Lords Sitting of 11 September 1893

Preamble
The Lord Kensington—Chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Commissioners.
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD DENMANasked whether the Second Reading of the Bill for the Better Government of Ireland, having been passed after 12 o'clock on Friday night, the postponement of it would date from that day or from Saturday; because, if from Saturday, it would be impossible for it to be read a second time "that day six months"? He, therefore, wished it should be known that the postponement would, in the circumstances, be until the following Monday, the 12th March.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): I really do not know what day it dates from, but it is wholly immaterial. It makes no difference what day it is.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to Order), and dispensed with for this day's Sitting.
WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL [H.L.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN LORD DENMAN, in moving the Second Reading, said, that in view of the unfair opposition which had been made out of doors to this Bill, he thought it would be an excellent thing if it were carried in their Lordships' House, and submitted to the opinion of the other House at the next meeting of Parliament. He begged, therefore, to move that the Bill be now read a second time, so that, with the suspension of the Standing Orders in its favour, it might be passed through all its stages in that House.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  On Question, resolved in the negative.

LAND JUDGES COURT (IRELAND).
LORD ARDILAUN LORD ARDILAUN moved—
"That the Return moved for on the 8th August, 1890, relating to proceedings in the Land Judges Court in Ireland (in continuation of House of Lords Parliamentary Paper No. 249, of Session 1888) be presented to the House, notwithstanding that some slight alterations in the form of the Order have been found to be necessary."
He believed that the Motion was unopposed.
LORD ACTONsaid, the Return moved for would be got ready immediately.
Motion agreed to.

CAVALRY BARRACKS AT WINDSOR.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ARRANasked the Under Secretary of State for War whether there was any truth in the rumour that the General Officer commanding the Home District had reported that the Cavalry Barracks at Windsor were unfit for occupation; whether the Government expert and the principal medical officer had reported in the same sense; and whether, in consequence of these Reports, it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to remedy at once the evils complained of; and whether the Under Secretary of State for War would lay on the Table all the Reports and Correspondence connected with the matter? He said that, in the short interval between the Division on the Government of Ireland Bill on Friday, and the Adjournment of the House, certain information having been given him with reference to the state of these barracks, he had had but a few minutes to put down the question in a somewhat uncertain form. More specific information had since reached him, of a character so remarkable that he should have liked to have had the opportunity of speaking to the Under Secretary of State for War upon the matter before bringing it to the attention of the House. As, however, it would be inconvenient for the noble Lord to be present to-morrow, he must put the question. Owing to constant complaints of the insanitary

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  condition of these barracks, an expert officer (Captain Tindall) was sent to Windsor to report upon them. On the '3rd August he reported that all the drains were in a very foul state, that there was no proper system of ventilation, and the principal latrines were little better than cesspools, emitting their putrid contents into wells. The whole place stank in a most abominable manner, and money spent on works would be thrown away. On the 23rd August the principal medical officer reported, amongst other things, that the barracks were so bad as to be unfit for occupation. That appeared to him to be an unsatisfactory state of things. Then a subsequent Report was received from Captain Tindall on the 29th August, to the effect that the foul smells complained of were owing to an escape of "gas." It was very remarkable that an expert, well versed in such matters, should make so strong a Report in the first instance and one so very minimised three weeks afterwards. The only way to reconcile the two Reports was to suppose that in writing "gas" Captain Tindall had omitted the word "sewer," for of course it was easy to distinguish between the smell from an escape of illuminating gas and that proceeding from drains. Another strong fact was that the medical officer had reported that the barracks were "unfit for occupation." Further, in December, 1892, he believed that the General Officer commanding the Home District drew up a very strong Report on the condition of the barracks; but no notice was taken of it, nor any move made in the matter until August last. During the short time the Royal Horse Guards were at Windsor, before they went to Pirbright, on their way to Newbridge, two cases of illness occurred, one patient having to be sent away, owing, it was believed, to the bad smells; and in the other case, which ended fatally, the patient showed strong symptoms of enteric fever. He remembered a similar case occurring at Dublin, where the Royal Barracks were pronounced to be in an unsanitary condition. Nothing, however, was done in the matter, although men and officers were dying every year, and it was only when, presumably, it became convenient to put the matter into the Estimates that a very bad report of them was sent in, and the
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  Headquarters Staff was moved out at 24 hours' notice, and it was stated that it would be at the risk of their lives to return. Having put the facts he had mentioned before the noble Lord, he begged to put the question.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST)said, he quite recognised the public spirit which had prompted the question, and the friendly tone in which his noble Friend had couched his observations. A short time ago a question was asked of Mr. Campbell-Bannerman in the House of Commons, and, in reply, he quoted the Report of Mr. Tindall, who was not a military officer, but an expert in sanitary matters, and stated that several Reports had been received upon the drainage of barracks. The first Report from the General Officer commanding, complaining of the system, had been received in December, 1892; and two others had been received from the War Office Sanitary Inspector, dated August 1 and August 29. Although the system of drainage appeared to be old-fashioned and bad in principle, the health of the troops occupying the barracks had not suffered in any way. The Sanitary Inspector, who had used the smoke test, stated that he found no direct escape of gas from the drains into the building, but that the bad smells were sufficiently accounted for by the proximity of filthy latrines and numerous escapes of lighting gas within the building. After recommending certain alterations and repairs which were now to be carried out, the Inspector stated that he could not help thinking that hitherto the smells had been rather offensive than dangerous, and that when the alterations had been made the air of the officer's house would cease to be offensive; and he considered that no special steps need to be taken until the drains were re-constructed in due course. Steps were now being taken to remove the offensive stenches. Of course, the cleanliness of latrines was not within the responsibility of the Secretary of State for War, but of Commanding Officers. Lord Errol, in command of the Blues, had complained to him that these drains were in a bad state. Thereupon, Mr. Tindall was sent to report as a preliminary step. Knowing that Lord Errol was dissatisfied with the state of the barracks to which he was to take his

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  regiment, he asked Mr. Tindall to come and see him and state the steps he had taken. Mr. Tindall states that he had used the smoke test, and the officers having complained of the offensive smells when the doors were opened on hot nights he had discovered an escape of gas. As he had said, the health of both regiments of Life Guards who had been quartered there had been uniformly good. His noble Friend was unable to understand how the Reports differed so much, but he should point out that Mr. Tindall had been selected to report on these matters because he was well versed in them. Mr. Campbell-Bannerman, after conferring with the Inspector General of Fortifications and the Quartermaster General, saw no reason why the troops should not go into these barracks. It should be stated that the second examination made by Mr. Tindall with the smoke test was very searching. He might also say that he had himself looked into the matter, and the weekly Returns still showed that the health of the troops had not suffered.
  THE EARL OF ARRANagain remarked, while obliged to his noble Friend for the answer he had given, which was to a great extent satisfactory, that there were great discrepancies between the Reports sent in, and that Captain Tindall's Reports gave different reasons for what was complained of. He would refer to the matter on a future occasion, as he did not quite understand it, being a bit of an engineer himself.
  LORD SANDHURSTpointed out that Mr. Tindall's second examination was much more searching than the first, and that though in the first instance he said it would be useless to spend money on these barracks, he had since stated that there could be no complaint when the drains were finally re-constructed.
  THE EARL OF ARRANsaid, he understood the troops were going there?
  LORD SANDHURSTsaid, that was So, on the advice received from the Quartermaster General and Inspector General of Fortifications.

COUNTY SURVEYORS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with an Amendment: The said Amendment to be considered To-morrow.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 4) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been dispensed with) Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.
NAVAL DEFENCE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been dispensed with) Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY moved, "That the House do adjourn to Three o'clock to-morrow."
LORD DENMANsaid, he thought it impolitic on the part of Her Majesty's Government to postpone the Sittings of that House without affording an opportunity of putting an end to the present coal strike, the most unfortunate strike that had ever occurred in this country. Railway traffic was to some extent suspended, and the crisis required to be dealt with. An opportunity ought to be afforded for a declaration of the opinion of Parliament in both Houses.
House adjourned at Twelve o'clock, till to-morrow, Three o'clock.