Lords Sitting of 22 June 1893

SAT FIRST.
The Earl of Winton (E. Eglintoun), after the death of his brother.
TOOK THE OATH.
The Viscount Bolingbroke and St. John.

MESSAGE FROM THE THRONE.
THE LORD STEWARD (The Marquess of BREADALBANE): My Lords, I have the honour to bear the Queen's gracious reply to the Address presented to Her Majesty by your Lordships praying that consent may be withheld from the Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland relating to secondary education, dated May 1st, 1889. In her reply, Her Majesty informs your Lordships that
"I have received your Address praying that consent may be withheld from the Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland relating to secondary education, dated May 1st, 1893. The matter on which you have expressed a wish has been duly considered by My Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, and the provisions of the Minute have had their further careful attention. The Committee are of opinion that it is expedient that action should be taken in accordance with the Minute in its present form. If they should come to the conclusion that, in the due discharge of the duty intrusted to them by Parliament, they can hereafter propose any alterations in its provisions which would conduce to the greater benefit of secondary education in Scotland, such alterations will be duly laid before you."

RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 146.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  VISCOUNT CROSS: My Lords, I am afraid I troubled your Lordships with a short statement upon this Bill when I asked for a First Reading for it some little time ago. That being so, I do not think it necessary that I should occupy your Lordships' time on the present occasion unless I am required to give an
  1630
  answer to any observations which noble Lords may make.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Viscount Cross.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

STATUTORY RULES PROCEDURE BILL. (No. 139.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD MACNAGHTEN, in moving the Second Reading, said this Bill had passed the other House. Its object was that when Rules were made under the authority of Statute relating to any Court or procedure, they should at first be published in draft in order that they might be fully considered before they were settled.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Macnaghten.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, I understand that some question was raised in the other House upon certain points; and as Amendments will no doubt be proposed, I would suggest to the noble Lord that an opportunity should be given for Amendments to be brought forward before the Bill is really considered.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I have read the Bill, and I do not dissent from or oppose the Second Reading at all; but I am glad to bear that it is under consideration to make some amendments, for I am sure great complications will arise unless arrangements are made for the Rules to come into operation without delay. I am not prepared to give any notice of amendment at present, but I think some amendment will be required.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PRISON (OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION) (No. 2) BILL.

  SECOND READING,
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to make

  1631
  certain amendments in the Prisons Act in reference to the pensions of retiring prison officials. The main purpose I can describe to your Lordships in a moment. Under the Prisons Act any existing officer of a prison who retained his office after the passing of that Act was entitled to his pension upon the basis on which he was then entitled to it. I can gave an instance—the case, indeed, which first called attention to the defect in the Act. Admiral Fairfax had been for a number of years Governor of Prisons. On the passing of the Prisons Act he was promoted to be Inspector of Prisons, and he has served in that capacity for many years—ever since the passing of that Act. But, because he has not been an officer of a prison, having been promoted to be Inspector of Prisons, he is not entitled to the same pension as he would have been had he retired immediately on the passing of the Act when he ceased to be Prison Governor. He is in a worse position, after all these years of service, because he has been promoted. It is obvious that was not the intention of the Statute, and this Bill is to remedy the oversight. There are one or two minor Amendments to which your Lordships' attention need not specially be called which will really only put the matter in the position it was intended to be.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a".—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  VISCOUNT CROSS: As the author of the existing Act, I may say that I most heartily approve of the Bill now introduced. It was never intended that such a thing as this should happen, and it is quite clear an anomaly of that kind should be done away with. But there is one matter which I think requires the consent of the Government. One of the main objects of the Act was to make the whole prison service one under it. Formerly, of course, a Governor might have been employed in one county for a number of years, and then, if he was appointed in another county, that was counted as absolutely a fresh service, and he had no claim for the first period in the other county. So that one of the main purposes of the Act was to make it one continued service—that it should make no difference where the official served, but that he should count for his pension the number of years he
  1632
  had served under the Government. I believe that by some construction of the Act by the Treasury this has happened: that a man has been employed as an assistant prison officer, not as Governor but as Assistant Governor, in a large gaol where two officers were necessary. But when he was promoted to the rank of actual Governor he could not count his time as Assistant Governor, because he had entered into a new service. That is a matter into which it is, I think, necessary some inquiry should be made, because I am sure that was never intended. I am quite sure the noble Lord opposite in drawing the Act never contemplated such a result. It seems to me very hard that, because a man gets promotion in his service from Assistant Governor to Governor of a prison, he should lose the advantage of his former period of service, in counting pension.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly the point shall receive my attention.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL. (No. 126.)
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord de Ros be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the places of the Lord Fingall (E. Fingall); read, and agreed to.
EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 94.)
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord de Ros be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Fingall (E. Fingall); read, and agreed to.
APPEALS (FORMÂ PAUPERIS) BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.—(No. 124.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4.) BILL.—(No. 115.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.—(No. 78.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.—(No. 116.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.—(No. 129.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (NEWENT, &C.) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 84.)
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a Tomorrow.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BROMYARD, &C.) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 85.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.—(No. 140.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL.—(No. 141.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL. (No. 113.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.—(No. 136.)
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
VOLUNTARY CONVEYANCES BILL [H.L.]—(No. 148.)
Commons Amendment considered (according to Order), and agreed to.
RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR) BILL.—(No. 73.)
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. (No. 112.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
DUCHY OF CORNWALL BILL.—(No. 145.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 7) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 168.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 8) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 169.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 9) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 170.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 171.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 172.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 173.)

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 17) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 174.)
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.