HL Deb 12 May 1893 vol 12 cc754-8

Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.

Moved, "That the Hill be now read 3a." —(The Viscount Cross.)

THE EARL OF WEMYSS moved that the Bill be read a third time that day six months. His reason for doing so was that, though the Bill contained a really important principle, it had passed through the other House without a word, and, so far, through their Lordships' House almost without a word; but he thought that principle should not go unchallenged. Some discussion took place the other day as to what was the fundamental principle of a Hill which the occupants of the Treasury Bench were going to support in another place, and they had great difficulty in getting at that fundamental principle, though it appeared to most of their Lordships that it was the enunciation of a no rent policy. Here, however, there was no difficulty in getting at the fundamental principle of this Bill before them. It was of the simplest—namely, to transfer the power in these matters from the ratepayers to the Urban Authority. Hitherto, through the whole course of legislation on the question this principle had run: that the ratepayers were to have a voice in setting up Public Libraries. But now it was proposed to take the decision of this question out of their hands, and to place the responsibility upon the Urban Authority, who, it was alleged, would represent the ratepayers. And this was done at a time when books were so cheap. Scott's novels could be now bought for 3d. Thackeray's, Kingsley's, Dickens', and Lytton's for 4½d.; and Shakespeare's plays for 1d. each. That was the cost of literature at the present time; but Parliament had thought it right that these Public Libraries should be promoted at the expense of the poor ratepayers, and that suitable buildings for that purpose should be erected for, as it was supposed, the recreation of the mass of the people. The attendance in these libraries was only 1 per cent. of the population of the towns where they were established; and as to the class frequenting them to a large extent, the Librarian at Birmingham said that— No considerations of delicacy seemed to deter the poor tramp from using not only the news-room, but the seats in the Reference Library; the building is also used for betting purposes and by travelling bagmen, who discussed their bargains and showed their samples there. As regarded cost again, at Newcastle £23,000 debt had been incurred, and the expenditure was £5,000 a year. Clearly, therefore, they weighed heavily on the ratepayers. It was urged that the present process of obtaining the ratepayers' votes was cumbrous and costly. No doubt, it was not so simple as the fiat of a Municipal Authority, which simply said—"Let there be a library," and the library was there. As to the representation argument, that might apply, perhaps, after the next election, and meanwhile the Urban Authorities would be able to establish libraries wherever they pleased. There were many towns in which the ratepayers had decided, in some cases by large majorities, that no Public Library should be erected—among others, Marylebone, West Cowes, Gloucester, Taunton, Weymouth, Paddington, and Islington. If the Bill became law, it would be possible for the Urban Authority to decide in favour of the erection of a Public Library when the majority of the ratepayers were opposed to it and had no power to interfere. He thought a tendency prevailed to throw too much power into the hands of Municipal Bodies. He opposed the Bill in the interests of the ratepayers. All he wanted was that, as heretofore, the ratepayers should have a voice in the expenditure of their own money in this provision of a luxury at the best for literary men. He hoped the ratepayers would rise and protest against the burden it was sought to impose upon them. They were told it was only a matter of a penny, but these pennies were rapidly accumulating, and were becoming the last straws on the back of that patient beast of burden—the ratepayer. A time might come when that poor over-burdened beast would put out his fore-feet firmly, refuse to travel one inch further on this weary rating road along which he was being driven, and throw off entirely the load sought to be placed upon him. If we did not take care, we should become in this country one of the most State and Municipality-ridden people in existence.

Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day six months").—(The Earl of Wemyss.)

VISCOUNT CROSS

I am sorry to see the noble Earl revelling and glorying in the number of places which have refused to adopt the Public Libraries Act. I think that, quite apart from this Bill, it is agreed by everyone that the establishment of Public Libraries where they are wanted is a good and useful thing. The noble Earl would have known, if he had had any wide experience of Public Libraries, that not only literary persons attend them, but working men in large numbers, and that these men highly appreciate the advantages afforded by them. It is too late to raise the question whether there should be Public Libraries or not; that has been settled, and it is admitted on all bands that the libraries are most useful institutions, and are of great benefit to the working classes, who in their workday clothes attend them regularly and derive great enjoyment from reading——

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

Novels.

VISCOUNT CROSS

The noble Earl will hardly deny that these libraries are admitted to be of great public benefit. The number of people who go to them is much greater in proportion to the population than the noble Earl thinks. The noble Earl objects to the Bill because it proposes to take the power of deciding on the erection of a library from the ratepayers directly, and to place it on the ratepayers' representatives. The present mode of starting a Public Library is very cumbrous and expensive. The Bill will effect an improvement in these respects; and if the representatives of the ratepayers are not to be trusted in such a matter as this, they are not to be trusted at all. The names of men of all Parties are on the back of the Bill, and your Lordships will, I am sure, agree that it ought to be passed for the benefit of the people. I think hardly ever has a Bill been brought in with such general consent, and I hope your Lordships will now give it a Third Reading.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

asked the noble Viscount whether he would have any objection to insert a proviso to the effect that the Bill should not come into operation until after the next election of the Urban Authorities?

VISCOUNT CROSS

I should have the very strongest objection to putting that in. The ratepayers have chosen their representatives, and surely they can be trusted in such a matter as this.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

Not at the present moment.

VISCOUNT CROSS

I may remind the noble Lord that it was laid down by the Lord Chancellor three or four days ago that it is extremely inconvenient and unusual on the Third Reading of Bills to propose Amendments notice of which have not been given.

On Question, whether ("now ") stand part of the Motion? Resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments; a further Amendment made.

Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.