THIRD READING. (Hansard, 4 September 1893)

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I wish merely to make an appeal to the noble Lord. It appears 1854 we are to have an agreeable November and December in this admirable climate, and I think it would be agreeable to your Lordships if he would join in providing us with some little work for the period. I do not think the noble Lord has taken advantage of us, or done anything of which we have a right to complain; but, as a matter of fact, this Bill did slip through without any of us knowing what had been done. This is due to the extraordinary extent to which this House requires that system of reference as to which we so often have had reason to complain. I defy any lay person upon a mere reading of the Bill to find out what it means; but with all the advantage of having the Statute Book by one and tracing from point to point what it refers to it is very difficult to find out what the object of it is. It has come as a surprise not only upon us, but upon the persons whom it directly affects, who are principally fisher-men engaged in sailing vessels on our Eastern Coast. As I under-stand the case, there is already an Act which subjects those who work steamers in the fishing industry on the East Coast to an examination under the Board of Trade, and this is a measure proposing to extend the liability to examination from steamers to sailing vessels. Now, to the principle of the measure, I have no objection at all. I am not quite such a believer in examinations, perhaps, as the noble Lord; but it is quite reasonable, I think, that persons should be subjected to examination who have the charge of other people's lives in their hands. What I demur to is that this demand should be made upon men who have already entered upon their career, have spent a considerable part of their lives in this work, and who you may be quite certain, whatever happened, could not pass an examination. It means to them the cutting off of their livelihood, a condemnation to poverty. I do not think there is any case of inconvenience or danger made out which justifies you in enforcing so hard a measure upon an industrious population, and I am not in the least surprised at the terror with which these fishermen have heard of the fate in store for them. I would ask your Lord-ships, with all the advantages of your education, if it, was suddenly said that you should not enjoy your incomes unless 1855 you passed in a competitive examination, how many of you would look at the prospect with equanimity? That is the measure which you are preparing for the unfortunate fishermen in sailing vessels on the East Coast. No doubt the noble Lord will toll me that the Board will not be allowed to impose this examination unless it is absolutely necessary. I am sure that will not be considered a satisfactory answer by the population whom it concerns. I believe the Board is guided by equity and judgment, and I do not, in the least, fear that any ill-use would be made of its powers by the present Board; but nobody can foresee into whose hands its powers will fall, and I simply desire to take care, as far as the Department is concerned, that no evil use will be made of those powers when given. I can quite understand that these people upon whom you are inflicting this measure would demur to it very much. I might have proposed a number of Amendments which would have expressed my views; but they are difficult to deal with in a full House, and it seems to me more reasonable, if the noble Lord will agree, to send it back to the Committee, and there to discuss the provisions one by one in detail, and see whether some better arrangement cannot be arrived at by the Board of Trade with reference to these people, who are, I am sure your Lordships will think, worthy of every consideration.

§ *LORD PLAYFAIR

said, this was not a Government Bill, but a private measure originally brought in in 1892 by Mr. Heneage, the Member for Grimsby. It was modified by the Board of Trade during that year, and Mr. Heneage approved of the modifications, and introduced it again. It was, therefore, before the fishing population, if they had chosen to take any interest in it. It was not for the purpose of imposing any examination upon fishermen generally. It simply provided, as vessels were growing in size, that upon those above 25 tons, if any accident happened to the master, there might be somebody aboard 1856 with a knowledge of navigation sufficient to safely bring the vessel home. It was, therefore, for the purpose of applying examinations to the second hand, or mate. The Board of Trade had already power to require that a certificate of competency should be obtained by a master. That was the whole of the Bill. At the same time, he agreed with the noble Marquess that they should not push the measure through rapidly without the knowledge of the fishermen who were interested in it. They were, he believed, divided in opinion. It originally arose from the action of one section of the fishermen at Grimsby, and there was another section represented by the Smack Owners' Association who did not approve of it. He had taken every precaution that the Bill should not be hurried through the House, and he had postponed it from week to week, and from month to month, in order that those interested might have the opportunity of considering it. He would be glad to meet the views of the noble Marquess, and to obtain the opinion of the Board of Trade on the matter during the Recess.