*THE EARL OF MINTOasked the Under Secretary of State for War whether he had had under his consideration the advisability of reserving situations in the Government offices to be open preferentially for the employment of such discharged non-commissioned officers and soldiers of good character as might be able to pass the requisite examination; and whether a Report on the feasibility and the advisability of such a scheme had been made by any Committee; and, if so, whether such Report could be laid on the Tables of both Houses? He expressed some diffidence 1221 in addressing their Lordships' House for the first time upon so important a matter. Their Lordships were well aware that this country had a Short Service Army, which annually discharged from its ranks a large number of non-commissioned officers and men who had to shift for themselves for employment and had practically to begin life over again. Our Army was not raised on the same lines as the Armies of Continental Powers, which had conscription, and could pick and choose their men, while all we could do was to hold out inducements to the best class of men to join the Army. He did not think that any increase of money pay, infinitesimally small such as the taxpayers would be content to give, would have any appreciable effect on recruiting. What would be likely to have much more effect would be an improvement in the social standard of the soldier, greater care for his comfort, impressing on the public respect for the Queen's uniform, and, above all, the assurance that if he served a certain number of years with a good character, there would be certain Civil employments open to him, so that he need not have any fear for the future. It should be recollected that the Army had changed very much of late years, morally and educationally. The men were very much better educated, and drunkenness had greatly decreased. Still, there was a difficulty in getting people to employ discharged soldiers, who were consequently shut out from many posts for which they were well qualified. As he had said, education had done a great deal for the soldier, and drunkenness in the Army had largely diminished. The General Annual Return for the Army for 1891 contained a Return of men fined for drunkenness in each year from 1872 to 1891. He would give from that Return two examples. In 1881 the fines inflicted for drunkenness were 44,108; in 1891 they were 29,698. In other words, in 1881 the proportion was 243 to 1,000 men, while in 1891 it was only 147 to 1,000 men, the total reduction in the number of fines being 14,410 in 11 years. Their Lordships must, however, remember that the same men were fined over and over again, and, therefore, the number of men fined for drunkenness was much less than the number of fines. With regard to education, the same 1222 Return showed that in 1879 the number of men in the Army who could neither read nor write was 7,597, or a proportion of 44 to 1,000; in 1889 it was only 3,814, or a proportion of 19 to 1,000. In 1879 the number of men of superior education in the Army was 85,566, or a proportion of 512 to 1,000; in 1889 it was 170,522, or a proportion of 854 to 1,000. He had not been able to find a Return of the number of discharged soldiers serving in Government offices, but those who so served were chiefly employed as messengers, and not at all in the higher places. There were now a very large number of non-commissioned officers, very highly educated, who were leaving the Army, and who were quite as capable of holding Civil posts as those who now held them, and he believed, in many cases, a great deal more capable. A soldier who had served his country well, holding a high-class certificate, surely had a greater claim upon the Government than any merely civilian clerk could possibly have. This was a matter which the State itself ought to take up. He was quite aware that the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Post Office bad of late largely employed discharged soldiers, and had done a great deal of good in that way. He believed those who were so employed had discharged their duties very satisfactorily. But the voluntary employment of discharged soldiers in Government offices and by private employers was an entirely different thing from that recognised employment by the State which he had in view. What should be done was this: any recruit on joining the Army should be informed that, on his discharge with a good character after a certain number of years' service, and on passing a sufficient examination, he would have a Civil appointment open to him. That would put the matter on a sounder basis, and the Service upon an entirely different footing. If such an alteration were made, it need not involve any increased charge upon the Public Purse. The only loss that he could see would be of a certain amount of patronage in the Government offices. Foreign countries had recognised the great necessity of leavening a young Army with old soldiers, and they held out inducements to men to serve for 12 years on the understanding that they should receive Civil employment at the end of the time. 1223 A Report from Colonel Douglaes Dawson, our military attaché in Austria-Hungary, showed that 59,641 were open to discharged soldiers. Another sent by Colonel Talbot from France showed that the most important inducement to soldiers to remain in the ranks had been not increases of pay, but the certainty afforded to well-conducted men of obtaining employment under the State. Colonel Talbot also alluded to the difference in the soldier's position in France and in this country, the uniform being always treated there with respect. Lord Vivian, Her Majesty's Ambassador at Borne, had forwarded a similar Report from Colonel Slade, showing that to provide employment for men leaving the Services with a good character was the best means of popularising and raising the moral tone of the Services by attracting a better class of men. In Foreign Armies the object, of course, was to induce men to serve on with the colours, while our difficulty was to induce men to join the Army at all. He would suggest some arrangement by which a certain number of situations in the Public Service should be reserved for old soldiers, and that those situations should be divided into two classes— upper and lower. The upper class should consist of clerkships and the better-paid offices suitable for non-commissioned officers—educated men; whilst the lower class, such as messengerships and porterships, should be given to soldiers. If such a plan were adopted and carried out, it would not only induce men to remain in the Service, but would do much to allay the discontent and discouragement which now existed in the minds of soldiers, and of non-commissioned officers especially. He begged to ask the question which he had placed on the Paper.
§ VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he desired to put in a word for the Sister Service. While he hoped Her Majesty's Government would not hesitate to give the pledge asked on behalf of noncommissioned officers and men of the Army, he trusted they would not forget the warrant officers and good-conduct men discharged from the Navy. He would point out that it would hardly be fair for the Government to pledge themselves entirely to the Army on a question of this kind, and not give any considera- 1224 tion to the claims of the men of the Navy. Difficult as it might be for a discharged non-commissioned officer to obtain civilian employment, it was much more so for men who had spent all their lives at sea.
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSthought the noble Earl had done a public service by bringing this matter forward. It was a question of importance not only to the Services—for the men of both Services should be considered—but to the country. The English War Office was the only one in Europe where civilians ruled, and he thought that positions in that Department especially should be found for noncommissioned officers and soldiers, and even for commissioned officers who might be willing to take them. In this we should only be following the example of other countries. We endeavoured to model our Army on the German system of short service, but we left out the important element of compulsion, which was the essence of the German plan, and gave no adequate inducement to men to join the Service voluntarily. Therefore, we had a bad imitation of a Short Service Army. He hoped the noble Lord representing the War Office would give a favourable answer to the request of the noble Lord.
§ LORD DORCHESTERsaid, the subject was a very important one, and he regretted not only that the House was so scantily filled, but, the absence on that occasion of two of our most distinguished Generals, and especially of the illustrious Duke, who took a deep interest in all that concerned the welfare of the Army. Hitherto the British soldier's life had been one of punishment without reward. He could say that fearlessly, having served under the Queen's colours more than 50 years ago. Why did soldiers not get any reward in the direction suggested when they left the Service? It was, in his opinion, because of Parliamentary influence and the influence of private individuals in high places. Until it was clearly understood that those who wore the Queen's livery, and who were the worst paid of Her Majesty's subjects, would have some employment on leaving the Army there would be no real inducement for men to enter the Service. If, however, such an inducement were offered, the Service would be made a hundred times more 1225 popular than it had over been. At one time the soldier's uniform would prevent his being allowed into Kensington Gardens, one of the Queen's Parks. With the exception of the Yeomen of the Guard and a few such corps, he hardly knew an instance where old soldiers were employed in public institutions or buildings. Certainly a sergeant who had served under him was now a gatekeeper at the National Gallery. But where there was one appointed to a public office there ought to be hundreds. The late Postmaster General, and also one of the highest officials of their Lordships' House, had done much to promote the interests of the soldier in this way; but there was room and opportunity to do much more, and he hoped the representations of the noble Earl would have the desired effect. He remembered that when he called on the late German Ambassador the door of the Embassy was always opened by an old German soldier decorated with the medals he bad won serving his country. How many Members of their Lordships' House, and how many Members of the other House, selected soldiers to serve them? So far from being employed, they were rather rejected. To a great extent the remedy rested with employers. He trusted that the unpopularity of the soldiers among the classes would soon be a thing of the past, and that the public example set by the Postmaster General of the late Government would soon be followed and succeeded by the present Administrations.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALDreminded the House that in 1891 he brought before their Lordships the necessity of finding Civil employment for deserving non-commissioned officers on the expiration of their period of service. So far back as 1877 a Committee reported that a large number of Civil posts under Government could be suitably filled by discharged soldiers and sailors. That Report, however, was practically ignored by successive Governments. He hoped that this apathy on the part of the authorities would now cease. If the country could not afford to give noncommissioned officers, who were the backbone of the Army, adequate pensions on retirement, facilities ought to be given to them to outer the Civil Service. A certain number of posts ought to be kept 1226 for them exclusively, and to obtain these posts they should be required to pass a qualifying examination only upon the recommendation of their Commanding Officer. Of course, they could not be expected to compete after their term of service with lads just fresh from school, who were crammed with every trick for passing the examinations. This would do more for the benefit of the Service than anything else that could be devised.
LORD SANDHURSTconsidered that the discussion had been very profitable. He might inform the noble Earl who had just sat down that the Report of the Committee of 1877 had had some good effects, one of them being that since 1879 nearly all the messengers appointed at the War Office had been soldiers, and he did not believe any more civilian appointments would be made. At the Admiralty, in like manner, the messengers were old sailors. The valuable suggestions of Lord Wantage's Committee on the subject under discussion were being considered by the Secretary of State for War, as were also the proposals that had been made for keeping non-commissioned officers in the Service for a longer time. The example set by the War Office in the employment of old soldiers had been followed by the Post Office, and he should be very glad if other Public Departments would also follow it. The great Railway Companies had come forward with great public spirit, and had promised to give a large number of situations to soldiers. In last, year's Queen's Regulations it was provided that official registers should be kept at the head-quarters of recruiting depôts, upon which well-conducted men who had joined the Reserve or were time-expired, and who wanted employment, could place their names; and there existed a Society known as the "National Association for Finding Employment for Old Soldiers." This Association had been eight years in existence, and did very important work. Whilst eight years ago it provided work for 184 men only, last year it procured situations for upwards of 2,600. A Departmental Committee that had recently considered the subject of the employment of soldiers as messengers in the public offices recommended that the example set by the War Office, Admiralty, and Post Office should be followed by the other great 1227 Departments. He had explained to the House what was being done within his knowledge for the benefit of the retired soldier. He did not know of any such scheme as was mentioned in the noble Earl's question; but he could state that the Secretary of State was in complete sympathy with the noble Lords who had spoken on this subject, and would gladly do anything in his power to further the object which they had at heart.
*THE EARL OF MINTOsaid, in reference to the statement of the noble Lord the Under Secretary for War, that no doubt a great deal of good was being done by the Departments and public offices mentioned, but what he wanted to make clear was that all that was an entirely different thing from making it a right; so that the time-expired soldier might look to the State as a right for employment on leaving the Service. All those voluntary employments might break down to-morrow, and that guarantee ought to be given by the State. He had also intended to point out that while a discharged soldier was still in the service of the State he ought to be allowed to count his time for pension.
LORD SANDHURSTsaid, that was a much larger question, and he was not able to make any general statement on the subject. At the same time, he would take care to bring the point before the Secretary of State, so that the whole matter might be taken into consideration.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNthought the statement of the Under Secretary would be generally satisfactory to their Lordships, but it was to be hoped that a great deal would be done in other Departments besides the War Office. He would suggest that it might be desirable that a Parliamentary Committee should be appointed to inquire into the matter to see whether the system could not be carried further. As far as that House was concerned, their Lordships had done what they could to forward the interests of old soldiers, for it had been ordered that in any junior appointments in then Lordships' House preference should be given to soldiers and sailors. One difficulty was that objection was sometimes raised to a soldier drawing his military pension when he was in Civil employment. It appeared to him—and he 1228 thought it was a matter in which Parliament should express an opinion—that when a soldier had earned a pension by military service, he ought not to be debarred from receiving also any Civil pension to which he might subsequently become entitled in Civil Service.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALDpointed out that out of the 4,768 posts reported by Lord Wantage's Committee as suitable for discharged soldiers and sailors, only 220 had been filled with those men between 1877 and 1891.