Lords Sitting of 2 March 1893

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
SAT FIRST.
The Lord Teynham, after the death of his father.
TRADE UNION PROVIDENT FUNDS BILL.—(No. 21.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is a measure of a very simple character. It has been passed by the other House, and approved there by the Government. Its object is simply to protect the funds of certain Trade and Provident Societies, so that they shall stand in practically the same position as the funds of Trade Societies which are now exempt from Income Tax, so that the interest on funds, which are used mostly for providing old-age pensions, and altogether for provident purposes by way of superannuation and otherwise, shall be exempt in future from Income Tax. That is the whole scope and object of the Bill, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Herschell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

PUBLIC AUTHORITIES PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]—(No. 6.)
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
AUTHORISED COMPANIES LIQUOR BILL [H.L.]

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE BISHOP OF CHESTER,in presenting a Bill for establishing a system of retail sale of intoxicating liquor by an authorised company, said it had been
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  thought desirable he should make a somewhat fuller statement than was usual—first, of the background of evidence and reason upon which the Bill rested; and, secondly, of its provisions. The Bill might best be regarded as an attempt to carry out the first recommendation of the Special Committee of that House which sat in 1878 and reported in 1879 upon the subject of intemperance. That recommendation was that legal facilities should be given for the local adoption of the Gothenburg and Mr. Chamberlain's schemes, or of some modification of those schemes. He would remind their Lordships of the composition of that Committee. The Duke of Westminster was the Chairman, and on the very rare occasions when he was not present his place was taken by Lord Aberdare, whose hand was also manifest in the drafting of the Report, and certainly in that part of it which dealt with the subject-matter under consideration. He was privileged to say that both noble Lords were among the leading authors of the Bill which he had the honour to present. The time which had elapsed between their first essays in this matter and the production of the present Bill exactly corresponded with that which elapsed between Sir W. Scott's first essay in romantic composition in prose and the publication of Waverley. Their Lordships would, he was sure, hail that as an omen. On that Committee were also Lords Morley, Kimberley, and Onslow, and the present Bishop of London, then Bishop of Exeter, the late Archbishops Tait, Thomson, and Magee, and the late Bishop of Carlisle. The Committee was eminently a strong one. It had the advantage of the best evidence available, and amongst others Mr. Chamberlain, then fresh from the study of the Gothenburg system in Sweden, and with a united and resolute Birmingham at his back, gave evidence. Birmingham at that time had resolved to adopt the system of municipal licensing in the Town Council by a majority of 46 against 10, and by the Board of Guardians unanimously. There were thus 120 gentlemen, representing 400,000 people, determined to carry out this system should legal facilities be given. He would pause for a moment to dwell upon the melancholy subject of lost opportunities in temperance reform in connection with

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  the Report of the Lords' Committee of 1879. Had Mr. Bruce's Bill of 1871 been carried, it was calculated that instead of our having 128,000 public-houses, we should now have less than 40,000; and had Birmingham received the legal facilities which it desired for making an experiment in municipal licensing and municipal socialism, it would have disposed of the whole temperance problem. The need was now as sore as ever. Intemperance and its offspring—pauperism, crime, insanity, and boundless expenditure—were amongst us as fiercely as ever. Although the evils of intemperance met laymen at every point—in public, in the streets, the Courts of Law, and in our asylums—yet he ventured to say that the ministers of religion felt its sorrow and its consequences more keenly because they came face to face with it in the people's homes. He was not going to speak about the Drink Bill, as it was called, of the country in any exaggerated language, but it was a fact of which it was hardly possible to over-rate the significance, for it was estimated that nearly one-eighth of the wages of the working classes was spent upon alcoholic drink. Surely, therefore, there was some room for reform and for a redistribution of that large expenditure. People spoke, and rightly, of the need of a Department of Labour, but we needed almost more a Department of Leisure. The entertainment of the people question was, he thought, one of the most important of the day. Again, who could deny that it was a matter of vital importance if it were possible, and surely it was possible to a great extent, to eliminate the influence of liquor from our political system? Beer in politics was altogether unlovely; and even Anti-beer was not always seen at its best. Those who had any close experience of the working of our electoral system must allow that anything which would diminish the influence of the licensed victuallers and of the counter-interest in connection with our political system was to be encouraged. Again, the growth of tied houses and of tippling houses was another reason why legislation should interpose. That system was of comparatively modern creation, and we hardly realised how powerful the influence of tied houses was over the retail trade of the country even in the country districts.
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  Taking the rural districts of Cheshire no less than 868 were tied houses out of 1,629, and he believed the proportion was larger in some of our great cities—as large as eight out of ten. That was surely not what the Legislature contemplated or intended. There might be something to be said for the tied houses system if some of the other wholesale traders had also an influence over the retail trade; but, whereas in licensed victualling all forms of refreshment should be represented and cultivated, it was beer and spirits that dominated the retail trade, and the consequence was, among other undesirable results, that in a large number of houses no refreshment but beer and spirits could be found. In rural Cheshire, he believed, a large proportion of houses, over 700, at the present time sold nothing but drink. As the need was sore, the remedy was well-established, and appealed to us more strongly than it did in 1879. As to the history of temperance reform in Sweden, the Gothenburg system came into existence in 1866. The name was, to a certain extent, a misnomer, because, although the system was first applied in Gothenburg, it was not invented there, and was certainly not brought to perfection in that place. In the early part of this century—for the first 60 years—Scandinavia was notable for its drunkenness. It was spoken of as the most drunken country in Europe, and that was due largely to the system of free and uncontrolled distilling of the native brandy, which was, and still is, to a great extent, the popular drink of the working classes in Sweden and Norway. In 1811 nearly every corn-grower was practically a distiller. In 1830 170,000 stills were at work in Sweden, and they had been reduced by legislation to 40,000 in 1850; and the temperance sentiment of the country was rapidly growing. In 1855 a very important Act was passed for local option; and it was a local option which gave (as local option should give) three alternatives to the people: It allowed them to reduce the number of public-houses almost, if not quite, to zero; it allowed them to leave the existing system of private licences, cut down and controlled, but still in existence, and holding the land to a very great extent, especially the towns of Sweden; and it also provided, as early as 1855, for the establish-

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  ment of what would be called by this Bill an authorised company. This legislation of 1855 did a great deal of good, especially in the country districts. In the towns, however, its operation was less successful, and the fact of the public-houses being so largely swept away in country places drove those who were determined to have drink into the towns. That difficulty from denuding the country districts of public-houses had been felt in Sweden and Norway. For a long time the systems of Sweden and Norway did not touch beer, which was looked upon as a temperance drink; beer and wine were left outside the operation of the controlling societies. But in the towns things got worse, and in 1866 the magistracy, in combination with the Town Council of Gothenburg, determined to adopt what we now call the Gothenburg system. The outward form of this system was a very simple one. It was a Limited Liability Company, pledging itself to work for the public, under the auspices and control of the public, devoting all surplus profits after the payment of a moderate interest, to the public welfare; and thus, in the most real sense, they had a public-house system from beginning to end. That was the outward framework of the Gothenburg system. What was its inward soul and spirit? It was the introduction of a new motive; and surely this was what they wished to bring to bear on our own system of refreshment for the people. The private purpose was dislodged, and zeal for the public good, operating under careful restrictions, was put in its place. Their Lordships were familiar with the advantages of a public system in connection with education. They all knew that a public school system of education was preferred—and rightly so—to a private system of education. Was it safer to leave this peculiarly perplexing and trying subject of the supply of alcohol to private arrangement, which must be continually gravitating towards private profit? In Norway and Sweden the people had thought it right to apply what was nothing less than voluntary socialism in the treatment of this well-known difficulty. He would illustrate his meaning by reading a very significant passage from a speech delivered by Mr. Gladstone on May 15, 1890, in which
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  the right hon. Gentleman laid his finger on the centre of the difficulty. Speaking on the Local Taxation (Customs and Excise Duties) Bill, Mr. Gladstone said—
  "At the present, as I understand it, the case of the Government is that the number of public-houses is enormous. Yes, Sir, but something else ought to be taken into consideration. Why is it that the position of the public-houses in this country of ours is lower than it is in any country in Europe? That is the result of the management we have followed, and the number does not in the slightest degree tend to mitigate that statement. I am one of those who see the utmost, incurable, radical, and profound mischief from what is called the publican's monopoly, and not through any fault of the publican, or, indeed, of anyone. My firm belief is, that as the monopoly connected with private interests belongs to the trade, you will never have true and efficient police supervision exercised over the public-houses, and without that they must continue to hold the disparaged and unsatisfactory position which they do hold now, and have held for many generations."
  This, he thought, touched the root of the evil of the present system; and as long as they contented themselves with merely reducing the number of public-houses, he could not but think that they should be leaving the sting in the wound. The statistics, as far as they showed anything, bearing on the influence of the number of public-houses on the temperance of intemperance of a district, were curiously conflicting. Most persons believed that a reduction in the number of public-houses was an altogether desirable thing; but he pleaded that a further step must be taken; and when they had reduced the number of public-houses, they must endeavour to see that the houses were worked for the public benefit and not for private profit, co-operating with this mysterious craving for alcohol which was so common. Gothenburg had to deal with serious difficulties in the early years of the movement, such as high wages, the difficulties of compensation, and "The Brandy League," led by the Brandy King Lars Olsson Smith. But, in spite of all, the Gothenburg movement won its way, because it had the temperance sentiment of the country at its back, and because it was based on sound principles. The system rapidly extended throughout Sweden. In 1879 it had been adopted by every town but one (that was 27) of over 5,000 inhabitants, including Stockholm, which had 250,000 people, and by

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  19 towns with under 5,000 population. Norway was looking on; and it was surely a strong point in favour of this system that Norway, which did not always view too favourably the lead of Sweden, having appointed a Commission to examine this question, adopted the system with one important difference— namely, that the surplus profits should be applied to objects not connected with the rates, in order to remove all suspicion of the trade being fostered to assist the rates—Norway adopted the system, and it ran rapidly through nearly all towns with Licensing Authorities. There were not similar facilities for its adoption in the country districts. A short summary of the results was given by Mr. T. M. Wilson, a civil engineer, resident in Norway for 36 years, a gentleman intimately acquainted with the language of the country, and who, though starting 20 years ago as an opponent of the Gothenburg system, was now a convinced supporter of it, and one of its ablest champions. When the Earl of Meath visited Bergen not long ago he was struck with the admirable results of the system there, and he gave testimony in The Nineteenth Century to the value of Mr. Wilson's opinion, and a summary of the evidence given in his book on Local Option in Norway. This was a summary of what Mr. Wilson recently wrote to The Scotsman—
  "Control was introduced into Norway in 1871. Since then, practically every town that could form a controlling society has done so, and there are now 51 controlling societies. Population has increased 14½ per cent. Consumption of spirituous drinks has decreased 45 per cent. Crime has decreased 16 per cent. Poor's relief per head of family, or individual not member of a family, has decreased 15 per cent. The number of depositors in Savings Banks has increased 145 per cent. The value of their deposits has increased 100 per cent. The number of Total Abstinence Societies and branches has increased from 30 to 801. The adherents of Total Abstinence Societies have increased from 3,000 to over 100,000. The number of persons able to pay Income Tax and thereby acquire the Parliamentary franchise at the last General Election—two years ago—was just about doubled."
  He might add that Mr. Wilson had recently obtained 117 opinions from officials in Norway on the effects of the system, and of these 111 were favourable, three doubtful, and three adverse. There were other testimonies. First of all, there was the Report conveyed by Sir F.
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  Plunkett, Her Majesty's Ambassador at Stockholm, in October, 1890. That Report was eminently favourable. It spoke not merely of statistical reductions in the amount of spirits consumed, the number of cases of delirium tremens, and the number of arrests for drunkenness, but it showed that the opinions of the Consuls at Stockholm and Gothenburg, with those of 22 Vice Consuls and the Chief of Police at Stockholm, an eminent authority, were, without exemption, favourable. Mr. Brooks, a well-known American, who was formerly Professor of Economics at Harvard, and who for the past five years had been studying social problems in Europe, had lately inquired into the working of the Gothenburg system in Sweden and Norway, and he had concluded an article on the subject in the Forum by recommending it for adoption in America. In this article, too, Mr. Brooks quoted from a letter he had received from Dr. Gould, the expert of the Labour Department of the United States, who had also studied the system in operation in Sweden and Norway, and in that letter Dr. Gould stated that there was an almost unanimous opinion among all classes that the Gothenburg system, as compared with the old one, was an amazing improvement. "This," he adds, "is my opinion without qualification." Dr. Baer, of Berlin, had made a careful comparison of the state of drunkenness in 14 countries, and he found that the improvement in Sweden and Norway, traditionally given to drink as almost no other people, had been unequalled in any other country. Doubtless there were defects in the system. But very much misunderstanding was caused by the difficulties which sprung from unexplained and incomplete statistics, especially when the statistics related to and were compared with different countries which had different laws and usages. For instance, pauperism was reckoned in a different way in Sweden and Norway from other countries, and statistics on this point were very misleading. But the main difficulty in reference to the system in operation in Sweden and Norway was that beer was not placed under control. When the system was first introduced the drink of the labouring classes was chiefly strong native brandy,

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  but since then the consumption of beer had become more popular, and had increased annually from 35,000,000 litres in 1887 to 59,000,000 in 1891. It was consequently the general opinion that unless the use of beer was also brought under control the wall which had been erected in those countries against intemperance by the Gothenburg system would be broken down. One of the principal lessons to be learned from the experience of Scandinavia in this matter was that control, if it was to be thoroughly effective, must be made as complete as possible. The system was spreading. In 1887 Switzerland, after a careful inquiry, established a Federal monopoly for the wholesale trade in the higher classes of spirits, and the Reports received at the Foreign Office bore testimony to the success of the policy, for it had been attended by financial success, great care and precaution against adulteration, and a remarkable reduction in the amount of spirits consumed, though he was bound to say this, perhaps, might be discounted to some extent by the surreptitious dealings of various kinds which might have been going on. But the total result had undoubtedly been satisfactory. The profits derived from the wholesale trade in the higher classes of spirits in Switzerland were divided among the cantons on the understanding that 10 per cent. were devoted to combating the evils of alcoholism, and great care was taken that this condition was carried out. In 1889 the City of Basle adopted the principle in regard to the retail trade. To some extent the principle had been adopted in this country in isolated instances. For example, it had been applied by Lord Wantage on his own property, and clergymen in Sussex and Warwickshire had worked village public-houses on this plan; but the principal instance was supplied by our own Army. The Gothenburg principle had been applied practically to the Army by the development of the regimental and garrison institute system, with its many social and moral advantages to the soldier. Under the term "regimental and garrison institutes "were embraced, under one management, what existed previously, since about 1865 and up to 1882, under the names of regimental canteen and grocery shop, recreation
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  room, and library. In every barrack there were rooms set apart for the "regimental institute," which represented what in civil life was called a club. Its object was to supply the soldier with almost everything he might require at moderate prices, and to provide for his recreation and amusement. The institute was divided into two branches: first, the refreshment department, including the canteen for beer, the coffee-room for light refreshment, and the shop at which groceries and other articles can be purchased; second, the recreation department, which embraces reading-rooms (sometimes with billiard tables attached), libraries, skittle alleys, shooting galleries, theatre, &c. The institute was under the direct supervision and management of a committee of officers appointed by the commanding officer. Mr. Childers had, in fact, described the regimental institute as "a well-conducted beer-shop," and under this system the funds raised by the profits derived from the canteen were applied in aid of other branches of the institute, and also in the support of games and sports and other objects of approved utility for the men at large. General Goodenough had stated—
  "The Army, in fact, without knowing it, has been for nearly 30 years in the enjoyment of what, it is believed, is best known to the public as the Gothenburg system, under which the profits by the sale of liquor are employed, under careful supervision, for the good of the community. There is hardly any detachment station, however small, where the officers do not manage to establish a canteen for the men, usually as a branch from the parent institution."
  The system had also been introduced into the Regimental Regulations of the Army in India; and Sir George Chesney, after describing the growth of the system and various improvements that had been introduced into the Army in previous years, went on to say—
  "A still further improvement has been that due to the initiation and persistent energy of the present Commander-in-Chief, Lord Roberts, by which all these recreation rooms have been brought together as one collective institution— the Regimental Institute. This, in fact, is now a comfortable, well-ordered club, managed by a regimental committee, of course, like everything else, under the orders of the commanding officer. The equipment of the institute comprises a theatre, the parterre of which is used ordinarily for fencing, single-stick, &c., with a stage at one end for concerts and theatrical performances; a library and reading-room, a

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  billiard-room, and a refreshment-room, with cooperative store attached, in charge of a noncommissioned officer. The supplies from this are issued at a little above cost price, the profits going to the institute funds. Coffee, tea, aerated waters (made on the premises), and malt liquor are issued at the bar. The institute also contains a separate room for total abstainers, and a room for prayer meetings. The Army Temperance Society in India does very active work. It receives a considerable annual grant from the Government, and handsome subscriptions from the officers of the Army in India to supplement the funds derived from the subscriptions of its members, who, to the best of my recollection, now number about 15 per cent. of the British Army in India, and are steadily increasing. But the marked improvement in the temperance of the Army in India, among those who are not total abstainers, must be ascribed to the humanising influence of the new institutes."
  Total abstainers in the Army were increasing year by year, and this was very satisfactory, remembering that most of the crime committed in the Army was due to the evils of drink. Clearly, in the Army we had the proposed system at work among ourselves. Of course, it could not be perfect, because outside the soldiers' quarters there were the unreformed public-houses carrying on an unwholesome competition. No one could say that, if the outside houses were also reformed, it would not be better for both soldier and civilian. Looking at the cumulative effect of the evidence, and making full allowance for possible discount, it afforded very favourable testimony to the success of the system, and there was much stronger reason now than there was in 1879 for giving legal facilities for the adoption of the Gothenburg system, or of some modification of it. Passing on to speak of the Bill itself, if the Bill passed it would be known as the Authorised Companies Act—a title due, with very much besides, to the skill and kindness of Lord Thring. The Act would be adopted on the vote of a simple majority of those enjoying the Local Government franchise, which would include women. A system which took away public-houses might require a two-thirds majority, but for a system which simply substituted one set of public-houses for another and better, a simple majority would be enough. Ten voters would be able to demand a plébiscite, which would be taken in boroughs or in wards of boroughs, or in groups of parishes arranged by the County Councils, while there would be special arrangements for London. Any
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  10 persons qualified to vote might form a company whose Articles of Association would have to be approved by the Board of Trade, and one-third of the Directors must belong to or be nominated by the Local Authority, which would also appoint one of the two auditors. The business would be conducted in the full light of publicity, and would be open to the fullest criticism, which was not true of ordinary public-houses. In more senses, than one the existing houses were not really public-houses at all; but under this system, from its very framework and conditions, the whole matter must be public from beginning to end. The next point to which he invited their Lordships' attention were the terms upon which the licensed victuallers already in possession were to be removed. Existing licensed victuallers were entitled to equitable consideration, and it would be a grievous injustice that they should be evicted without equitable compensation and consideration. As far as could be judged, the country had made up its mind that there should be no compensation out of rates or taxes; but still there was room for something in the shape of equitable consideration. There had been such long possession and such reasonable expectation underlying the possession of property on which duties were levied that surely we were not offering too liberal terms if we named a five years' limit, which would practically be six, before which licences would not be disturbed; and during this interval there would be compulsory powers on both sides to buy out, or insist on being bought out, by arbitration. Many of the better class of publicans would be re-employed by the company to conduct the reformed houses under conditions which would be much more wholesome for themselves and their families. The brewers who at present dominated the tied houses, would still have their wholesale trade to fall back upon. A very marked difference existed between the position of the wholesale trader and that of the bonâ fide publican who was earning his livelihood in the retail trade, and who, if well-conducted, deserved all consideration at the hands of the public and of an authorised company which would be the minister and servant of the public. After the expiration of five years there would be a reduction of

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  licences to the maximum proportions of 1 to 1,000 inhabitants in towns and 1 to 600 in the country. All licences issued by Justices would be included so as to make the control as complete as possible, because it was obvious that if one set of public-houses was to be more strictly or more laxly conducted than another the result must be unfavourable. Too many private clubs were merely drinking clubs, and an endeavour would be made to bring them within the scope of the Bill by registration. Passing on to speak briefly of the financial arrangements, the company's interest would be limited to 5 per cent. on the capital, and the surplus profits, after one-third had been transferred to the reserve fund, would be applied to some public object or objects not directly met by rates, such as open spaces, public libraries and museums, hospitals, and the provision of old age pensions, or other purposes of a public and charitable nature. The reserve fund would be a security not only to the company itself, but also to the public in the event of anything going wrong with the company. There would be guarantees against the improper inclusion as Directors or Shareholders of any interested or unsuitable persons. The objects of the company were set out in a specimen Memorandum of Association followed by Articles of Association which would have to be submitted to and approved by the Board of Trade. The third paragraph of the Memorandum of Association was as follows:—
  "To establish, either in connection with or separate from premises used by them for the purpose of their business, tea or coffee houses, reading rooms, libraries, newspaper rooms, working men's waiting rooms, or any other convenience for the amusement, recreation, or instruction of the customers of the company."
  It would be agreed that while it was desirable provision should be made for those who took alcohol, it was certainly no less important that sufficient provision should be made for those who wished to keep altogether clear of it. The entertainment of the people should rest on a dual basis, and accordingly one object of these companies would be not only to provide well-conducted public-houses in which alcohol was sold under due restrictions, but also to encourage, directly and indirectly, the establishment
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  of temperance cafés conducted on the best method. It was wished to establish places of entertainment which could be used by women and children, places which could be used with safety by those who knew their weakness when tempted to drink, and places in which clubs and societies could hold their meetings free from the temptation to which their members were exposed at public-houses. He hoped that, if the system was adopted, it would work on both lines, though, of course, the Bill must have in view primarily, if not entirely, the establishment of public-houses in the ordinary sense of the term. The arrangements with regard to management would secure that the managers should have their interest based upon the sale of food and non-alcoholic beverages; they would be partly paid by a fixed salary and partly by a bonus upon the sale of those refreshments, which, under the present system, were so sorely apt to go to the wall. No credit would be given, special rules would be made about the service, or rather non-service, of children and young people, special inspectors would be appointed, and careful precautions taken against adulteration. Those were social details which others, whose judgment was better than his own, had thought it undesirable should be introduced into the Bill itself; but he thought it well that the public, who might not very easily make out the true drift and meaning of a Parliamentary Bill, should know that those details would be provided for in the Memorandum and Articles of Association. The Bill would appeal to temperance reformers of all classes, even to the most thorough-going teetotalers, and he might say that it would appeal even to the publicans themselves to some extent, for the treatment contemplated for them was more liberal than might be obtained in other quarters. And the Bill was one which would readily co-operate with other Bills. He could not speak as one who believed in prohibition, but, supposing that the option of prohibition was given, this Bill would work side by side with it, and also with any general Licensing Bill. These measures were surely of the most vital importance to the country. They all knew Mr. Cobden's famous saying, "The temperance question lies at the

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  root of all social and political reform;" and if that were so, all attempts made in this direction were, in national importance, second to none. He was not blind to the other agencies which must be at work. He did not suppose for a moment that legislation by itself was going to do the whole of the work; but it could pioneer and prepare the way for those other agencies which were regarded by the promoters as deeper and more vital still. It had been said by an American divine that "The soul of all improvement was the improvement of the soul." Most true—deeply and vitally true; but was it not also subordinately true "That the body of all improvement is the improvement of man's bodily conditions? "That was what was contemplated by the present Bill, which would help to open the path and clear away the difficulties which those representing the moral and spiritual agencies of the country knew to be so tremendous at the present time. Though he could not expect all their Lordships to rise to the level of his own enthusiasm upon this subject of the entertainment of the people, an enthusiasm which was not the growth of yesterday but of nearly a quarter of a century, yet he hoped their Lordships would consider that the experiment which the Bill incorporated was one worthy of consideration; that it stood upon even stronger ground now than it did in 1879, and that it deserved to have a firm footing found for it among those various agencies and experiments which must together work out the solution of our tremendous intemperance problem. He begged leave to present the Bill and to move that it be read a first time.
  Bill for establishing a system of retail sale of intoxicating liquor by an authorised company—Presented (The Lord Bishop of Chester.)
  LORD THRINGsaid that, after the exhaustive speech of the right rev. Prelate, he would make but few remarks. The Bill steered a middle course between fanatical temperance and fanatical intemperance, avoiding the despotism of the one and the demoralisation of the other. He thought the objects of the Bill eminently deserved encouragement. It proposed to set up orderly and well-conducted houses—he would not say "public-houses," as that term was to so
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  many people objectionable—as places of entertainment, which should combine the best features of both coffee-tavern and public-house, where the artisan and labourer might go with his wife and children without reproach, and in which he would find no encouragement to drink beer, if he preferred non-alcoholic liquors, but where he could get the best of alcoholic liquors too if he desired them. This was surely a subject which was most deserving of their Lordships' consideration. It was not advisable for them to seek to narrow or restrict the amusements of the poorer classes. What they should endeavour to do was to refine and raise them. How could they do that better than by a proposal of this kind? It was useless attempting to reach too sublime a level, for everybody did not desire to spend their leisure in museums or picture galleries. The general use of bicycles and tricycles had opened up the country to an extraordinary extent to the working classes, clerks, and artisans, and what the promoters of this measure desired was to secure suitable entertainment everywhere for the people. There would be no possible inducement for the managers of these houses to force the sale of liquors. They would certainly be dismissed if they did so, or if they permitted any excess or disorder, or anything of an immoral nature to occur in the houses. In any town or village, where the provisions of the measure might be carried into effect, well-ordered houses of entertainment would be secured. He would not enter into further explanations at the present stage, but he might say their Lordships would find that there would be no difficulty in supplying the capital of the company. That would be easily raised at 5 per cent.; and the whole of the details had been fully thought out. The Bill, he believed, would tend far more than apparently more important measures to the improvement and to the comfort of the poor, and towards a higher standard of every-day life amongst our workmen and artisans.
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTERsaid, the Bill dealt with one of our great social evils; and as it was not connected in any way with politics, there ought not to be any Party feeling introduced into the matter. The proposals contained in the right rev. Prelate's Bill had created

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  great interest throughout the country, and the measure had derived considerable support in many quarters which he hoped, as the Session proceeded, would increase and become sufficient to enable the Bill to pass—the sooner the better. The Bill frankly recognised that a great demand for alcoholic liquors existed in the country which was not to be stamped out by legislation; and, therefore, the right rev. Prelate's policy had been to meet the demand in that respect while rendering the supply as innocuous as it could be made. The Bill was of a constructive rather than of a destructive character. As had been pointed out, it was to be initiated by plébiscite and by a majority of the voters; and the percentage which the company would obtain was not exorbitant, as it was not to exceed 5 per cent., while advantages would be gained by the restriction of the hours and days of sale and by a material reduction in the number of public-houses. Though, no doubt, shutting them up in many cases would entail heavy cost upon the promoters, they considered that a fair and just principle had been adopted in dealing with people who had invested large sums in the trade carried on at present on the faith that their licences would, according to the long-established custom of the country, be renewed as a matter of course. Before the Committee which sat in 1877, of which he was Chairman, Mr. J. B. Carnegie, who had been long resident in Sweden, gave valuable evidence as to the system established there; and to quote the words of Lord Aberdare, the Deputy Chairman—
  "If the risks were considerable, so were the respective advantages, and when great communities deeply sensible of the crime and pauperism springing from the present system and watching with great anxiety the rapid growth of female intemperance constituting a new danger to the community, were willing at their own risk and hazard to take steps to remove those evils, it would seem somewhat hard that the Legislature should refuse to create for them the requisite machinery and to entrust them with the requisite powers."
  Since that time the evidence of the results in Norway and Sweden had become infinitely stronger, and the system had now spread so generally throughout those countries that, whereas they were formerly perhaps the most drunken in Europe, they had become the most sober —a very satisfactory testimony to the
  782
  invaluable results of the Gothenburg system. Those results—tangible, undoubted, and profitable not only to individuals, but to the community at large —ought to encourage us to initiate some such system in this country; and he was not aware that we were so different to the Scandinavians as to make that which had become a reality with them an impossibility in England. He would ask, therefore, that the promoters of this measure should be allowed to try the experiment as recommended by the Report of the Committee of 1877. Other schemes were in the air, one of a very drastic character, which would, to some extent, no doubt adversely affect the reform they wished to see brought about in this matter; but it could hardly he adopted generally throughout the country, at all events for a long time. This system, on the contrary, while far less drastic in its operation as regarded the great trade connected with drink fairly and honestly carried on, would promote better habits among the people; and as it would do as much towards making England free, sober, and great, as it had done in Scandinavia, it certainly ought to have a trial. Considering the degradation which affected so large a portion of our population, if the whole question could be taken in hand on the lines indicated in this Bill, great advantages would result not only in the promotion of temperance, but in the relief of taxation and in the direction of local improvements. The Bill was entitled to general support, first from the general public, because it would not deprive them of the drink which many thought they ought to have; secondly, from the teetotal party, because the public-houses would be reduced in number, and the licensing power greatly restricted; and, thirdly, it should, at all events, not meet with any great opposition from the publicans themselves, because they would be fairly and honestly dealt with. He hoped that those among their Lordships who were moderate drinkers themselves would support the Bill, which he strongly recommended to the House.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: There was nothing to be said in illustration or commendation of the scheme which the right rev. Prelate had laid before them in his exhaustive speech in presenting

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  the Bill. The scheme would have the support of a very large mass of those who were most intimate with the homes and the habits of the poor, and who saw so much of the degradation and misery which attended intemperance. The subject of drink was a many-sided one, and no method or master key had been found to deal with it on a very large scale, though alleviations and palliations had been discovered. Intemperance was still the great misery of our country, and many would be thankful for a scheme which would enable moderate people in some measure to have their way on the question. It was these moderate people who were in danger of being squeezed out. The drastic remedy was that persons should not be able, under any circumstances, to obtain that which seemed to them, and which seemed to many of them, to be an article of food. This Bill came not to please the extremists on either side, and he believed there was a large body of opinion in its favour among moderate people throughout the country. He would not speak in opposition to the plan which the Government had placed before the country at this moment. The desire of the promoters of the Government Bill was that it might be in the power of the inhabitants of a certain area by a majority of two-thirds to determine that there should be no public-houses, or only a limited number; but while power would be given for carrying out those objects, on the other hand a majority of above one-third would be able to determine that things should remain as they were. The simple and earnest request of the promoters of this Bill was that it might be also rendered possible for a majority in any area to secure for themselves a moderate supply of pure beverages under regulated conditions so as to ensure the respectability of those who live by the trade, and the best interests of those who are entertained. If the Bill were properly worked out it would further contribute to many schemes which would be of the greatest benefit and would promote the happiness of the people.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, I wish to join in thanking the right rev. Prelate for having brought this matter before the
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  House. Your Lordships are aware that the Committee of which I had the honour to be a Member expressed the opinion that is was very desirable this experiment should be tried in order to see how far it would mitigate the evils arising from intemperance. It seems to me that the best mode of bringing the matter to a test is that the scheme should be embodied in a Bill. Mere vague statements on the subject do not enable us to deal with it in a satisfactory manner, and I am glad, therefore, that the right rev. Prelate has a Bill prepared to lay before the House, and then your Lordships will see what the machinery suggested is for carrying out the scheme, and whether there is in it sufficient to enable the experiment to be made successful if tried. Your Lordships will agree with me that it would be idle at this stage, as we have not seen the Bill, to attempt to review or criticise the various proposals which have been made. Obviously, they have been well-considered, but the matter is not one which is easy of arrangement. But I think it most desirable that a scheme of this kind, which promises, at all events, considerable alleviation of the evils of intemperance, should be laid before Parliament and fairly considered. As the most rev. Prelate has said, if a Bill such as this should pass, it will not interfere with a more drastic scheme. Therefore, it seems to me the most reasonable thing that a Bill on the subject should be brought before your Lordships' House, and I have no doubt it will receive the full consideration which so important a subject demands.
  Bill read 1a. (No. 26.)

HIGH SHERIFFS' FEES.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNmoved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into and report upon the fees and profits received by the High Sheriffs of counties or their Deputies in the execution of their office, and the mode in which the duties of the High Sheriff now ordinarily performed by deputy might best be carried out. He said that three years ago their Lordships had passed a Bill dealing with some of the duties of High Sheriffs and for defraying the cost entailed by their discharge. It

  785
  provided that County Councils should, with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor, make regulations for the reception of Her Majesty's Judges, and that the cost so far as it was not defrayed by the Treasury should fall upon the county rate. Considerable difference of opinion was expressed as the Bill was passing through the House, and the Lord Chancellor proposed an alternative plan going rather deeper into the subject and suggesting a rather more comprehensive remedy. That was, that if the fees now received by the Under Sheriffs for the discharge of the legal duties of the Sheriffs were taken over by the Treasury or by some Central Authority, the whole of the costs now thrown upon the Sheriffs might be defrayed without any charge upon the county rate. He himself, as introducer of the Bill, had no preference at all for one plan over the other, so long as relief was afforded to the Sheriffs, and he would be willing to accept the alternative plan if, upon inquiry, it should be found a preferable mode of dealing with the subject. Unfortunately, he had not been able to obtain from the Under Sheriffs a statement of the emoluments they were now receiving, and he therefore proposed to obtain that information by means of the appointment of a Select Committee on the matter.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, I think the information likely to be obtained by such a Committee as the noble Earl proposes would be very useful. The question of Sheriffs' expenses is of great importance, and it is desirable to deal with it in the best fashion possible. The proposal formerly was that the Sheriffs' expenses in receiving the Judges should fall upon the County Councils. There appear to be considerable objections to a scheme of that description upon which I will not dwell now; but it certainly deserves consideration whether this question of Sheriffs' fees should not be dealt with on a similar basis throughout the country; and if it should turn out that they are sufficient to meet the expenses of both Sheriff and Under Sheriff, that would seem to be a better scheme than allowing the matter to be dealt with by the County Councils, and throwing the burden upon them, in case it turns out that the fees are not sufficient to discharge those expenses.
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  Moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the fees and profits received by the High Sheriffs of counties or their deputies in the execution of their office, and the mode in which the duties of the High Sheriff now ordinarily performed by deputy may be best carried out."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I think the Committee moved for by the noble Earl will be of great interest and importance, and I trust it will supply valuable information. In Ireland the difficulty has been growing in acuteness for several years—it is not a question of to-day or of last year alone. I know the great difficulties connected with the question; and that at this time of day, when the incomes of country gentlemen are certainly as much reduced in Ireland as in any part of Her Majesty's dominions, it is an obvious hardship upon them, with their increased family claims, to impose upon them the necessity of putting their hands into their pockets. At this time they cannot afford it. Many of them have had to diminish their family expenses; and it is unreasonable they should be called upon to make great sacrifices in order to enable them to perform what, after all, are partly the duties of the State. It is all very well to ask country gentlemen possessing thousands a year to undertake these duties, but it is a great hardship to call upon the poorer gentry in Ireland to perform them. It has been a matter of increasing difficulty, and in some counties requiring sometimes great pressure, to induce anyone to undertake this onerous and thankless task. We all know, from the public Press, that the difficulty has recently culminated in Ireland in litigation. I only refer to that to show that real difficulty exists in the matter, and that it is important, when the noble Earl suggests names for his Committee, that he should take care there shall be among them adequate representation of Ireland, in order that the matter as regards that country may be fully investigated and looked into in all its aspects.
  Motion agreed to.

LEVEL CROSSINGS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD LAMINGTON,in asking Her Majesty's Government whether they would take action to obtain further

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  powers for the abolition of level crossings on railways, said: This question concerned both the convenience and the safety of the public. Great inconvenience was experienced at the level crossings over railways, particularly in these days when the great increase of traffic on the lines compelled the frequent closing of the gates, and delayed the traffic along the roads while waiting the passage of the trains. Further, level crossings were often close to the stations, which were generally situate on or near high roads; and though shunting operations were in breach of the Act of 1863, they were often carried on over level crossings. As regarded the danger attendant upon them, in the last Report (1891) presented to the House dealing with railway accidents Sir Courtenay Boyle said—
  "In most of the cases of level crossings which were brought to the notice of this Department by the occurrence of accidents or the complaints of Local Authorities and individuals the Board of Trade had no statutory power to compel provision to be made for the public safety, but in many instances the Railway Companies concerned have been communicated with and satisfactory arrangements, usually necessitating the construction of a foot-bridge or subway, have in several instances been made."
  The Railway Clauses Act of 1863 gave power to the Board of Trade to insist on the construction of foot-bridges and subways, but all the railways constructed before 1863 were exempted from the operation of the Act. In the Railway Clauses Act of 1845 (Section 48) it was laid down that no train must go over a level crossing at a speed of more than four miles an hour; and although it was no exaggeration to say that that provision had become nowadays a dead letter, it showed that the Legislature recognised the danger of level crossings. In 1891 66 people were killed at level crossings; in 1890, 83 people; and in 1889, 72 people. In the same years there were respectively 49, 41, and 44 cases of trains running through the gates at level crossings. That showed that the danger was not imaginary. The Board of Trade had from time to time insisted on adequate precautions being taken for the safety of railway passengers, and as a result only five passengers were killed in 1891—a number which compared very favourably with the number killed at level crossings in the same year. Again, what public excitement and sorrow were caused by
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  the lamentable Thirsk railway accident last year, at which, however, only 10 people were killed. The highways of the country should be kept as unobstructed as possible, and the public should be given immunity from unnecessary danger in the use of them. This country undoubtedly was far ahead of the precautions taken in the United States and on the Continent; but the Board of Trade ought to have the same powers over the lines built previously to 1863 as it had over the lines built since. The great railways running to the North—particularly the Caledonian—had already shown what could be done in the required direction; and in asking Government to promote legislation he would point out that, whereas the most elaborate precautions for the safety of railway passengers were sure to fail sometimes, an unfailing and positive remedy for the evil of level crossings was attainable.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, that it was to be borne in mind that, in flat districts where level crossings occurred, the formation of bridges either above or below the road level would cause great inconvenience to the people in the district, especially to the farmers, in consequence of the alteration of gradient. A well-known Inspector of the Board of Trade (Colonel Yolland) once said that he should be voted a nuisance in some places if a general provision of the nature suggested were to be carried out. Obviously, in any road traffic, steep gradients were inconvenient, and the ruling gradient in a district had to be kept in view. No doubt a load which at present required but one horse would need two if these bridges were introduced. Again, a large compulsory expenditure by a sweeping Ordinance would press very heavily on the railways. He urged this argument with diffidence, because he knew the Railway Companies were not now enjoying great popularity. But such an Ordinance would press baldly on some of the smaller companies, though in certain cases it might be very valuable. He would suggest that the Railway Companies were most anxious of their own accord to carry out the necessary improvements alluded to; and, indeed, as the quotation of the noble Lord from the Board of Trade Report showed, in many cases they had done so already. That quotation showed that the Railway

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  Companies recognised the seriousness and importance of the matter, and the necessity of carrying out these improvements wherever practicable, in such a way as to cause the least inconvenience for the purpose of preventing accidents. Moreover, it was to be remembered that the accidents of which statistics were given by the noble Lord, and which were much to be deplored, must be attributed in a large degree to the carelessness or want of caution of those who used the level crossings in their urgent desire to get across without regard to the safety which was most carefully enjoined upon the public by railway placards and other means. He hoped, therefore, there would not be too great a readiness on the part of the Board of Trade to issue a sweeping Order in the matter, while no doubt whatever recommendations might be made would receive the same attention as on former occasions.
  LORD PLAYFAIRsaid, as to the new level crossings made since the Acts of 1845 and 1863, there were ample powers though some difficulties in the administration of the powers and duties imposed upon the Board of Trade under those Acts. The Board of Trade was bound, whenever a Bill was brought before Parliament, to send down an officer to examine whether a level crossing could be made with safety to the public. That duty was always performed, but there sometimes arose a difference of opinion between the Parliamentary Committees and the Board of Trade. Since 1875 up to the end of last year there were Bills brought before both Houses of Parliament in which 1,259 level crossings were demanded. The Board of Trade sent down their officer, and, as the result of his inquiries, the Board of Trade reported that 585 only ought to be allowed. Parliament sometimes went against the recommendations of the Board of Trade. Seven hundred and eighty-one level crossings were allowed by the Railway Committees before whom the Bills went, and they became law. Thus nearly 200 level crossings were allowed by the Railway Committees of both Houses of Parliament which the Board of Trade had said were dangerous and ought not to be allowed. He hoped a better understanding between the Parliamentary Committees and the Board of Trade would
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  arise from a recent amendment of the Standing Order which had been passed in both Houses, and which was that the Committees should hear the Reports of the officers of the Board of Trade and take their evidence if they objected to the level crossings. With that amended Standing Order he hoped none of those dangerous level crossings would be allowed. Many of the old crossings had become dangerous; for although they were originally in uninhabited places, the towns had extended there. The companies had not in many cases power to acquire land in order to make bridges; and, moreover, on account of the extension of the towns, it would be extremely expensive to do so. The Board of Trade did not think that legislation was required at the present moment. They had great confidence that under the new Standing Order of both Houses there would be a better understanding between the Committees and the Board of Trade, and that the level crossings would be given with great caution in the future.

  DEBTORS' ACT.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved that the following Lords be named of the Select Committee, namely,

  L. Chancellor.

  L. Watson.

  E. Dudley.

  L. de Vesci.

  V. Cross.

  L. Monkswell.

  L. Bp. Rochester.

  L. Ashbourne.

  L. Balfour.

  L. Thring.

  L. Vernon.

  L. Knutsford.

  L. Kenry (E. Dunraven and Mountearl).

  House adjourned at twenty minutes past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.