§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
§ Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
§ *LORD CONNEMARAsaid, he was anxious, with their Lordships' permission, to state his reasons for giving to the principle of this Bill his humble, but cordial, support, particularly with respect to those provisions which affected the Government and Army of Madras. He need hardly remind their Lordships that the Madras Army had an historical record of an interesting and remarkable character. By the bravery and loyalty of that Army under Lord Clive, Sir Eyre Coote, and the Duke of Wellington, the supremacy of Great Britain was firmly established in the whole of the Southern Peninsula. The battles fought under those great Commanders were fought not only against very brave native soldiers, but against European troops, and under the most able French General whom France over sent to India. The result of those campaigns was to add to the sway of the British Crown nearly 30,000,000 of people, and to establish a peace throughout the whole of that great territory, which had lasted now for very nearly 100 years. Coming down to modern times, it would be in the recollection of their Lordships that the Madras 1010 Army stood firm to its allegiance, and bore a distinguished part during the great Mutiny; and it was owing, to a great extent, to the gallantry of that Army that peace was restored in Northern India, while entire tranquillity prevailed during those terrible times in the South of India. Under those circumstances, he was sure their Lordships would desire that full justice and consideration should be shown to the sentiments and feelings of the Madras Army in those changes which their Lordships might think wise to sanction with respect to our Military Forces in India. The Papers on their Lordships' Table showed beyond doubt that the whole condition of affairs with respect to military defence had altered in recent times not only since the Afghan and Punjab Wars, but still more recently. Those who had been connected with the Foreign Office at any time during the last 20 years could not fail to be impressed with the gravity of those events which had taken place in Central Asia. With regard to our trans-Indus frontier, those who had had an opportunity of studying on the spot even with a civilian's eyes the great system of frontier defence; and the changes and reforms which had lately been introduced into the Military and Civil Administration by Lord Dufferin, Lord Lansdowne, and by the untiring energy and genius of Lord Roberts in our trans-Indian territory, could not fail to be deeply impressed with the enormous importance of the problems which our Army might one day be called on to solve without much warning. Again, the annexation of Upper Burmah had made a great alteration in military affairs in that quarter, and had changed altogether the status of the Commander-in-Chief of Madras. It was essential that the conduct of war should be with the Government of India; so Upper Burmah was placed under the direct control of the Government of India, and Lower Burmah under the military jurisdiction of the Government of Madras. Another great change had taken place in India with reference to the frontier tribes between Burmah and Bengal. The extension of the Empire in Burmah had brought under our rule new races who might be expected to contribute their quota to the defence of the Empire. Further, the creation and extension of 1011 railroads and telegraphs had not only changed, but revolutionised every factor in every military question in India. As an illustration of that, he might state that when the East Coast line, which was begun four years ago, was completed, and which he trusted would be pushed forward with vigour, Madras and the whole of the South of India would be in direct railway communication with Calcutta and the North-West, when materials and troops could be moved in safety from Cape Comorin to Lahore in a very few days. Under these circumstances, he fully recognised the wisdom of giving to the Commander-in-Chief in India that direct command and authority over the five armies of which the Indian Forces were composed, and which the Government of India had been struggling to obtain for the last ten years, so long as men of the different Indian races were kept segregrated, which he believed to be the principle and intention of the Bill. As a matter of fact, he did not perceive that there was any great novel principle involved in the Bill which could affect the Sepoys or the Armies of India, for the Government of India could now, without the authority of Parliament and without the consent of the Madras Government, do most things affecting the welfare of the Madras Sepoys and the organisation and efficiency of the Madras Army that could possibly be imagined, very much to the benefit of the Public Service. During the last five years it had amalgamated the Transport, the Commissariat, and the Clothing Departments. It had abolished whole regiments; it had changed three regiments of Madras Infantry into Burmah Police, and recruited them with men from the North. He was far from thinking that the Government of India had been wrong in these changes. Therefore, this Bill only dealt with a remnant of those changes which required the authority of Parliament—changes which had been in progress and active operation for some years. He could not see in this Bill anything which could in any way injuriously affect the Madras Sepoy. On the contrary, he inclined to think that when the Commander-in-Chief in India obtained direct supervision of the Madras Army in common with the other Armies of the Indian Empire, the position of the Sepoy would be improved, 1012 and, what was more important, the efficiency of the Madras Army would be improved. Some people had thought there was, and had been for a long time, room for improvement in the Madras Army. He did not wish to dwell on the causes which had led to the loss of prestige by the Madras Army of late years in some particulars and in some classes. Amongst these causes might be mentioned the family system, which was a system that undoubtedly made the Sepoy contented and loyal, but was one which no one could say contributed to the efficiency or the mobility of the Army. Another cause to which sufficient attention had not been paid of late years was the classes from which the Army had been recruited. All Military Authorities agreed in thinking that the Madras Sapper was an excellent soldier, who had done good service in many parts of the world, and there was no reason why that corps should not be largely increased. The same might be said of the Madras Pioneers; and other regiments and other races from which those regiments were recruited might be mentioned of which the same things might be said. He wished to allude to the lamented and tragic death of General Sir James Dormer, than whom no more popular Commander-in-Chief ever ruled in India. For more than a year before his death this question of recruiting had been under that officer's consideration. A scheme, he believed, had been drawn up, and was to be found in the Madras Military Department for recruiting soldiers from among the more warlike races in India; and it was to be hoped that General Dormer's policy would be continued by his successor. He wished to say a word respecting the clause in the Bill which deprived the Governor's Council of the services of the General commanding the troops. He regretted that proposal, and he did not understand the Secretary of State to attach much importance to its retention, while he was quite sure that the change was undesirable, and hoped that the Secretary of State would see his way to erase it from the Bill. Every Governor must wish that his Council should be as strong as possible, and would, he should think, deplore the loss of an officer of the rank and ability of the Commander of the Army; and he could conceive a state of things in 1013 which the presence of that, officer in the Council would be eminently useful. In the event of a political disturbance which rendered it necessary that troops should be sent to the scene of disorder, it would be highly desirable that the Military Authority should understand the political or other reasons why the troops were sent. On the whole, he trusted that this Bill would raise the Madras Army to a state of efficiency; and he trusted that no time would be lost in giving to the Government of India an opportunity of carrying the proposed reform into operation. He hoped most sincerely their Lordships would pass the Bill, and that it would be passed in the other House of Parliament without delay; because be was quite sure, if it had not been for the exigencies of modern political life, it would have been passed some time ago.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ Clause 1.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)My Lords, I have some Amendments upon this clause to meet a criticism which has been made as to the wording of the Bill. I find, as I expected, that the present form arose in this way. There is a definition in the Act which says that the Governor shall mean the Governor in Council; but I think it will be better to make it quite clear in the Bill, and these Amendments will leave the matter without the slightest doubt. They are really all verbal in that sense, and all upon the same subject.
Moved in Clause 1, page 1, line l6, after ("exercised") to leave out ("and") and insert ("by those Governors in Council, and shall be exerciseable by the Governor General of India in Council"); in line 18, after ("Governor") to insert ("in Council"), in line 19, after ("India") to insert ("in Council").—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
§ Amendments agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSMy Lords, in Clause 1, page 1, line 22, I have put down an Amendment, after "shall," to insert "not"; but I think the Amendment would be bettor carried out if the word "cease" is left out, and "continue" inserted. I will not take up your Lord- 1014 ships' time further upon it now, because the matter was argued the other day, and I hope the Government will not object to that Amendment.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYPerhaps as this involves, in point of fact, the principle of the next Amendment, the noble Viscount would prefer to take the discussion upon that now.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSI did not think I need state the reasons again. I thought it was clearly understood the other day.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSNo.
Moved, in Clause 1, page 1, line 22, to leave out the word ("cease") and insert ("continue"); and in line 23, after ("respectively") add ("the officers commanding the forces in the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay may be appointed members of council at the said respective Presidencies in the same manner as, and subject to the provisions under which, the Commander-in-Chief in the said Presidencies has hitherto been appointed").—(Viscount Cross.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYMy Lords, the first Amendment, although not in terms, really involves the principle of the second Amendment of the noble Viscount, and the one may be said to hang upon the other. Of course, I fully admit that in this House there is a very strong unanimity of opinion on the part of those noble Lords who have spoken in favour of retention of the Generals commanding the Armies of Madras and Bombay upon the Councils of these Presidencies. But I think hardly sufficient weight was given to the arguments which may be put forward upon the other side; and in reference to what was said just now by the noble Lord who spoke upon going into Committee, and who has himself a wide experience in the working of these matters, I would point out, when he speaks of the action of the Governments of Madras and Bombay in military matters, he must not forget that the very object of this Bill is to preclude those Governments from the management of military affairs. It may, undoubtedly, be the case that occasions will occur upon which the Governments of those Presidencies may have to call in the assistance of the Military Authorities, and in that way military affairs might have to be discussed by those Councils; but the very principle of the Bill is that those powers will cease to be exercised. What 1015 is felt is that there would be a considerable anomaly in the Generals commanding those Forces remaining upon the Councils when the questions upon which they would presumably require to he consulted are removed from the control of the Governments of those Presidencies. And I must also point out that if the system is carried into effect of dividing the Armies of India into four different Divisions, which, without anticipating the final decision, I may say will probably be the case, that is the Army of Bombay as at present constituted, the Army of Madras and the Bengal Army in two Divisions, the actual position of the Commanders of the Bombay and Madras Armies will be of as great importance as that of the Commanders of each of the Divisions of the Bengal Army. Therefore, by their retention, you would have this inconvenient result—that you would have the Commanders of two, not the most important of the four Armies, occupying a higher position than the other Commanders by their being Members of the Councils. There is also the question of salaries, for they would be receiving, of course, higher salaries than would otherwise be allotted to them. That, too, would be a point which would seem likely to give rise to some jealousy, and which might cause a feeling of inequality between the Generals in command of the different Forces. All these are arguments which are worthy of considerable weight being given to them. I would further observe that there is considerable apprehension on the part of those who have taken a different view in this matter to that which appears to be generally held in this House, that the position of Lieutenant Generals in Bombay and Madras might lead to certain friction between those Lieutenant Generals and the Commander-in-Chief, because they would occupy a somewhat anomalous position, as I said before; and that might occasion difficulties which would not otherwise arise. For these reasons, I certainly, upon the whole, prefer the clause as I had drafted it; but, considering the very strong opinion which has been expressed in this House by many of your Lordships, all having experience in this matter, I shall certainly not now trouble the House to divide upon these Amendments; but, at the same time, 1016 I must reserve my liberty of action in the future stages of the Bill.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSI do not think I need detain your Lordships by answering at any length the observations of the noble Earl. I quite understand what were the views expressed the other day when I spoke on this matter; but I still think the balance of convenience is on the side of the Amendments I have proposed. In answer to the noble Earl's suggestion as to inequality in position, I would point out that the Commander-in-Chief will, of course, always be on the Governor General's Council; and, therefore, as far as the two Armies of Bengal are concerned, he will represent those Commanders.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSI hope that will not be done. Then, as regards friction on the part of the Commanders in Bombay and Madras, there can be nothing of that kind, because they are placed under the Commander-in-Chief. The Councils of Madras and Bombay are very small; and I think, therefore, it would be very objectionable to remove these officers, who, I think, will be still of very great use on those Councils.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 2, 3, and 4 agreed to.
§ Schedule.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSMy Lords, with regard to the Schedule, the noble Earl will, I am sure, excuse me if I ask him a question. I have not put down any Amendment in the particulars given here; but they do, I think, require very careful examination. I hope the noble Earl will assure us that they have been carefully examined.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI am able to inform the noble Viscount that they have been most carefully examined. I may say that I have gone through every one of the Acts myself, personally, and I believe I have ascertained that no alteration or Amendment is required in the Schedule. Of course, if there should be any mistake discovered there will be an opportunity of correcting it.
§ THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKPerhaps the noble Earl will state what is the reason why several clauses which 1017 have been recommended by the Governor General of India to be repealed are not included in the Schedule?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI am afraid I cannot answer that question at this moment; but I will endeavour to give an answer to it in the future stages of the Bill. I can only say again that every one of the clauses affecting this matter has been carefully examined, and that I have every reason to believe that every one which requires to be repealed has been included.
§ Schedule agreed to.
§ Bill reported, with Amendments.
§ House resumed.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I do not think this is a Bill which need go to the Standing Committee.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYAre you quite sure?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI would point out to the noble Earl that it is a Bill with a good deal of detail in it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt is only that I think it would be unwise to run any risk, and it will not be looked after in the other House a bit.
§ Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee: and to be printed as amended. (No. 100.)