Lords Sitting of 18 May 1893

NEW PEER.
Sir Archibald Campbell Campbell, of Blythswood, in the county of Renfrew, Baronet, having been created Baron Blythswood of Blythswood in the county of Renfrew—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 54.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1.
  THE EARL OF ARRANsaid that, having found, on consultation with those interested in this matter, that Lord Rookwood's Amendment to this clause, which came after his own, for leaving out, in line 8, from the word "and," to the end of the clause, was likely to be more popular and more in agreement with public opinion in Ireland than that Amendment, he begged to withdraw it.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he believed that, if time had permitted, a strong Memorial would have been forwarded from all the towns proposed to be brought under the operation of the Bill against being touched by it, but their Corporations would not meet until the beginning of next month, and therefore they would have no opportunity of sending up any resolutions to their Lordships' House on the subject. He therefore, in accepting any Amendment, desired, on the part of those who might wish to bring forward any such resolutions, to reserve to himself freedom to make any proposal at a later stage of the Bill.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  LORD ROOKWOOD LORD ROOKWOOD moved, in Clause I, line 8, to leave out all the words after ("on") and to insert—
  ("Sundays within the Metropolitan Police District of Dublin Metropolis, and within the Cities of Cork, Limerick, and Waterford, and the town of Belfast, shall, instead of the hours now fixed by that Act, be the hours from 2 to 5 p.m.")
  He apologised to the Irish Peers for venturing to interfere in a matter which concerned them more vitally than himself; but, at the same time, he perceived the dangers that might arise, especially in large cities, from any violent interference with the existing state of things until the House was satisfied not only that a majority of the people were in favour of it, but that it was practically the unanimous wish in any particular town. He was old enough to remember what, took place when a similar attempt was made to limit the hours of closing in this Metropolis, the riots which followed it, and its having to be at once abandoned; and he was certain that any attempt of the kind would throw back for years, if not entirely, endeavours to deal with the subject. He was as anxious as any of their Lordships to see the cause of temperance advanced in Ireland as well as in this country, and quite admitted that the Act of 1878 had been in the rural districts a beneficent measure, and should be made permanent, as this was proposed to be, instead of being merely a continuing Act. But in regard to the towns which had hitherto been exempted from the operation of that Act, it would be far safer to begin with them in a tentative way, and to accept the proposals of the large minority of the Committee on Hours of Closing which sat in 1877. The hours now in force were practically the proposal of Mr. Madden, the Chairman, against a large section of that Committee. Shortening the hours, instead of entirely closing on Sundays, would, he thought, be the safer course, and he therefore begged to move this Amendment; but, as it had been pointed out to him that some of the later words would refer to something different to what he had intended, he would put the Amendment in the form "to leave out all the words after 'on,' and insert—
  "Sundays within the Metropolitan Police District of Dublin Metropolis, and within the Cities of Cork. Limerick, and Waterford, and file town of Belfast, shall be read as if the hour of 5 o'clock were substituted therein for the hour of 7 o'clock."
  That would carry out what he intended, and would be a better form of Amendment.
  LORD O'NEILLbelieved that Lord Rookwood had expressed the views of many of their Lordships, and he had

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  come to the conclusion that some Amendment of the kind was inevitable. The introduction of such an Amendment might be a disappointment to some who had supported the Bill on the Second Reading; but he felt he could not recommend the supporters of the Bill to resist the Amendment of the noble Lord, in view of the opinions so strongly expressed since the Debate on the Second Reading. Still, the evidence which had been given before the Committee went to show that in Belfast the feeling was almost unanimous in favour of the adoption of the Bill, and he should therefore propose to amend the Amendment so as to extend Sunday closing to the City of Belfast. Therefore, supposing their Lordships accepted the noble Lord's Amendment, he would propose to re-amend it by leaving out the words "in the town of Belfast," and by adding at the end the words "in the city of Belfast the closing shall be for the whole of Sundays."
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he had been asked by employers and others to adopt a similar course with regard to Limerick, from which city he presented several Petitions praying that entire Sunday closing might be extended to that city. Among the petitioners were the Young Men's Christian Association, the Baptist Church, the Congregational Church, and 66 of the principal employers and residents in Limerick, all desiring that that city should be included in the operation of the Bill. The last-mentioned Petition had also been signed by the Mayor and Sheriff of the city, and by the Protestant Bishop. The Roman Catholic Bishop, Dr. O'Brien, also was well-known to be in favour of the Bill, but was absent at the time the Petition was prepared.
  THE EARL OF MEATHhad been asked to say that it was not desired to include Dublin in the Bill in the same way as the two noble Lords had suggested with regard to Belfast and Limerick. It was found that in Dublin three hours was really a little too long for the public-houses to be kept open on Sundays. The opinion prevailed in different quarters that two hours would be quite sufficient to meet the needs of those who required to go to public-houses on Sunday, and accordingly he would be prepared to support Lord Rookwood in his Amendment if the noble Lord would
  1216
  kindly substitute 4 o'clock instead of 5 as the closing hour.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Earl SPENCER): My Lords, with regard to the course the Government will take on this question, I feel, I confess, some little difficulty. We should have been glad, considering the difference of opinion that exists with regard to the Amendments, to have taken time to consider the course which we think it advisable to follow. On the one hand, it is clear that in some towns, like Belfast, there is a strong opinion in favour of the Bill as originally framed. The noble Lord who spoke last but one (Lord Monteagle) appears to take the same view with regard to Limerick. On the other hand, Dublin is disposed to agree to the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord opposite, modified perhaps to the extent of one hour as referred to by my noble Friend Lord Meath. All these matters are deserving of careful consideration, and I therefore, on the whole, would be disposed to vote with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Rookwood) if it came to a Division. I would rather, however, the matter should be reserved for consideration before the Standing Committee, and then I shall be prepared on the part of the Government to take a more decisive line on the subject. Inquiries are being made-in Ireland with a view to ascertaining the general feeling of the localities concerned on the subject. I think, therefore, it would be better not to divide the House on the present occasion.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, if the noble Lord went to a Division he should certainly vote with him; but he thought after what had fallen from the noble Earl on the Government Bench, if a little longer delay were accorded, their Lordships would be placed in possession of the views of the people in the corporate towns affected by the Bill, who would thus be afforded the opportunity of showing whether they were or not in favour of it. Whatever action might be taken that day, he must reserve to himself liberty to consult those Corporate Bodies on the subject.
  LORD ROOKWOODsaid, he gathered from what had been said by noble Lords that his Amendment was not really objected to, though they might wish to further amend it. If his Amendment

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  were now engrafted in the Bill, the whole matter could afterwards be discussed in Standing Committee. None of the proposed Amendments would be prejudiced by the adoption of his own, if left open for further alteration should it be necessary.
  THE EARL OF MEATHsaid, he thought a discussion in Standing Committee would be quite sufficient.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): I would suggest to the noble Lord that be should hardly guide himself entirely by what has been said by my noble Friend. This is not a Government Bill; and although we are very glad to give assistance in the matter and to express our opinion, yet it must not be considered as decisive. My noble Friend only suggested that it might be desirable to delay amending the Bill because he was aware that careful inquiries were being made on the subject in Ireland, for there seems to be a good deal of doubt as to what is the true feeling in some of the towns. I should, therefore, much prefer that the noble Lord who moved the Amendment should not persevere with it. I must say I do not see the logic of putting it in the Bill merely to amend it afterwards. All we can say in the matter at present is that nobody seems to be in a position to afford the House all the information we ought to have before us in order to decide upon a question of considerable difficulty.
  VISCOUNT POWERSCOURT: I understand the Leader of the House has made an appeal to the noble Lord opposite to withdraw his Amendment?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I do, rather.
  LORD ROOKWOODsaid, that under the circumstances he was not prepared to withdraw his Amendment on the present occasion. He only wished to get the Amendment fairly before the Committee to be considered on its merits, when it would be seen to be in accordance with the action which, in the general opinion, should be taken in the matter.
  *LORD KNUTSFORDhad some doubt whether such a question as the inclusion of the towns mentioned could properly be raised before the Standing Committee,
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  but it might be brought forward at a later stage on Report, or the Committee might now be adjourned.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I do not think there could be any objection in point of Order in those Amendments being then raised. Your Lordships will remember that it must come before the House again on Report afterwards. We do not wish to prejudice the noble Lord's Amendment in the least. We only desire that it should not be pressed now.
  *LORD KNUTSFORD: It comes before the House again on Report, not in Committee.
  LORD HALSBURY: I do not think there would be any technical objection to this being discussed before the Standing Committee, though, no doubt, it is not the class of thing which is generally discussed there. I think it would be rather a precedent for our discussing what is more a Second Reading business than a question of this sort.
  *LORD KNUTSFORD: It is really only a matter of convenience of procedure; and if no objection is felt to raising this question in Standing Committee, I do not see that it need be pressed now.
  LORD HALSBURY: It is merely it question of technicality.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I understand that the noble Lord opposite would rather prefer that the Bill should come before the Standing Committee than a Committee of the whole House.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, under these circumstances, I would suggest that the proper course would be that this Debate should be adjourned.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Quite so; that would be the better course, I think.
  Debate adjourned accordingly.
  House resumed; and to be again in Committee on Monday the 12th June next.

RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR) BILL.—(No. 73)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order)
  Clause 1.
  LORD PLAYFAIRproposed an Amendment on this clause, which he said was of some importance. Your Lordships

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  will recollect that if there was any dispute between railway servants and their employers as to overwork those disputes were to be considered by the Board of Trade, who would settle the question between them; but that if they failed, the disputes should be taken to the Railway and Canal Commissioners. The latter body had two powers—one administrative, to try and settle the dispute which the Board of Trade had failed to do; the other a judicial power of enforcing penalties if the two parties could not come to an agreement. The object of the Amendment is to limit the administrative power of the Railway and Canal Commissioners to two appointed members—that is, in the present case Sir Frederick Peel and Lord Cobham; and that the Judges who are engaged in judicial duties in the High Court should not be called upon to take part in the administrative part of the Act, but should be able to be called in case of any judicial question. The Railway and Canal Commissioners are strongly of opinion that an Amendment should be made to this effect, and I now beg to move it.
  Amendment moved,
  In Clause 1, page 2, line 17, after ("Act") to insert ("provided that notwithstanding anything in section five of that Act the jurisdiction of the commission for the purposes of this Act may be exercised by the two appointed Commissioners "), and in line 18, after ("railway") insert ("and canal").—(The Lord- Playfair.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 102.)

  STANDING ORDERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
  Standing Order No. XVI. considered.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in moving that the following alteration be made in Standing Order No. XVI.—
  In place of the words "betwixt the hours of nine in the morning and five in the evening," insert the words "at any convenient time when the House is sitting either for judicial or other business."
  said: My Lords, I have heard of many occasions on which noble Lords who have not taken the oath on coming down for that purpose after the hour of 5 o'clock have been much disappointed to find they could not do so under the
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  Standing Order, and have not been able in consequence to take their seats and take part in the business of the House. There appears to he no reason whatever for so rigid a rule, and I have worded my Resolution "at any convenient time." I imagine that would be any time that the Lord Chancellor fixed; but if the noble and learned Lord sees any objection, I do not press it, though I think myself it would be better to leave it in an indefinite position.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not think there will be any practical inconvenience. I can hardly conceive the possibility of a noble Lord insisting upon taking his seat at a time when the Lord Chancellor is engaged in his judicial business, which he would have to break off for the purpose; for, of course, unless the Lord Chancellor is on the Woolsack a noble Lord cannot take his seat. The matter is in the hands of the Lord Chancellor, but I do not think any practical difficulty will arise.
  *THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, the principal difficulty was with regard to the Tuesday Sittings. On Tuesdays on more than one occasion noble Lords have come down to take their seats and have found under the present Standing Order that they have not been able to do so. I know of three cases on last Tuesday in which noble Lords were either actually within or on their way to the House, and have been unable to take their seats.
  Motion agreed to.
  Standing Order to be printed, as amended. (No. 103.)

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYMENT FOR DISCHARGED SOLDIERS

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  *THE EARL OF MINTOasked the Under Secretary of State for War whether he had had under his consideration the advisability of reserving situations in the Government offices to be open preferentially for the employment of such discharged non-commissioned officers and soldiers of good character as might be able to pass the requisite examination; and whether a Report on the feasibility and the advisability of such a scheme had been made by any Committee; and, if so, whether such Report could be laid on the Tables of both Houses? He expressed some diffidence

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  in addressing their Lordships' House for the first time upon so important a matter. Their Lordships were well aware that this country had a Short Service Army, which annually discharged from its ranks a large number of non-commissioned officers and men who had to shift for themselves for employment and had practically to begin life over again. Our Army was not raised on the same lines as the Armies of Continental Powers, which had conscription, and could pick and choose their men, while all we could do was to hold out inducements to the best class of men to join the Army. He did not think that any increase of money pay, infinitesimally small such as the taxpayers would be content to give, would have any appreciable effect on recruiting. What would be likely to have much more effect would be an improvement in the social standard of the soldier, greater care for his comfort, impressing on the public respect for the Queen's uniform, and, above all, the assurance that if he served a certain number of years with a good character, there would be certain Civil employments open to him, so that he need not have any fear for the future. It should be recollected that the Army had changed very much of late years, morally and educationally. The men were very much better educated, and drunkenness had greatly decreased. Still, there was a difficulty in getting people to employ discharged soldiers, who were consequently shut out from many posts for which they were well qualified. As he had said, education had done a great deal for the soldier, and drunkenness in the Army had largely diminished. The General Annual Return for the Army for 1891 contained a Return of men fined for drunkenness in each year from 1872 to 1891. He would give from that Return two examples. In 1881 the fines inflicted for drunkenness were 44,108; in 1891 they were 29,698. In other words, in 1881 the proportion was 243 to 1,000 men, while in 1891 it was only 147 to 1,000 men, the total reduction in the number of fines being 14,410 in 11 years. Their Lordships must, however, remember that the same men were fined over and over again, and, therefore, the number of men fined for drunkenness was much less than the number of fines. With regard to education, the same
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  Return showed that in 1879 the number of men in the Army who could neither read nor write was 7,597, or a proportion of 44 to 1,000; in 1889 it was only 3,814, or a proportion of 19 to 1,000. In 1879 the number of men of superior education in the Army was 85,566, or a proportion of 512 to 1,000; in 1889 it was 170,522, or a proportion of 854 to 1,000. He had not been able to find a Return of the number of discharged soldiers serving in Government offices, but those who so served were chiefly employed as messengers, and not at all in the higher places. There were now a very large number of non-commissioned officers, very highly educated, who were leaving the Army, and who were quite as capable of holding Civil posts as those who now held them, and he believed, in many cases, a great deal more capable. A soldier who had served his country well, holding a high-class certificate, surely had a greater claim upon the Government than any merely civilian clerk could possibly have. This was a matter which the State itself ought to take up. He was quite aware that the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Post Office bad of late largely employed discharged soldiers, and had done a great deal of good in that way. He believed those who were so employed had discharged their duties very satisfactorily. But the voluntary employment of discharged soldiers in Government offices and by private employers was an entirely different thing from that recognised employment by the State which he had in view. What should be done was this: any recruit on joining the Army should be informed that, on his discharge with a good character after a certain number of years' service, and on passing a sufficient examination, he would have a Civil appointment open to him. That would put the matter on a sounder basis, and the Service upon an entirely different footing. If such an alteration were made, it need not involve any increased charge upon the Public Purse. The only loss that he could see would be of a certain amount of patronage in the Government offices. Foreign countries had recognised the great necessity of leavening a young Army with old soldiers, and they held out inducements to men to serve for 12 years on the understanding that they should receive Civil employment at the end of the time.

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  A Report from Colonel Douglaes Dawson, our military attaché in Austria-Hungary, showed that 59,641 were open to discharged soldiers. Another sent by Colonel Talbot from France showed that the most important inducement to soldiers to remain in the ranks had been not increases of pay, but the certainty afforded to well-conducted men of obtaining employment under the State. Colonel Talbot also alluded to the difference in the soldier's position in France and in this country, the uniform being always treated there with respect. Lord Vivian, Her Majesty's Ambassador at Borne, had forwarded a similar Report from Colonel Slade, showing that to provide employment for men leaving the Services with a good character was the best means of popularising and raising the moral tone of the Services by attracting a better class of men. In Foreign Armies the object, of course, was to induce men to serve on with the colours, while our difficulty was to induce men to join the Army at all. He would suggest some arrangement by which a certain number of situations in the Public Service should be reserved for old soldiers, and that those situations should be divided into two classes— upper and lower. The upper class should consist of clerkships and the better-paid offices suitable for non-commissioned officers—educated men; whilst the lower class, such as messengerships and porterships, should be given to soldiers. If such a plan were adopted and carried out, it would not only induce men to remain in the Service, but would do much to allay the discontent and discouragement which now existed in the minds of soldiers, and of non-commissioned officers especially. He begged to ask the question which he had placed on the Paper.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he desired to put in a word for the Sister Service. While he hoped Her Majesty's Government would not hesitate to give the pledge asked on behalf of noncommissioned officers and men of the Army, he trusted they would not forget the warrant officers and good-conduct men discharged from the Navy. He would point out that it would hardly be fair for the Government to pledge themselves entirely to the Army on a question of this kind, and not give any considera-
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  tion to the claims of the men of the Navy. Difficult as it might be for a discharged non-commissioned officer to obtain civilian employment, it was much more so for men who had spent all their lives at sea.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSthought the noble Earl had done a public service by bringing this matter forward. It was a question of importance not only to the Services—for the men of both Services should be considered—but to the country. The English War Office was the only one in Europe where civilians ruled, and he thought that positions in that Department especially should be found for noncommissioned officers and soldiers, and even for commissioned officers who might be willing to take them. In this we should only be following the example of other countries. We endeavoured to model our Army on the German system of short service, but we left out the important element of compulsion, which was the essence of the German plan, and gave no adequate inducement to men to join the Service voluntarily. Therefore, we had a bad imitation of a Short Service Army. He hoped the noble Lord representing the War Office would give a favourable answer to the request of the noble Lord.
  LORD DORCHESTERsaid, the subject was a very important one, and he regretted not only that the House was so scantily filled, but, the absence on that occasion of two of our most distinguished Generals, and especially of the illustrious Duke, who took a deep interest in all that concerned the welfare of the Army. Hitherto the British soldier's life had been one of punishment without reward. He could say that fearlessly, having served under the Queen's colours more than 50 years ago. Why did soldiers not get any reward in the direction suggested when they left the Service? It was, in his opinion, because of Parliamentary influence and the influence of private individuals in high places. Until it was clearly understood that those who wore the Queen's livery, and who were the worst paid of Her Majesty's subjects, would have some employment on leaving the Army there would be no real inducement for men to enter the Service. If, however, such an inducement were offered, the Service would be made a hundred times more

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  popular than it had over been. At one time the soldier's uniform would prevent his being allowed into Kensington Gardens, one of the Queen's Parks. With the exception of the Yeomen of the Guard and a few such corps, he hardly knew an instance where old soldiers were employed in public institutions or buildings. Certainly a sergeant who had served under him was now a gatekeeper at the National Gallery. But where there was one appointed to a public office there ought to be hundreds. The late Postmaster General, and also one of the highest officials of their Lordships' House, had done much to promote the interests of the soldier in this way; but there was room and opportunity to do much more, and he hoped the representations of the noble Earl would have the desired effect. He remembered that when he called on the late German Ambassador the door of the Embassy was always opened by an old German soldier decorated with the medals he bad won serving his country. How many Members of their Lordships' House, and how many Members of the other House, selected soldiers to serve them? So far from being employed, they were rather rejected. To a great extent the remedy rested with employers. He trusted that the unpopularity of the soldiers among the classes would soon be a thing of the past, and that the public example set by the Postmaster General of the late Government would soon be followed and succeeded by the present Administrations.
  THE EARL OF DUNDONALDreminded the House that in 1891 he brought before their Lordships the necessity of finding Civil employment for deserving non-commissioned officers on the expiration of their period of service. So far back as 1877 a Committee reported that a large number of Civil posts under Government could be suitably filled by discharged soldiers and sailors. That Report, however, was practically ignored by successive Governments. He hoped that this apathy on the part of the authorities would now cease. If the country could not afford to give noncommissioned officers, who were the backbone of the Army, adequate pensions on retirement, facilities ought to be given to them to outer the Civil Service. A certain number of posts ought to be kept
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  for them exclusively, and to obtain these posts they should be required to pass a qualifying examination only upon the recommendation of their Commanding Officer. Of course, they could not be expected to compete after their term of service with lads just fresh from school, who were crammed with every trick for passing the examinations. This would do more for the benefit of the Service than anything else that could be devised.
  LORD SANDHURSTconsidered that the discussion had been very profitable. He might inform the noble Earl who had just sat down that the Report of the Committee of 1877 had had some good effects, one of them being that since 1879 nearly all the messengers appointed at the War Office had been soldiers, and he did not believe any more civilian appointments would be made. At the Admiralty, in like manner, the messengers were old sailors. The valuable suggestions of Lord Wantage's Committee on the subject under discussion were being considered by the Secretary of State for War, as were also the proposals that had been made for keeping non-commissioned officers in the Service for a longer time. The example set by the War Office in the employment of old soldiers had been followed by the Post Office, and he should be very glad if other Public Departments would also follow it. The great Railway Companies had come forward with great public spirit, and had promised to give a large number of situations to soldiers. In last, year's Queen's Regulations it was provided that official registers should be kept at the head-quarters of recruiting depôts, upon which well-conducted men who had joined the Reserve or were time-expired, and who wanted employment, could place their names; and there existed a Society known as the "National Association for Finding Employment for Old Soldiers." This Association had been eight years in existence, and did very important work. Whilst eight years ago it provided work for 184 men only, last year it procured situations for upwards of 2,600. A Departmental Committee that had recently considered the subject of the employment of soldiers as messengers in the public offices recommended that the example set by the War Office, Admiralty, and Post Office should be followed by the other great

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  Departments. He had explained to the House what was being done within his knowledge for the benefit of the retired soldier. He did not know of any such scheme as was mentioned in the noble Earl's question; but he could state that the Secretary of State was in complete sympathy with the noble Lords who had spoken on this subject, and would gladly do anything in his power to further the object which they had at heart.
  *THE EARL OF MINTOsaid, in reference to the statement of the noble Lord the Under Secretary for War, that no doubt a great deal of good was being done by the Departments and public offices mentioned, but what he wanted to make clear was that all that was an entirely different thing from making it a right; so that the time-expired soldier might look to the State as a right for employment on leaving the Service. All those voluntary employments might break down to-morrow, and that guarantee ought to be given by the State. He had also intended to point out that while a discharged soldier was still in the service of the State he ought to be allowed to count his time for pension.
  LORD SANDHURSTsaid, that was a much larger question, and he was not able to make any general statement on the subject. At the same time, he would take care to bring the point before the Secretary of State, so that the whole matter might be taken into consideration.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNthought the statement of the Under Secretary would be generally satisfactory to their Lordships, but it was to be hoped that a great deal would be done in other Departments besides the War Office. He would suggest that it might be desirable that a Parliamentary Committee should be appointed to inquire into the matter to see whether the system could not be carried further. As far as that House was concerned, their Lordships had done what they could to forward the interests of old soldiers, for it had been ordered that in any junior appointments in then Lordships' House preference should be given to soldiers and sailors. One difficulty was that objection was sometimes raised to a soldier drawing his military pension when he was in Civil employment. It appeared to him—and he
  1228
  thought it was a matter in which Parliament should express an opinion—that when a soldier had earned a pension by military service, he ought not to be debarred from receiving also any Civil pension to which he might subsequently become entitled in Civil Service.
  THE EARL OF DUNDONALDpointed out that out of the 4,768 posts reported by Lord Wantage's Committee as suitable for discharged soldiers and sailors, only 220 had been filled with those men between 1877 and 1891.

HIGH SHERIFFS.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved that the Lords following be named of the Select Committee:—

  E. Stanhope.

  L. Leconfield.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Coleridge.

  E. Camperdown.

  L. Monk Bretton.

  L. Belper.

  Motion agreed to—The Committee to appoint their own Chairman.

  POLICE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 27.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with an Amendment.
  Commons Amendment to Lords Amendments considered (on Motion), and agreed to.

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 25.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with an Amendment.
  Commons Amendment to Lords Amendments considered (on Motion), and agreed to.

  CHOLERA HOSPITALS (IRELAND) BILL. (No. 40.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  DAY INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 41.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Supreme Courts of Judicature Acts—Was presented by The Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed.— (No. 101.)
  METROPOLITAN COMMONS PROVISIONAL ORDER (ORPINGTON) BILL. —(No. 32.)
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported, without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be real 3a on Tuesday, the 30th instant.
  METROPOLITAN COMMONS PROVISIONAL ORDER (BANSTEAD) BILL. —(No. 51.)
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read, and discharged.
  OYSTER AND MUSSEL FISHERY PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]—(No. 63.)
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  COMMONS REGULATION PROVISIONAL ORDER (WEST TILBURY) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 104.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No 1) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 105.)

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 106.)
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Six o'clock, to Tuesday, the 30th instant, Eleven o'clock.