COMMITTEE.

HL Deb 05 May 1893 vol 12 cc169-76

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Lord Acton.)

*THE EARL OF BELMORE, before the House went into Committee, asked the noble Lord to explain the object of the Bill, which had rather a peculiar history. It was read a first time on March 21 and a second time on March 24, without explanation or discussion, and very little was known in Ireland about the measure; but, from various communications received by himself and other noble Lords, it appeared that it was a Bill of a very contentious character. He held in his hand numerous representations from different interests on the subject—resolutions passed against it by the Laud Agents' Association of Ireland, by the Committee of the Northern Law Society of Ireland, a statement on behalf of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, and other important bodies, a resolution from the Chambers of Commerce in Dublin and Belfast, and also from the Council of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland; and, in addition to the Irish objections, a resolution of a meeting of the Trade Protection Societies' Association which had been held in London. All those bodies earnestly protested against the Bill. The Amendments he had put on the Paper related to the resolution passed by the Land Agents' Association, which stated that official liquidators were hitherto unknown in Ireland; and they believed that, the creation of such an office, with powers not hitherto conferred on any officials in the United Kingdom, would cause difficulty and confusion in the management of lauded estates. Under it the management of estates would pass from the hands of experienced agents to officials who had not hitherto had to deal with landed property, and whose duties in connection with the Bankruptcy Court rendered them particularly unsuited for the management of estates. They represented that the duties which these officers would have to discharge would require their constant attendance in Dublin, and therefore that their personal management of the estates would be impossible. He did not know what was the reason for introducing this Bill, but there might be a very good reason for it; and he understood it, was intended to assimilate the law and practice in Ireland to the law and practice which had prevailed in England. It was evident, from the sweeping changes proposed, that the Bill was one of a very contentious nature, and he hoped the noble Lord would be able to admit the Amendments, which would, to a great extent, remove the main objections to it.

VISCOUNT MIDLETON

entirely concurred in the observations which had been made by his noble Friend. Similar representations had reached him from the same quarters, and he thought the objections taken to the Bill were, in substance, just. It was perfectly true that the object of the Bill was to assimilate the law in Ireland in the ease of bankruptcy and official receivership to that which had prevailed in England during the last few years. But it should be remembered that there had been considerable legislation with regard to Ireland which did not concern England, and that legislation had made it all the more necessary that persons entrusted with the duties contemplated by the Bill should have personal knowledge of everyone— and especially with the circumstances of the tenants—with whom they were brought in contact. Official liquidators could not have such knowledge, and, therefore, it would be impossible for them properly to manage Irish estates. In his judgment they were about the most unfit persons who could possibly be selected for such a purpose. The Bill also trenched unfairly on the work hitherto done efficiently by accountants, solicitors, and land agents. Officials of the Court of Chancery residing in Dublin or other large towns would be utterly incompetent to deal with the complicated questions which must arise throughout Ireland under this Bill; and he, therefore, hoped the noble Lord would either withdraw the Bill altogether, or remove the objections to it by admitting the Amendments.

LORD ACTON

said, this Bill was introduced originally at the instance of the Irish Bench as far as they were interested in the matter, and he was not aware that there was any objection to it, or that it was in any way a contentious Bill. That was one reason why he gave no explanation of it on the Second Reading, and he might add that he was not very anxious to address Irish Peers on a question which they would probably understand much better than himself, or to discuss a measure of this description in the presence of so many Judges. The Bill was of a purely legal character, proposing to extend to Ireland analogous securities to those given by the Companies Winding-up Acts in England. Before going further, he would accept the Amendments alluded to standing in the names of the noble Earl (Lord Bel-more) and the noble Marquess (Lord Waterford). The 1st clause of the Bill proposed to place at the disposal of the High Court in Ireland the services of officials already attached to the judicial system as official liquidators of public companies. This was following the principle adopted in England, which had been considered extremely successful. The clause was, however, entirely permissive, leaving the option of appointing to the Court, whose power was not fettered in regard to the appointment of a commercial liquidator in cases free from suspicion. Clause 2 contained no new principle, and only extended the powers of the Court in the choice of liquidators. The desirability of giving the Court that power had been fully recognised by the Law Officers of two successive Administrations as well as by the Judges. Clause 3 placed at the disposal of the Court the services of the same officials for the purpose of safeguarding property in pawn belonging to litigants. Clause 4 introduced the only new principle in the Bill: that of enabling the Court to call in the aid of the official liquidators ill the administration of estates of insolvent or deceased persons. It was believed that the adoption of the principle here proposed would result in the protection of property which in many cases at present was either made away with, or not distributed according to law. Clause 5 referred to the application of the law in lunacy matters under the direction of the Lord Chancellor. The Amendments proposed by both the noble Lords would be accepted by the Government, and he, therefore, hoped their Lordships would not at thin stage resist the further progress of the Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, the Bill had passed very quickly through its previous stages, and had not, so far, attracted much notice in their Lordships' House. He was glad that the noble Lord had now given some explanation of it, but he could not agree that Clause 1 was permissive, as the noble Lord had said, and was glad the Amendment to make it so would be accepted. The Bill had caused great excitement in Ireland among officials and others, especially solicitors and chartered accountants, who feared that under its provisions they would be compulsorily forced to give up duties which, it was generally admitted, they had satisfactorily performed hitherto. It would be rather an extraordinary thing to say that an official of the Court sitting in Dublin should have the power of managing estates throughout the country. The noble Lord had intimated that the 1st clause was permissive, but the clause ran— The official assignees of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland, hereinafter called the 'official assignees' shall, by virtue of their office, be the official liquidators," &c. The bankruptcy assignees, of course, managed bankruptcy affairs with rapidity, but it would be a most serious thing if they forced on sales of landed property. Land in Ireland was at present almost unsaleable, and if sales were forced it would be sold at a nominal value, or for almost nothing at all. This Bill was bad altogether, but he did not propose at the present stage to move its rejection. He was glad to hear that the noble Lord would be ready to receive the Amendments that were put down, because, as it at present stood, the Bill would cause much friction and great dissatisfaction. He had received communications from Ireland showing that the Bill was regarded with much disfavour; and he would suggest that, the Amendments submitted having been accepted, some time should elapse before the Report stage was taken, in order that the matter might be further considered.

*LORD ASHBOURNE

My Lords, all that public opinion in Ireland has before it in reference to this Bill is the copy which has been circulated without any change or amendment. The opposition to it is growing in volume and intensity; and instead of being a measure which was to be allowed to pass quietly by consent, it is quite plain to me that, in its present shape, unless the objections to it are met in a conciliatory spirit, it will, In its subsequent stages, be one of the most keenly-fought Bills which your Lordships have had introduced during the present Session. To indicate the class of opposition which has developed, I may tell your Lordships that I have received representations from the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland, the Chambers of Commerce of Dublin and Belfast, and other bodies, against the Bill, and it is manifest from the amount of literature that has been issued there is a good deal of opposition to the measure. I believe the history of the Bill is that a suggestion was made that it would be a reasonable, and not an unwise, thing to give power to the Courts in these matters whenever they thought it desirable to appoint the official liquidators to perform certain functions. I believe that is the view of the Lord Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, the Vice Chancellor, and the Judge of the Laud Court. I do not know that they think it is a Bill of any supreme importance; but I believe their view is that it would be a useful and wise thing to give the Courts such a discretion as I have indicated. Now I have gathered what I was before aware of, that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is willing to make it, instead of compulsory, purely voluntary, leaving it in the discretion of the Judges to make the appointments if they think right; and also to make it plain that the official assignees are to have no power to act as land agents and receivers. There is also, I believe, a desire to show that these officials are not to interfere with the creditors in the selection of a solicitor. These are important changes, but they are not known of in Ireland; and I think it would be wise if there is any such machinery in your Lordships' House to commit the Bill now pro formâ, let the noble Lord in charge of it introduce such Amendments as he thinks right and such others as the draftsman may think necessary, and then circulate a new print of the Bill. Let that go forth in Ireland, let the parties interested have the opportunity of considering whether their objections have been met, and then, at the end of two or three weeks, we shall be in a better position to know whether the further progress of the Bill will be easy. That course, I know, is taken in the House of Commons with great advantage. The only other course would be to defer the Committee stage for some time, and allow those interested in Ireland to consider the proposed changes. But it is quite manifest to me that the Bill, in face of the growing volume of opposition to it, will not pass unless a very earnest effort is made to meet as far as may be reasonable some of the various objections which have been taken to the measure in its present shape.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)

My Lords, I quite agree that there is some weight in the objections taken to the Bill. At the same time, as regards the 1st and 2nd clauses, I think your Lordships should not be too closely guided by the expressions of opinion which have been given. It was owing to the experience in this country of the incidents attending the winding up of companies that provision was made for greater supervision, and for insuring that there should be proper investigation into the transactions which have led to the failure of companies. No doubt some exception has been taken in England to the measure as leading to officialism. I have said before that I have considerable sympathy with the objections of those who are opposed to appointing officials to do that which in the ordinary course has been done by professional persons not officials connected with any Government. But, on the other hand, in these company cases there is work to be done which will be more efficiently performed by having official persons to look into the transactions; and it was on that ground that the late Government introduced their proposals relating to the winding up of companies. The first two clauses of this Bill contain the same proposals with reference to Ireland. I do not think there is any good ground for objecting to this part of the Bill, but I admit that the subsequent provisions may be open to criticism. I would, therefore, suggest that Amendments as to which there is agreement should be inserted in the Bill now, and that contentious points should be passed over and considered by the Standing Committee. Before the Bill reaches the Standing Committee there will be an interval, during which it can be circulated through Ireland, and to allow for its consideration.

VISCOUNT DE VESCI

had not heard very clearly the remarks of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, and had not, therefore, clearly understood whether the noble Lord would accept his Amendments to exempt agricultural estates from its operation so far as it related to the appointment of official assignees as receivers of rents and estates in the hands of the Court. If they were to be accepted and the measure then further considered on the Report stage, he was willing to withdraw those Amendments at this stage, and bring them forward at a later period, dependent, of course, upon whether the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would vary the terms of the clause.

LORD ACTON

thought that all the difficulties raised upon details by the noble Lord were met by the Amendments already standing in the names of noble Lords which had been already in principle accepted.

VISCOUNT DE VESCI

understood that it would be open to him at a future stage to make further Amendments if necessary.

LORD ACTON

assented.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I think, whether they are great interests or not which are involved, it is clearly desirable that we should know whether these Amendments are agreed to by consent before we go to the Committee stage.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)

The Amendments are accepted; when they have been inserted the Bill will be reprinted; and then it will go in due time to the Standing Committee, leaving a long interval in order that it may be fully considered. There will be an ample interval left for those who take an interest in it in Ireland to consider it. It seems to me that is the simpler mode of proceeding.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It is a matter rather for the consideration of the Irish Peers, but it seems to me that when the Government have by their action entirely altered the draft of the Bill in its important particulars it is desirable the House should know what the Bill really means before it gets to the Committee stage again.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I do not understand that it is by our action. It is by the action of noble Lords opposite who move the Amendments they think necessary. The Amendments are theirs; and when they are put in the Bill will be reprinted, and everybody will have the opportunity of considering it. It cannot prejudice anybody, I should think.

VISCOUNT DE VESCI

withdrew his Amendments for that day, and would keep them for a future stage. He understood that some of the Amendments were agreed to.

Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.

Amendments made.

Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 87.)