble Lord had met the views of those on his side of the House in a conciliatory spirit, although he thought that the concessions that had been made were not any greater than they were in fairness entitled to. He thought the suggestion might have been accepted that a distinction should be drawn between land cultivated by the crofters and township pasture land. On the distinct understanding that the Government would support the clause as altered, he was prepared to accede to the proposal that his Amendment limiting the number of trustees should be deleted from the Bill,
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  the proviso as to the 40 years remaining in and being supported by the Government in another place should any exception be taken to it. As to his next Amendment, the County Council of Stirling, at whose instance it was suggested, would be gratified to hear that it had been accepted. That acceptance-would be welcomed in all parts of Scotland, certainly wherever large populations existed within the limits of landward parishes. He regretted that the second of the Amendments standing in his name, which referred to Sub-section 2 of Clause 13, could not be accepted. While realising the difficulty that the Government would have to meet, he pointed out that the clause as it stood gave rise to a very great anomaly. For example, Mother-well, in the parish of Bothwell, Lanarkshire, contained only eight electors, with a valuation of £230. They, however, would be entitled to elect one Councillor, the same as each of the other wards of the parish, none of which contained a population of less than 5,000 persons. The want of fairness of representation that would exist if the clause was not, altered was, he thought, conclusively proved by the fact he had just cited.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to call the attention of the House particularly, in going through the Amendments, to those on which any question of substance arose.
  Verbal and drafting Amendments.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN,on Clause 24, suggested that an oversight had occurred, no provision having been made that in the event of Parish Councils not requiring land for the public purposes for which they had acquired it the original proprietor should have the right to re-acquire it.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, any alteration of that kind would require the addition of considerable machinery to give effect to it; and though ho sympathised with the noble Marquess in his proposal, it could not be accepted.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNurged, as discussion had become somewhat irregular, that unless provision of this kind were made, great nuisance and annoyance might be occasioned to a proprietor. A precedent existed in the case of railways and other undertakings, and

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  the matter was of considerable importance. This might happen: unused land might be acquired by some person simply for the purpose of causing annoyance to the former proprietor, who would be compelled to pay an enormous ransom price. It was certainly a case for consideration by the Government.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANadded that it would he inadvisable to put so great a temptation in the way of Parish Councils, who might compulsorily acquire land at a small price and re-sell it to other persons at an enormous profit.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTHthought these apprehensions need not be seriously entertained. All these matters would require the assent of the Board, who certainly would be memorialised from the locality in any such case of the disposal of surplus land as the noble Marquess suggested; and in that ease the Board would refuse its consent.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid that would be so only where money was borrowed.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, they would hardly be able to acquire land without borrowing.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANwas not so sure of that.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, the noble Marquess must suppose that the Parish Councils were going to have command of enormous sums of money. It was quite clear they would have to borrow for these purposes and the transactions would require to be sanctioned by the Board. He would point out that the House was now on Report and not in Committee, and he could not see his way to accept the Amendment now, though the matter would be considered if possible.
  Verbal Amendments.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHmoved, in Clause 44, after Sub-section (4), to insert—
  "Upon the formation of a special lighting district under the provisions of this section it shall be lawful for the district committee to adopt the Burghs (Scotland) Gas Supply Act, 1870. subject to the provisions of the principal Act with respect, to capital expenditure, borrowing, and audit of accounts; and in the application of the former Act the expression burgh shall be construed to mean special lighting district, 'Commissioners', 'Town Council,' and 'Commissioners of Police', to mean district committee, and 'elector' and 'ratepayer' to
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  mean a person registered as a county elector the subject of whose qualification is situated within the special lighting district."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to Order) and dispensed with.
  Bill read 3a with, the Amendments.
  On Question, That the Bill do pass?
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNcalled attention to the proviso with I regard to crofters' holdings, and he urged that the Government should take into I consideration the difference between arable and pasture land under the Crofters' Holding Act. As the Duke of Argyll reminded the House on the previous I occasion, these pasturage holdings were of large extent, and along the coast and in the Western Islands lands were acquired for fishing purposes and for other public uses. If there were no power to deal with the holdings it would be impossible for land to lie taken where required. That was a matter which should receive attention, for, as many of these holdings were of large acreage, great inconvenience might result if no, change was made in that direction.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, the noble Earl had in his remarks rather overstated the position. If a change were now made it might not be accepted in the other House and might be sent I back. The words in question were I adopted unanimously in Standing Committee. For the other point, as to the distinction between arable land and pasturage in the occupation of crofters, there appeared at first sight something to be said, but on consideration it raised much difficulty. The invariable complaint of crofters had been, not that they had insufficient arable land, but that their pasturage, their outrun, was not sufficient. There might be pasturage in the hands of crofters which could be properly used for these purposes, but whenever necessary probably means would be found to give effect to the wishes of the noble Earl. On the whole, substantial justice would be done by leaving the clause as it was and it would be much wiser not to make any further change in the provisions of the Bill.
  Verbal Amendment.
  Privilege Amendments.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHdesired to express the satisfaction which all must feel that both sides of the House had come so near complete agreement in the shaping of this measure. It had never been their practice in Scotland to make municipal and local concerns matter of Party conflict; and he was glad to think that this Bill, which was in great measure the complement of the measure passed by the late Government in 1889, should have passed both Houses without strong cleavage upon Party lines. For himself, he desired to say that ho should use whatever influence he might possess to secure that the Bill should receive a hearty welcome and be fairly tried. He believed a great deal might be done to make the measure work successfully if they continued as they had begun, and did not regard it as a Part) victory on one side or the other. On one or two points in the Bill, however, ho was sorry to say he did not entirely concur, speaking, of course, simply for himself. He regretted the constitution of the Central Board was fixed as it was, as some danger might arise in connection with it. He sincerely hoped the tendency of administration under the Bill would not be to remove business to London which ought to be decided in Edinburgh, where at present matters were dealt with by the Board of Supervision which had been easily accessible to representations and to deputations of all kinds. Ho looked with some jealousy on the position which was assigned to the Secretary for Scotland on the new Board. In his opinion, the Secretary's position ought to be one of two things—either, as in the English system, he ought to be personally responsible, or he should not be a member of the Board at all, the Board, however, reporting to him, and he having a power of recommendation or veto or even direct control. He feared there would be a tendency, not great at first, but ever increasing, to transfer more and more the business of the Board from Edinburgh to London. Upon another point he felt some disappointment. He thought the mode in which the Act was to be brought into operation and the time at which the first election was to take place were extremely unfortunate. It would have been
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  much better, in his opinion, to have postponed the election until the autumn of next year. The Government, he was certain, had under-estimated the necessary difficulties which would arise in making so considerable a change in administration. Between the 1st of April and the 15th of May the business of 900 parishes would have to be transferred from the Parochial Boards to the Parish Councils, and, as the rural parishes in Scotland had, generally speaking, no expert staff, very considerable difficulty was certain to arise. He hoped that, at any rate, the Government would constitute the Central Board at the earliest possible moment, in order that correspondence with reference to the transfer of duties might at once be begun. He was sorry that the Government had done away with the unofficial element on the Central Board. There were three or four unpaid members on the Board of Supervision, and he was; certain that their presence was one cause, why by the smoothing of asperities among the permanent officials that Board had worked so harmoniously in the past-lie could only repeat that he would do everything in his power personally to enable the Act to be brought in to successful operation.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE EARL OF ROSEBERY): My Lords, I am sure that on the part of the Government I can fully reciprocate the feeling expressed by the noble Lord. It is only what we should have expected from so conciliatory and so able a Member of this House. I am inclined to attribute the easy and well-oiled passage of the Bill to two considerable circumstances. In the first place, I attribute it largely to the beneficent experiment of a Scotch Grand Committee, in which, by a mechanism which might well be carried further with advantage, the affairs of Scotland have been dealt with in a manner more complete, more efficient, and less anuoying—if I may so speak without offence—to the general body of Members of the Sister Kingdom than has hitherto been the case. In the second place, I attribute it to something more permanent, I am happy to say, than even the Scotch Grand Committee—the abiding common sense of the Representatives of Scotland in both Houses. The noble Lord complained of the Bill being brought into

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  operation so early; but that is the result of the general agreement of Scotch Representatives in the other House, which the Government cannot afford to disregard. I think the noble Lord a little overrates the ability of his fellow-countrymen, in bringing an Act of this kind into early operation. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will use every exertion to bring the Central Board into power at as early a date as is possible. Then with regard to the constitution of the Board, the noble Lord is afraid the Board will suffer from the absence of the unofficial non-salaried members. But this is to be a working Board. Js it wise that there should be ornamental members on that Board, who only at tend occasionally, and in many cases do not attend at all? What object is to be gained by contact with those elements of light and leading? Can the noble Lord point to any case in which the Board of Supervision as practically benefited by the attendance of unofficial members? As a matter of fact, it was notorious that the Board of Supervision was a body which could have been comprised by a much smaller number of hats than were worn by its members. I am averse to the constitution of those nominal Committees or Boards which have so long obtained in Scotland for the transaction of business. The whole tendency of the age is to have business Boards, and that every Board should be composed simply of the people who really do the work have always failed to see the advantage arising from the ornamental constitution of such bodies as the Board of Trade, the Local Government Board, and the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, and I will never agree to any extension of the principle. I think the apprehension of the noble Lord that the fact of the Secretary for Scotland being Chairman of the Board will have the tendency to draw the Board to London is rather illusory. What is the case in Ireland? The Chief Secretary is Chairman of the Irish Local Government Board, but that does not produce any tendency towards bringing the Board to London. Where the work is there the Board must remain, and I can assure the noble Lord that the influence of the Government will be used in the direction of making his fear illusory.
  Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

THE NATIONAL FEDERATION AND EVICTED FARMS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWN,in the absence of the Earl of Arran, asked Her Majesty's Government whether it was the case that last autumn Mathew Leonard took an evicted farm in County Sligo, that he was then summoned to appear before the Bunnimadden branch of the Irish National Federation, that he refused to obey the summons, that a, meeting of the Federation was shortly afterwards held about a, mile from Leonard's lands, that at that meeting one speaker said—
  "There is a passage of Scripture which says that the lepers came to our Saviour to be cured, some with their toes off and some with their joints loose; they repented, and he cured them of their disease. There are three toes on: Mathew and let him not stay until his ten toes are off, and we will not take him back. He will be fate then, and we will have the farm. The two principal shopkeepers of Tobercurry who are supplying Mathew with goods will be known. So much for grabberism. I will denounce and every one of them. There are good men here who would do seven months—seven years—for a slimy land-grabber like that. Shun him like a mad dog."
  That another speaker said—
  "There are numerous graveyards around here, but Mathew will hardly be buried in one of them. The limekilns are more numerous and I would venture to say he will be buried, in one of them."
  That in consequence of that meeting four people (including the above speakers) were, by order of the Attorney General, charged at the Bally mote Betty Sessions with incitement to violence; that no evidence was called for the defendants; that the Bench being equally divided, the order was "No rule"; whether the Attorney General took any further steps?
  LORD MONKSWELLreplied that he regretted to say language substantially the same as that quoted was used at a meeting on August 20, 1893. The prosecution to which the noble Earl referred was the subject of a question in the House of Commons on the 6th of November, 1893. On that occasion Mr. J. Morley, in justifying the withdrawal of the prosecution as, in all the circumstances, the best course to be adopted

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  added very significantly that the hands of the Crown were not tied if the defendants should provoke further action against Leonard. Leonard, who had full police protection, had not since been interfered with by the Federation, and no proceedings had therefore been taken. His information was to the effect that Leonard had been severely boycotted, but that he was now relieved to a certain extent. The Magistrates having disagreed, it did not appear to the Executive that there was any certainty that if a prosecution was entered upon it would be successful. The Executive, therefore, came to the conclusion that on the whole the best course would be to drop the prosecution and to trust to the warning given to the men, first by the initial action of the Attorney General, and, secondly, by the answer of Mr. Morley in the House of Commons. That course had so far had the merit of being successful, because the Federation had not since interfered with Leonard. In reply to the further questions asked by the Earl of Courtown, he stated that the speeches referred to were published in the local Nationalist journal, and two Resident Magistrates were in favour of the prosecution. One of the other Magistrates was appointed in August, 1893, three weeks before the proceedings were taken.

MARINE INSURANCE BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL),in presenting a Bill for the purpose of codifying the law relating to Marine Insurance, said: I desire to state that of course I do not do so with any idea of proceeding with the measure this Session. The Bill is an attempt to deal with the subject of marine insurance in the same manner as the Legislature has already dealt with the subject of bills of exchange and the law relating to the sale of goods. It has been drawn by Judge Chalmers, of the Birmingham County Court, who has rendered invaluable service in connection with former Acts codifying particular branches of the law. The work has been done by him in addition to his official duties, which are heavy, simply froth a desire to render public service. I have myself been through the
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  provisions of the Bill, and I believe that it states the existing law on the subject. My object in presenting the Bill now is to invite criticism and suggestions upon it from those conversant with the subject before it is brought before Parliament next Session.
  Bill for codifying the law relating to Marine Insurance—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 219.)

EQUALISATION OF RATES (LONDON) BILL.—(No. 207.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1.
  LORD WELBYmoved an Amendment to Sub-section 7, providing for an audit by a district auditor of the accounts of the parishes which received grants under the Bill. He said, that he should have hoped for some encouragement from the Prime Minister, but that perhaps at that period of the Session he must not be sanguine; that in another place fears had been expressed that the Bill would lead to extravagance, and its object thus frustrated: that, in the words of Mr. Goschen, the gain to the constituents would be loss to the Metropolis, and ultimately to the constituents themselves, unless the Bill were so hedged round as to secure increased efficiency' in the application of the funds. On the point of financial check there lies an obvious deficiency in the Bill, since it only required the rendering of a statement of expenditure by the Sanitary Authority, unaccompanied by any provision for independent audit. He was quite aware that an independent audit did not necessarily stop extravagance, but it would stop irregular expenditure, and would have a tendency to curb extravagance if the Report of the auditor was published. It might be said that there was already a local auditor of these charges appointed by the ratepayers. That was so, but that auditor was not an expert, and the Bill did not even provide for the appending of his certificate to the account. Appending the certificate of a local auditor would hardly be satisfactory, and an unaudited account was worthless. They had, however, at

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  hand an expert in the district auditor appointed by the Local Government Board, and lie suggested that the Report of that officer upon the expenditure of the grant should be obtained before any further issue was made to a Sanitary Authority out of the equalisation grant. Some day an extended public audit of all local expenditure would be required, but that day was possibly distant. In the Meantime, there could be no harm in adopting the system suggested in the Amendment.
  Amendment moved, in Sub-section 7, page 2, line 27, add at end of the subjection the words—
  ("and the amount of such expenses shall, before any further payment is made to such authority, be audited by a district auditor.").
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I welcome this Amendment with the greatest sincerity, though I am quite unable to adopt it, because it has afforded my noble Friend an opportunity for the first time of making a contribution to the Debates in this House upon a subject in which he is an expert. I trust we shall often have similar opportunities. I am far from contending that the system of auditing the accounts of District Boards is perfect, and, in fact, I am very much inclined to agree with the opinion of the noble Lord that an independent audit is desirable. I think, however, that the present proposal will rather tend to increase the anomalies of the present system Khan to diminish them, because in the parishes which pay the result will remain as at present, and in the parishes which receive the grant there will be a double audit — audit as at present and audit by the district auditor. I am inclined to think that such a large reform as this would imply still larger reforms, and the suggested reform is not one which can be brought about on this occasion or in this Bill. I think it ought to be carefully considered whether some reform of the system of audit should not lie adopted for all Boards instead of for a part of them; but in order to do this, more time will be needed for the consideration of the subject than could be obtained at this period of the Session. Full opportunity should also be afforded to the bodies affected to express their opinions and to offer suggestions. If my noble
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  Friend in the leisure of the recess will undertake to deal with this question as a whole, and bring in a well-considered measure, or suggest one to be brought into the other House, I am sure it will receive the most favourable consideration of Her Majesty's Government.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

BUILDING SOCIETIES (No. 2) BILL. (No. 208.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, ho had some drafting Amendments on this clause, but they made no alteration in its substance.
  Amendments agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that at the end of Clause 2 he proposed to insert this section—
  "Shall not come into operation until 12 months after the passing of the Act."
  That was to comply with a pledge that was given in the other House that that provision should be inserted.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to,
  Clauses 3 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL),after Clause 9, moved to insert a new clause, which provided that on the dissolution or winding-up of a Company the persons who had received an advance should only be required to repay under the conditions of the Society the money which had been advanced. This also was in accordance with a pledge given.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHasked if the clause proposed to be inserted was in the terms of either of the clauses on the Paper?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, No; it was a combination of Amendments put down by Mr.

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  Williams and himself. It was in these terms—
  "In the dissolution or winding-up of a Society under the Building Societies Acts, a member on whose shares an advance has been made shall not be liable to pay the amount payable under any mortgage or other security, or under the Rules of the Society, except at the time or times and subject to the conditions expressed in the security or Rules."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Verbal Amendments in Clause 10.
  Clause 11.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, his Amendments were merely with regard to providing voting papers.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 12.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)proposed, in line 35, after "Scotland," to insert "Ireland." This also was to fulfil an undertaking given in the other House.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 13 agreed to.
  Clause 14 agreed to, with drafting Amendment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that then there was a new clause extending the powers for investments, which also was practically agreed upon in the other House. Its object was to give, in addition to their powers of investment, powers to Trustees to invest. Substantially, it was the same as the proposal made by Mr. Bill.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clauses 15 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 20.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, he had to propose several drafting Amendments which had been made with a view to making the clause workable.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 21 agreed to.
  Clause 22.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHsaid, he understood the noble and learned Lord did not object to insert 1856 for 1855 in this clause.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): No.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)said, that then there was a new clause proposed after 22—
  "The forms in the Schedule to this Act shall, after the commencement of this Act, be used under the Building Societies Acts."
  Amendment agreed to.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHasked the noble and learned Lord whether he objected to the insertion of the new clause suggested by Lord Wemyss, which would come in after Clause 23 if at all?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)did not think it was possible, to accept this clause. It was a provision that Building Societies might register under the Companies Acts, but it provided they might do so notwithstanding that neither the amount of capital nor the number of shares was fixed. Those were two things which went to the very root of the Companies Acts. It was proposed that the Companies Acts should apply with such modifications as might be found necessary, but there was no provision as to who was to determine the modifications, and it would not work without the requisite machinery.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 23 to 26, inclusive, agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)moved to leave out the first Schedule and insert a new Schedule in the form of a table containing particulars to be set forth in the case of a mortgage where the repayments are not upwards of 12 months in arrears, and the property has not been upwards of 12 months in possession of the Society, and where the present debt exceeds £5,000; also particulars to be set forth in the case of property of which the Society has been upwards of 12 months in possession, and in the case of a mortgage where the

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  repayments are upwards of 12 months in arrear and the property has not been upwards of 12 months in possession of the Society.
  Amendment agreed to.

  SECOND SCHEDULE.
  Verbal Amendments.
  Standing Committee negatived; The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next.

ALLEGED PERJURY IN THE DUBLIN BANKRUPTCY COURT.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD CLONCURRYasked Her Majesty's Government whether they had read in the Dublin papers of the 15th August the following:—
  "Yesterday, in the Court of Bankruptcy, Judge Boyd, with reference to the ease of Carew, an arranging debtor, said that certain bills were produced and tendered to the assignees for distribution to the creditors. These bills were suspected not to be all right, and it was also suspected that the names of the surety on them and of the witness to the signatures of the surety were not in the handwriting of the parties represented. In consequence of this, witnesses were examined, including Mr. Carew, who stated that the signatures were right and that he saw them attached, and he produced an affidavit of a witness to the signatures—a clerk of his own—certifying that he was present and that he saw the documents executed. That clerk was subsequently examined before him (Judge Boyd), and had to admit that not one of the signatures of the surety was attached in his presence, and that he had signed several of the names himself. Under these circumstances, he (Judge Boyd) thought it right for the due administration of justice that the depositions taken in the case should be sent to the Attorney General with a view to prosecuting the clerk for perjury, and Mr. Carew for subornation of perjury, Mr. Carew in his opinion, being the chief offender. He found that, in the exercise of his discretion, the Attorney General sent up no bill against Carew. The dupe, Ryan, the clerk, who was tried at the Clonmel Assizes, was sentenced to six months' imprisonment. The Lord Chief Justice, who tried the ease, was pleased to express the opinion at the time that he considered Mr. Carew, as he (Judge Boyd) did, as the chief offender, and that if he had been tried and convicted before him he would have sentenced him to five years' penal servitude. But this gentleman had been allowed to go scot-free, notwithstanding that he (Judge Boyd) had considered it necessary that he should draw the attention of the Attorney General to this gross attempt to defeat justice. He would consider what steps might still be taken to see that justice was not defeated. He had frequently to remark upon the inefficient manner in which prosecutions directed by that Court had been carried out."
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  Also, what was the explanation of the Attorney General for Ireland of the matter stated in the Judgment?
  LORD MONKSWELLsaid, that the Papers in this case had been placed before the Attorney General for Ireland by the Chief Crown Solicitor in April last. From these it appeared that Ryan had committed perjury, and that there was very strong ground for supposing that he had been instigated by his employer, Carew, to make the statements, although there was no evidence to that effect. The Attorney General had directed it prosecution in the case of O'Brien, and the attention of the Attorney General had been directed to the observations of the learned Judge who tried the case, and he had since called for it Report and had promised to consider the question when it came to hand whether there was sufficient evidence to justify it prosecution against Carew. In conclusion, he assured the noble Lord that prosecutions were made in all those cases where the evidence warranted such a course.

CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 215.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to provide facilities for the sale of land to tenants by the Board. Clause 1 provides two methods whereby, when the Land Commission advance the purchase money, cither the guarantee deposit need not be retained or the provisions of the Purchase Act of 1891 as to the purchaser's insurance money shall not operate, i.e., the annuity shall not be more than 4 per cent. By the first method the Board may guarantee the payment of an amount equal to the guarantee deposit. Under Section o of the Purchase Act of 1885 the Land Commission are empowered to retain out of the purchase money a guarantee deposit of not less than one-fifth of the advance. By the second method the Board may guarantee the payment of such sums as would otherwise have been set off by the Land Commission against the purchaser's insurance money. Under Section H of the Purchase Act of 1891 when the advance is less than 20

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  times the annual value of the holding, then for the first five years of the term the annuity must be 80 per cent, of the annual value, and the excess of such annuity over an annuity of 4 per cent, is the purchaser's insurance money. After five years the annuity may be reduced to 4 per cent., and after 18 years to 3 per cent, or less. By Sub-section 2 the sums payable by the Board under a guarantee are to be paid out of the moneys at their disposal and are to be applied as if they were the guarantee deposit or the purchaser's insurance. Under Sub-section 3 these sums are to be debts from the purchaser to the Board and are to be a charge on the holding. Under Sub-section 4 the Treasury are to fix the amount up to which the Board may give guarantees. Clause 2 proposes, for the purpose of taking laud by the Board, to incorporate the voluntary provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts. These provisions include powers for entering into agreements for the purchase of laud, for ascertaining the amount of compensation in case of parties under disability, for applying the purchase money, for dealings by parties having limited interests, &c. Under Clause 3 the Bill also proposes additional powers with reference to the appointment of officers for the Board—the provisions of the Purchase Act of 1891 in that behalf having been found to be inconvenient and inadequate. Under Section 40 (1) of the Purchase Act of 1891 the officers of the Land Commission were to discharge duties for the Board. The clause proposes to enable to Lord Lieutenant with the sanction of the Treasury to anther is the Board to appoint their own officers who are to be on the permanent staff of the Land Commission and also to employ such persons as they may require temporarily who are to be paid out of the votes. The Bill has a supplemental provision in the same direction as the Congested Districts Board Act of last Session. This Act enabled the Board to acquire land and constituted them landlords of any land so acquired. The land is to be held by two members of the Board as Trustees. I may add that the Bill is an absolutely non-contentious measure, and was introduced in the Commons by the Chief Secretary and Mr. Arthur Balfour, and passed through that House without
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  opposition. I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." {The Lord Monkswell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

JURIES (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 216.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD MONKSWELL: This Bill is to remove a hardship on special jurors in Ireland, who have under the existing law to attend Assizes whether there is business or not. I beg to move its Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—{The Lord Monkswell)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL. (No. 218.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. It was drafted to carry out the recommendations of the Committee of the House of Commons, presided over by Mr. Shaw-Lefevre, appointed in May 1893, to inquire into the manner in which the Railway Companies had carried out the powers conferred on them by Parliament in 1892, with reference to traffic rates. While the Bill was in the House of Commons prolonged negotiations took place, at the instance of the President of the Board of Trade, between the Railway Company and the trades, and by a process of concession on both sides the measure was practically made non-controversial. Certain Amendments were put in the Bill during its progress through the House of Commons; but I do not know that I need call attention to them in detail. I will only say that they were practically agreed upon by both Companies and trades; and

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  consequently this Bill new conies to your Lordships as an absolutely non-contentious measure.
  Moved, "That the Bill he now read 2a." (The Lord Monkswell.)
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

COPYHOLD CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]—(No. 171.)
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with an Amendment.
COAL MINES (CHECK WEIGHER) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 153.)
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
UNIFORMS BILL.—(No. 175.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
CHIMNEY SWEEPERS BILL.—(No. 192.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (BORROWING POWERS) BILL. (No. 209.)
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.—(No. 204.)
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
HERITABLE SECURITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 202.)
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
QUARRIES BILL [H.L.]—(No. 149.)
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order), and agreed to.
EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.—(No. 217.)
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next (The Earl of Chester-field). (No. 220.)
COPYHOLD (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 171.)
Commons Amendment considered (on Motion), and agreed to.

COAL MINES (CHECK WEIGHER) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 153.)
Commons Amendments considered (on Motion), and agreed to.
House adjourned at five minutes past Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.