Lords Sitting of 14 March 1893

SAT FIRST.
The Earl Beauchamp,—after the death of his father.
The Lord Lovel and Holland (E. Egmont)—Took the Oath.

SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD SANDFORD: I beg to ask the Lord President whether, in view of the proceedings at the inquiry recently held by one of Her Majesty's Inspectors into the school supply of Farnham, he will state (1) for how many children the Education Department requires school accommodation to be provided in a parish with a population of 12,000; and (2) on what basis this accommodation in schools which have hitherto been in receipt of annual grants is now calcu-
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  lated? He reminded the House that a short conversation had taken place there on the 10th February upon a question put by Lord Norton to the Lord President with respect to a Circular issued by the Education Department, which had caused apprehension and alarm among managers of voluntary schools. In that feeling he shared, and still more strongly now than at that date, because, though in answer to the question the Lord President's statement that it was merely a circular of inquiry went at first sight to diminish the apprehensions of Voluntary School managers and teachers, yet on the very next day reason was given why it should not be regarded in that light. For on the following day appeared a long and detailed report of a meeting of the National Education Association which had been held in London on the 3rd February. He had not previously heard of the Association, and at first supposed it was one of the societies, congresses, or bodies which in the last 20 years had from time to time sprung up to attack the National system of education prevail-

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  ing in the country for three-fifths of the children in our schools, and based upon voluntary effort and definite religions instruction. Among the members, not merely of the Association but of its Executive, he found belonging to the present Government two Cabinet Ministers, four Under-Secretaries of State, two Parliamentary Secretaries, two Junior Lords of the Treasury; and of the last Liberal Government, one Cabinet Minister, three Under-Secretaries, one Junior Lord of the Treasury, and the Solicitor-General— in all 17 Members of the present and past Liberal Administrations, not including the Vice-President of the Council, who had very properly, on succeeding to office, left his place on the Executive of the Association. Seeing the constitution of its Governing Body, he read the speeches delivered at the meeting. Mr. Lyulph Stanley, whose knowledge of and interest in educational matters was so well known, was in the chair. The main object of the meeting was to express the regret of the Association at losing the services of Mr. Acland, and to congratulate him upon his entrance into the Government with a batch of new administrative laws in his portfolio. The second subject was a laudation of this Circular No. 321, which their Lordships had been told was merely a Circular of inquiry. Referring to this Circular issued by the Department, it was stated at the meeting by the Chairman that it was of the greatest importance and would probably within the present year produce immense results, requiring the Inspectors, as it did—
  "To report faithfully upon the real structure and real accommodation of the schools"—
  as if they had not done so in the past; and further, that—
  "The absolutely inadequate amount of 8 square feet per child had been employed to enable all sorts of unsuitable and insanitary buildings to be used year after year by representing that they possessed a far larger amount of accommodation than they were absolutely fit-to furnish."
  That was hardly language which would be used in reference to a mere circular of inquiry. Then came a detailed statement of bad cases of neglect on the part of the Education Department which called for inquiry in enforcing the provisions for sufficient accommodation. Among those bad cases was Farnham,
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  and the spirit by which the Association was actuated was shown by the statement that at Farnham the Bishop and the Nonconformists were always embracing. Evidently Mr. Stanley and the Association were not of opinion that this was a mere circular of inquiry. Many parents held that secular instruction without religious education did not deserve the name of education at all, but this did not apply to schools throughout the country in which the 3,000,000 out of the 5,000,000 children were receiving it, though a mere fraction of their parents' definite religious instruction. Inquiry was called for on the part of the Department into the school provision at Farnham, and the Association not only called for inquiry, but were kind enough in the report of the Executive to lay down instructions as to how the Inspectors were to conduct it. They said:—
  "The Inspector, in reporting upon the supply of their districts, should be instructed to disregard the inadequate basis on which the Voluntary Schools are measured, and to calculate all the Voluntary Schools by their seat supply, in accordance with Regulation 72."
  In other words, the obnoxious Circular 321. The meeting of this Association, which comprised 17 members of the Liberal Administration, having been held on the 3rd February, and the report of its proceedings issued on the 11th, the inquiry, presumably under the instructions of the Association, came off in the week 20th to 26th February, so that the Department was not long in acting upon the instructions of the Association, which, in fact, looking at its constitution, might be called in these days of co-operation a joint or auxiliary department. The Inspector came down; it was agreed to take the population of Farnham at 12,000; and he laid down the law that for that population school places to the extent of one-fifth, that was 2,400, ought to be provided. The existing school places he took at 1,943, showing a deficiency of 457. But he went on to disallow a corrugated-iron room at St. Thomas's, which held a certain number of children and five class rooms in the National and the British Schools, on the ground that they were below the minimum size prescribed by Circular 321. That added 205 places to his previous requirement, making 650. Testing that

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  by the previous requirements of the Department, the report for 1891–92 issued just before the late Government went out of office, stated that to meet the wants of the children for whom schools are provided, and who constitute one-fifth of the total population, the number of school places provided ought to be one-sixth. That was not a new rule, but had been repeated in Reports year by year, and the Department had dwelt upon the great advance made in Elementary Education under it. He, therefore, desired to know how it came about and under what authority one-fifth was to be substituted for one-sixth. This was a very serious matter for a place like Farnham with a population of 12,000, whore the Inspector admitted there were 1,943 seats according to the present rules, and where a voluntary effort might easily be made to supply the deficiency of 57 and make up the number of 2,000. The Inspector had not taken into account the fact that there were at the time 453 vacant places. This was a matter affecting the whole country, and would mean that 6,000,000 school places must be provided, instead of 5,000,000 as at present. Accepting for the moment for the Voluntary Schools the measurement of 10 feet, instead of 8 feet, accommodation existed for 5,200,000 children, and 1,000,000 seats were already vacant, which with the 1,000,000 to be added under the one-fifth rule would give an excess of 2,000,000 seats. Mr. Stanley was very fond of talking about the unsuitable and insanitary conditions attending the 8 square feet measurement, but the Prussian rule was only 6½ foot, and the Prussian soldiers who had marched so rapidly over France were neither weakly nor without education. Another astonishing point to which Mr. Stanley referred in his speech was that Mr. Acland had laid it down that he would not consider there was a free school place available for a child if the number on the roll of the school in question was equal to the accommodation of the school. Therefore, notwithstanding, there were always 20 places vacant out of 100, no child could claim admittance if 100 scholars were on the roll. It was easy to see what dishonest uses might be made of that rule, by retaining
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  names on the books of the school, as had been done in the case of a London school where the master had declined to receive a dirty boy. He thought, therefore, he was entitled to ask for definite replies to his questions. Places like Farnham or Cheltenham were not like the densely-crowded districts of London or Manchester. The circumstances and population of Farnham wore quite normal, and the one-sixth rule would very properly apply to it.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONdesired, on behalf of the neighbourhood immediately adjoining Farnham, to express his gratitude to the noble Lord for the interest he had taken in this question. The population of Farnham had doubled within his own recollection, and a very keen interest was felt just now in the educational requirements of the district. Public meetings had been held in order to put the case before the inhabitants as fully and fairly as possible, and it was the general feeling that but scant attention had been paid to those requirements by the Department. He hoped that some arrangement would be arrived at which would not conflict with the interests of an improving town. At present a feeling existed there that what had taken place hitherto had been dictated by the somewhat peculiar educational views which the Vice-President of the Council was known to entertain.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (the Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, I must begin by saying that I think nothing could be more reasonable and fair than what the noble Viscount has said, and I am certain it is the wish of the Department to take fully into consideration the desires of Farnham. I believe it is perfectly true, that it is wished in Farnham the schools should be put on a satisfactory footing, and every attention will be paid to the matter by the Department. The noble Lord who has asked the question seems to be animated by a strong desire to prevent the schools from being made thoroughly efficient. I cannot construe what he has said to-night and on a former occasion in any other way. He has attacked in strong language, without notice to me, the Circular which has been issued, which he called the "ob-

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  noxious Circular," and I have no doubt it is obnoxious to the noble Lord. The meaning of that Circular is to obtain for the Department correct information on which can be founded fair and reasonable action for bringing up to a satisfactory state schools deficient in accommodation or sanitary arrangements, and that is what I understand makes the noble Lord indignant against it. For my own part I strongly hope that the result will be to bring a variety of schools into a better condition; and any one who has the well-being of education at heart will not sympathise, I am sure, with the extreme fear of the noble Lord in regard to some expense being thrown upon those connected with schools, which are, to a large extent, supported out of the public purse, in order to put them in the condition they ought to be in. I am aware that there was a considerable number of schools which were formerly reported as in a fairly satisfactory state. But is the country to stand still for over in this matter? Is no advance to be made in the condition of the schools? Such a position would be absolutely intolerable. It would be unreasonable, of course, to suddenly require all the schools throughout the country to come up to the standard which the Department thinks a proper one; but the noble Lord must be prepared for a considerable number of cases occurring in which it is absolutely necessary that the schools should be brought to a higher standard. With regard to Farnham, the Bishop of Winchester by no means disapproved of this investigation being made. In ordinary cases the Department is satisfied with provision for one-sixth of the total population, but in the case of Farnham, where there was a population of 12,240, there are actually 2,187 children (considerably more than one-sixth) on the books of public elementary schools, and all the representatives of the locality whom the Inspector mot thought that it would be reasonable to require 2,400 places. The accommodation in the existing schools is estimated on the basis laid down in the Code, which is that of eight square feet per child, in all the schools in Farnham; but about 200 places are not reckoned, as being either in class-rooms too small to be healthy or in a corrugated iron schoolroom only temporarily recognised. If any mistake or error has been
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  made in the inquiry which has taken place I am perfectly confident that the matter will be fairly considered. I will not give the noble Lord so little credit for zeal in the interests of education as to suppose he has come to the conclusion that it is not necessary children should be taught in places not properly adapted for their health, or that he does not consider it right, when the matter has been investigated, that the school should be brought up to the proper standard. That is all I have to say in the matter. I have not seen the report of the Association, and I am quite ignorant of the proceedings he has referred to. I have the greatest possible respect for Mr. Lyulph Stanley's zeal and ability in educational matters, but he is perfectly at liberty to express his opinions on the subject, though I may not feel bound to accept those opinions. I have had the honour to be a member of that Association, but I do not know that we ought to be guided in the Department by what passes in bodies which are not responsible, beyond this, that when opinions are expressed by gentlemen who take great interest in these matters attention should undoubtedly be given to what they desire. More than that I do not wish to say.
  LORD SANDFORDsaid on the question of an iron schoolroom being healthy, such structures had for five years been recognised as schools; and he would like to know whether the managers of the iron school had been warned that its fate was sealed; otherwise no time had been given to replace it by voluntary effort.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The noble Lord must really excuse me. I cannot answer that question without notice.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid that if the noble Lord were to manage his own Department all would be well, but the Managers of Voluntary Schools were naturally suspicious of the Vice President of the Council, Mr. Acland, who was a deserter from the Church of England, of which he had been a clergyman, and who, therefore, was the last person who ought to have been appointed to that post. Though the Lord President said he was not under the influence of the gentleman mentioned

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  (Mr. Lyulph Stanley), he rather thought Mr. Acland was under that influence.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid in reference to the requirements of the Department, the sanitary considerations should certainly not be ignored in schools and class-rooms. A larger number of the latter, separately, were called for, in which the multifarious branches of knowledge now taught in so-called elementary schools could be imparted. He agreed entirely with the Lord President in thinking that legislation in connection with educational matters should not stand still, and he was pleased to observe that the Department over which the noble Earl presided continued to exercise more and more common sense in its requirements. Children were very properly no longer required to make perfectly uniform progress in each of the three R's. Nothing could be more absurd or unpractical than to expect them to do so year by year. Still he considered that rather more flexibility in the architectural requirements would often be an advantage as regards convenience, economy, and beauty. But it was gratifying to see the great improvement which had been made in the administration of the Department during the last two years.

THE EDUCATION CODE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD NORTONasked the President of the Council how many days the Education Code had already been laid on the Table without being printed and circulated; and what information would be given of rules to be laid down as to the qualification to be required for teachers of drawing in elementary schools. He said the new Education Code (which was issued every year), had lain on the Table for some days without their Lordships knowing anything about it. Every successive Vice President of the Council sought to immortalise himself by attaching his name to a new edition of the Code. This process of legislation by incubation, as it might be called, was very dangerous, even in trifling matters, but National Education was a most important subject, and in actual cost, including voluntary contributions, involving an expenditure of £10,000,000
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  annually, and it should not be left to Departmental treatment merely lying on the Table in dummy for 40 days. Parliament should not legislate in the dark on such a subject. Some of their Lordships, if they knew what the document was, might not wholly approve of it, or might wish to move it off the Table altogether. It was not only the Education Department in Whitehall which laid such eggs on the Table to hatch, but these rules and instructions relative to National Education collected together from no less than five different Departments of the State. In reference to drawing, they came from South Kensington. He was led to bring this matter before the House by a letter from a school manager in the Midlands asking him to get certain alterations made in the rules referring to drawing. He could not ascertain what was meant, as no paper on the subject was before the House. The Code itself did not comprise the whole subject by any means, for there were auxiliary regulations emanating from other Departments which did not appear in it at all. He begged now to be informed where to find the rules and regulations relating to drawing in Elementary Schools, and to the qualifications required for the teachers.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I must say I agree with the noble Lord that it is not a convenient practice that the Code should be laid before Parliament and not distributed as soon as possible, for the reasons he has given. The Code was laid on the Table on the 27th of February. I will make further inquiry to see whether the distribution can be accelerated. It is intended to give an opportunity for discussion. No technical qualification is at present required for teachers of drawing in elementary schools. No change has been made in the new Code in this respect.

SCHOOL OF COOKERY AT ALDERSHOT

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF STRAFFORDasked the Under Secretary of State for War where the instructors at the Aldershot School of Cookery received their instruction. He hoped the noble Lord, the Under Secretary of State for War, would be able to answer the question in as

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  satisfactory a manner as that put upon the subject a week ago.
  LORD SANDHURST: The sergeant and an assistant, that is, another noncommissioned officer, passed through a course of Cookery at the National School of Cookery with very satisfactory results, and the War Office Authorities have every reason to be gratified at the courtesy shown them by the Executive of that body.

THE EVICTED TENANTS COMMISSION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ARRANasked Her Majesty's Government when the Report of the Evicted Tenants Commission would be laid on the Table of the House; and whether the statements on which the Report was founded would be laid on the Table at the same time. He said no doubt the report of the Commission would take some time to draw up, but there was no reason why the evidence, which was completed early in January, had not been produced after the Commission ceased to sit, and sufficient time had elapsed for correction.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Earl SPENCER): My Lords, the Report of the Commission, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, was laid on the Table on the 9th inst. It is understood that the printers forwarded from Dublin last night copies of the Report, and their distribution will follow in the ordinary course. The second volume, containing the evidence, will not be ready for distribution for at least a week. This matter, however, did not depend on the Government or the Commission, but on the arrangements made at the Stationery Office.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.