MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS. (Hansard, 4 September 1893)

*THE BISHOP OF CHESTER
moved— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying her to withhold her assent to the following portions of the Cardiganshire Intermediate and Technical Education Scheme: —Page 10 (Clause 48), lines 29 to 37 inclusive; pages 16 and 17, the whole of Part VII., namely, the whole of page 16 and also page 17, down to the end of line 27. He said that, though the matter to which he was calling their Lordships' attention was in one sense trifling, it raised an important question. The scheme affected only a sparsely-populated district in Cardiganshire, containing not more than 8,000 inhabitants, and it involved very little in money or even status; but it involved principles of justice, religious liberty, and respect for the rights of conscience. The scheme provided no county school for the Lampeter district. There was already a good school there, largely attended by the sons of Nonconformist parents, but it was connected with St. David's College, and the Education Committee had determined that boys from the Lampeter district who won County Scholarships should not be allowed to go to the school connected with St. David's College, but must go either to Aberystwith, Aberayeon, or Cardigan. In the next county, Carmarthenshire, there was also a flourishing school—Llandovery—and the authorities had wisely determined that it might be attended by boys winning County Scholarships. Referring briefly to the growth of this school, after the Report of Lord Aberdare's Commission was issued, the authorities of St. David's College had to consider what their attitude would be as affecting both 1842 primary and intermediate education in Wales, and the first plan upon which they corresponded with Lord Abordare was to transplant the College to the little City of Llandaff, which had Cardiff at its doors, the object being to have the two Colleges close together in order to gain the advantages afforded by proximity. Lord Abordare, and others who were consulted, considered the proposal favourably. Though they were all in sympathy with the proposal, it had to be abandoned, owing to insuperable practical obstacles. That showed what the attitude of Lampeter had been towards the University. An endeavour was then made to develop St. David's College at Lampeter, and among other things a College School was founded with the aid of friends and members. The Lampeter school adopted from the first a remarkable Conscience Clause, proposed by Lord Aberdare's Commission, which required that every parent should choose for his son whether ho should or should not have religious instruction, thus placing the brunt of responsibility on the parents. In 1885 the school contained boys whose parents belonged to the six principal Nonconformist denominations, and to-day all but Roman Catholics wore represented. There could be no doubt about the efficiency of the school, and yet the scheme deliberately deprived the ratepayers from taking advantage of this school close to their doors. The cost of education was greatly increased when a parent had to send his boy to a distant school as a boarder. In Carmarthenshire quite a different plan had been adopted, and he failed to see any reason which applied there specially as against Cardiganshire. It might be said to be now too late, and that if this clause wore struck out of the scheme the House would be obstructing the course of intermediate education in Wales; but the real obstructionists were surely they who had introduced a narrow-minded and unjust restriction into this scheme. The Lampeter County Council, the Lampeter School Board, and the Lampeter Board of Guardians had each petitioned against the scheme as "unjust and injurious"; and if their protest was rather late, it was because they thought that more equitable terms were to be offered to the neighbourhood by the Charity Commissioners or the Education 1843 Department. The Charity Commissioners did, in fact, propose an alternative scheme, which would permit parents to send their children to Lampeter School if it were brought within the Endowed Schools Act; but that scheme could not be accepted by the College Authorities until they had seen it, for the school was in the grounds of St. David's College and was maintained largely by the College funds. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the College should know what the scheme was going to be before they could accept it. It was suggested by the Vice President that the difficulty might be met by a supplemental scheme; but it was better to prevent than to cure injustice, and Parliament ought not to allow a scheme which committed flagrant and acknowledged injustice to go out with its imprimatur. The success of this Motion need not entail any delay, for that part of the scheme dealing with the Scholarships would be alone stayed, and the rest could go forth. He thought at first that certain words in Clause 84 obviated the injustice by permitting the School Managers upon the request of the parent of the holder of the Scholarship to choose the school; but he now found that that interpretation of the clause was not correct, and that it rather bore upon the interchange of boundaries as between the county schools of Carmarthen, Cardigan, and Pembroke.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)
My Lords, I am not at all able to admit that there has been flagrant injustice done here, in the very strong words used by my right rev. Friend. I do not think there has been any injustice done at all. This is a matter of arrangement, and I will explain to your Lordships exactly what has occurred. As the right rev. Prelate has observed, the simple case is that there is a particular district in Cardiganshire where there is no county school; and, 1844 therefore, the Scholarships to be established in that district will have to be held elsewhere—that is, in accordance with the precedent in the Carmarthenshire case, whore there is a similar scheme. It is provided for the scheme that, unless otherwise ordered by School Managers on the special request of parents, Scholarships shall be tenable at any county school. I do not read those words in the narrow sense which the right rev. Prelate has attached to them. I look upon them as giving a plain discretion; so that, if there were parents who desired that their children should go into a school in this district not being a county school, that discretion may be exercised by the Managers. This provision seems to meet, as it was intended to meet, the difficulty raised by the right rev. Prelate. As to the alleged hardship that Llandovery School in the neighbourhood should be recognised whilst Lampeter School was not, the former is a large endowed school in which the Conscience Clause is adopted, and Lampeter is not endowed under the Act of Parliament. The Joint Committee objected to placing in the position of a county school a school over which the County Authority will have no jurisdiction. Upon the whole, no injustice is done. It is following established precedents; and it will be possible that Lampeter School shall hereafter be adopted as a county school. I simply look upon this as a case where an arrangement has been fairly made; and if hereafter it is thought that Lampeter School, having come within the Endowed Schools Act, may reasonably be recognised as an endowed school, that may easily be done. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not adopt the Motion.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl whether the scheme suggested by the Charity Commissioners was considered by the Department?

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
Yes.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
And whether that scheme was upon the basis that if any school hereafter became an endowed school under the Charity Commissioners it should be open as a school for holding Scholarships?

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
That is what I mean. As a matter of fact, the Education Department have overruled the Charity Commissioners that there should be a wider scope given in the education of children. The Department was desirous that the children should be put on an equality. The question is not so much between the two schools as it is a question for the children and parents, who are cut off from the use of a good local school existing in their midst. It was proposed by the Charity Commissioners, and rejected by the Education Department, that in such circumstances parents should be able to send their children to the local school, and should not be obliged to send them to a distance to obtain their education. The general idea is that in all parts of the country scholars who gain prizes and Scholarships shall be educated in the district to which they belong. Under the scheme the scholars of the Lampeter district would have to be sent to a county school away from the district. This is not compatible with a system the main object of which is to bring a cheap education to every man's door. I cannot understand why the scheme has been drawn so narrowly in regard to places where county schools are not in existence. What has been done is to make it an absolutely exclusive system against the wish of the Charity Commissioners, who wished it to be otherwise, and the mistake can be remedied by suspending the clause until Lampeter comes under the Endowed Schools Commission.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
I have only one observation to make. I do not understand whether the right rev. Prelate wishes to omit the whole of Part VII. I am not saying that I agree to the omission of Clause 84; but why he wishes to suspend it with regard to Scholarships over the whole country I do not understand. I thought the object 1846 he had in view would have been entirely satisfied by moving as to Section 84.

*THE BISHOP OF CHESTER
said, he had no wish to be unreasonable, but it seemed desirable that the whole question of Scholarships should be reconsidered, and there would be really no delay. He was glad to hear the Lord President's interpretation of Clause 84, but he had heard quite another interpretation of it, and must still be rather sceptical. As to Llandovery School, its Head Master was required to be in Holy Orders; whereas at Lampeter he was not. With regard to any jealousy as to Llandovery School, it was really not a question between the schools at all, but for the parents, and the strong language to which the noble Lord referred was simply a ([notation from the protest of the Local Authorities concerned. He asked their Lordships to adopt the Motion in order to secure the reconsideration of what seemed at the best somewhat ambiguous treatment of the Scholarships and Exhibitions in Cardiganshire.