SECOND READING. (Hansard, 21 March 1893)

LORD BALFOUR
said, that this Bill proposed to amend the law regarding 623 Reformatory Schools in Scotland in one very small point. Under the existing law, which was passed in 1866, it was not possible to send any youthful offender to a reformatory, unless the offender had undergone some term of imprisonment. The result was to cause juvenile offenders, who would not otherwise be sent to prison, and some of them were little more than children, to be sentenced, in order to qualify them for a reformatory. But the stigma of imprisonment was one which clung to a child for years, and it was quite unfair to them in many cases; all that the Bill proposed to do was to make it optional with the magistrate before whom the youthful offender was brought to say whether or not he should, in the first instance, be sent to prison before he was sent to a reformatory. This alteration was almost universally wanted in Scotland, and representations had been made to himself that the Bill should be passed without delay. There was this additional argument, that while the Industrial School to which these children might be sent were full sometimes to overflowing, the Reformatories close by were standing practically empty. It seemed that, after the nearly 30 years' experience we have now had in the operation of the law, this discretion might now be safely given to the magistrates an the full belief that it would be wisely exercised. The Bill had been passed unanimously through all its stages in the other House, and he begged to move that it be now read by their Lordships a second time.

LORD VERNON
said, that the Bill had passed through the House of Commons with the full approval of the Home Office, and if the noble Lord would postpone the Committee stage of the Bill until after the Recess he had no doubt they would pass it in a slightly amended form, because the Amendment which the Home Office proposed would not interfere in any way with the main object of the Bill. It was simply a question, as he understood, whether it would be necessary to have two Justices on the Bench on these occasions, or whether one should be allowed to sentence a youthful offender to the reformatory. But that was a matter which would be dealt with 624 later. The object of the Bill was to enable a Judicial Court to send a youthful offender to a reformatory without making it obligatory that such an offender should qualify for a reformatory in a prison. He had no idea till he studied this Bill, and he did not suppose that many of their Lordships were aware, that children had to go through a preparation of cram in prison before being allowed to enter a reformatory school. Sydney Smith, speaking of prisons, called them large public schools, maintained at the expense of counties for the encouragement of profligacy and crime, and for providing a proper succession of housebreakers, profligates, and thieves—schools conducted with the smallest degree of partiality or favour. Any man, however mean his birth or obscure his situation, could easily secure admission to them. The moment any young person evinced the slightest propensity for these pursuits he was provided with food, clothing, and lodging, and put to his studies under the most accomplished thieves and cut-throats the county could supply. Instead of prisons being called public schools, they might more appropriately be termed preparatory schools for reformatories, as evidently it was thought not only wise, but necessary, to teach children possessing evil propensities to be thoroughly bad before endeavouring to improve their moral condition. It was the principle that they must be worse before they were better, or even before any endeavour was made to make them better. Noble Lords would wonder why the operations of this Bill were confined to Scotland only. This was because there might have been opposition to the Bill if it had been extended to England from, he imagined, what had been termed the fat and sleek and well-as-we-are people. In Scotland, however, the opinion of both magistrates and managers of schools was almost unanimous, and the Government were only paying regard to the voice of the people, who had knowledge forced on them by experience without long deductions or deep research. It had been forced on them in a most practical way. Some girls' reformatories were almost empty in Scotland because the magistrates would not impose the imprisonment which was the necessary preliminary to committal to the schools. The Home Office did not wish to imperil the Bill by 625 trying to extend its provisions to England; it was, therefore, confined to Scotland to ensure it becoming law as soon as possible. With regard to the imprisonment of children generally, Lieutenant Colonel Inglis, the Inspector, said that in his opinion it would soon be in this country, as in many others, a thing of the past to imprison children at all; and the sooner they took this step in the right direction and erased from the Act the words which insisted on preliminary imprisonment as a qualification for a reformatory the better. When the Bill arrived at the Committee stage one or two Amendments might be moved which were now under consideration, but, as he had said, they would not affect the main object of the Bill. Perhaps the noble Lord would postpone the Committee stage of the Bill until after Easter.

LORD BALFOUR
at once acquiesced, and named Friday, 21st April. If a few days' further postponement were required perhaps the noble Lord would give him notice. He would ask the Home Office in the meantime to reconsider the point as to whether the presence of two magistrates upon occasions to which the Bill referred should be necessary, or whether a single magistrate should have jurisdiction. He hoped they would consult the Law Officers of the Crown. In many cases stipendiary magistrates and sheriffs, or sheriffs' substitutes, as Justices, sat on the Bench with satisfaction and general approval; but if the Home Office insisted upon having two Justices one of them would have to be brought in for that purpose alone, probably not accustomed to sitting on the Bench. He did not think adding a Judge in that way would strengthen the Court, and hoped the Home Office would consider the point carefully.

LORD VERNON
said, they had been consulting the Lord Advocate. That was the difficulty, and no doubt all those matters would be taken into consideration.