HL Deb 01 June 1893 vol 12 cc1693-701

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

*LORD BALFOUR

My Lords, I do not think I need detain your Lordships very long in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. The object of the promoters of the Bill is a very simple one, and one which will, I think, when stated, command the respect and support of the great majority of the House. The object of the Bill is to afford better means of protection by law than exists at the present time for certain species of wild birds which, from various causes, particularly require protection. My Lords, if I were asked to state what test I would apply in order to see whether any species of wild bird required protection or not, I should say you could determine the question by the test whether or not that species of bird was or was not largely decreasing in numbers. The necessity for the Bill arises from the increase of a certain class of persons who make a business, mainly for profit, of collecting birds' eggs in places where they are more or loss easily got, and of species which are somewhat rare. I do not know whether any of your Lordships noticed in the Spring of last year that some of those to whom I have referred went so far as to ask for subscriptions to a sort of Syndicate or Company in the Midland Counties for the purpose of employing persons in their interest to go to places in the North of Scotland, where some of the rarer kinds of wild birds' eggs are found, and to collect them wholesale. I do not think I am using too strong a term, from the contents of a circular which has been sent to me, when I say it really amounts to a wholesale depredation of the eggs of certain kinds of birds which are not by any means too plentiful. There are other places all over the country where birds congregate in considerable numbers and where they breed, and the scale of prices at which the eggs can be sold is held out as a temptation for taking them during those times of the year when they can be obtained. And not only do the eggs require protection, but certainly during the breeding-season the adult birds ought also to be protected. My Lords, it is said that the Bill as it stands is open to various objections. Noble Lords opposite and others have pointed out to mo that as the Bill stands a County Council and the Home Secretary, working together, could, if they chose, pass a bye-law which would, in fact, prohibit all shooting of game in the administrative county under their control. Of course, such a result as that, I need hardly say, is very far from the wishes or desires of the promoters. Again, it is objected that as the Bill stands it would be theoretically possible to punish schoolboys for taking the nest of blackbirds or sparrows. Of course, no such result as that is desired, either by myself or by those who have been most active in promoting the Bill. My Lords, I am not responsible for the drafting of the Bill. The Bill was introduced into, and has passed through, the other House of Parliament. If it was not introduced into the other House, in the shape in which it now comes to your Lordships, it has at any rate passed through the other House of Parliament in the shape in which it now stands; and until your Lordships have read the Bill a second time—if you will be so good as to read it a second time—there are no means of making known the Amendments which I dare say more than one noble Lord will be anxious to see introduced into it. I may say that I am prepared to move some Amendments myself, and I have knowledge that some of your Lordships are desirous of putting down Amendments with the view to making the Bill more useful and practical than it is at the present time. There is one point to which I ought, perhaps, to call attention. It may be thought desirable not to protect all species of birds, and not to give the Home Secretary and County Councils the power to shut up all places where birds are found. If it is the wish of the House to protect certain species of birds and their eggs by putting them in a Schedule, or, on the other hand, to protect certain places in particular, those are all matters for consideration; and I can only say that I shall be most anxious to accept help in the matter from all quarters of the House, keeping only in view the purpose of making the Bill efficient for the main objects which I have stated. I should be prepared to delay the Committee stage of the Bill for a few days so as to give plenty of time for consideration. I have only to say, in conclusion, that this is a subject which can, I think, he thoroughly well considered in this House. There are many noble Lords who have a thorough knowledge of country life, and who are well aware of the necessity for such a Bill as this; and I am quite certain that after this Second Reading, when we got to the Committee stage, help will be obtained from all quarters of the House for the purpose of making this an efficient and proper measure.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Balfour.)

*THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

My Lords, I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this Bill on Second Reading. No doubt the object of the Bill is one which will commend itself to all noble Lords in this House; but it seems to me to give an additional proof, if one was wanting, of the great advantage which the country derives from the existence of your Lordships' House, because if the measure had not to pass the ordeal of this House we should have had a Bill passed through the other House of Parliament under which not one of your Lordships could shoot a single head of game if the County Council, having the control in that part of the country, with the assistance of the Home Secretary, chose to say so. I see many noble Lords around me who are very fond of shooting, and I think they would be much astonished if they found that the County Councils and the Home Secretary together were to have power to prevent them shooting a single head of game on their own estates during the whole breeding season, that game being their own property just as much as the timber which is grown on their laud. With regard to the protection for eggs, that, I know, is a somewhat difficult question, because it has been held by some Magistrates, or by some Judges, that they cannot accept the suggestion that a particular kind of egg belongs to a particular species of bird; and unless the bird has been seen to lay the egg, they deny the possibility of its being proved to be the egg of any particular bird which may be put in a Schedule. I am glad to hear from my noble Friend that the measure he proposes will be referred to a Select Committee, and that he will be prepared to accept various Amendments which may be proposed to it——

*LORD BALFOUR

I did not propose that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee; I said I should be prepared to allow some time to elapse before the Committee stage.

*THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

Then it will be considered in Committee of this House, which will be much better able to deal with it. But, my Lords, the question of protecting the eggs of wild birds might, I think, be dealt with by giving power to the County Councils to declare a certain close time for certain districts in the country. That would not apply to the whole country, but they would only be districts to which the birds usually resort. The fact that for a certain period this would be considered a close time, should be well-known throughout the district, and published beforehand, so that anyone going into that part of the country at that time for the purpose of collecting eggs would know that he was liable to punishment. But I entirely agree with my noble Friend that it would be quite impossible to put an end to the popular amusement of birds'-nesting among the younger members of the community; and I think if the Act was put into force very strenuously, a strong feeling would be aroused against it throughout the country; while, on the other hand, if the Act was very seldom put into force, or only with a slight punishment, it would become a dead letter, and you might just as well not pass it at all. My Lords, I think my noble Friend will do well, as he has said, to got opinions from various part of the House upon the Bill, and I have no doubt he would do well in striking out that part of it which would prevent those who are fond of shooting from indulging in that sport; and with regard to the question of collecting eggs, I think we should be in a hotter position by having power in the County Councils to declare a certain close time for particular districts in the country.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)

My Lords, I wish to say a few words on this Bill, in which I may say I take great interest. I entirely agree that the principle of it is one of which we should probably all approve; but with regard to the mode in which it is carried into effect, I agree with the noble Duke that it would be impossible to carry it into effect in its present form. I will not touch upon the proposals under which game might be prohibited from being shot; but with regard to the protection of eggs, I was very glad to hear what was said by the noble Duke opposite. I do not profess myself to have any experience in these matters, but it has been brought to my notice that if you simply prohibit the taking of the eggs of particular birds, you will probably altogether fail in the object you have in view. What is wanted is to prevent the destruction of certain species of wild birds which are rapidly diminishing, and which, if not protected, will probably vanish out of the country altogether. The eggs of some species of rare birds are to be found in certain limited localities, and I believe, from what I am told, that it would be possible to define those localities, and to prevent the taking there, during a certain season, of all eggs, and in that way to preserve the eggs of particular birds. They are not localities which are frequented largely by other kinds of birds than those whose eggs it is desired to preserve, and you could, therefore, punish persons who are found in those districts with eggs. Those who are acquainted with the subject say that it is almost impossible to distinguish between the eggs of certain rare birds and those of other birds, and it would, therefore, be impossible to prove before a Court that the eggs taken belonged to the particular species of bird which you wish to preserve. If the taking of the eggs of certain birds alone were prohibited, it would be almost impossible to prove that in any particular case. The Amendment suggested by the noble Duke deserves, I think, careful consideration, and I hope that, as well as many other points connected with the Bill, will be carefully considered in Committee.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL.)

My Lords, there can be no doubt that this Bill has excited a good deal of interest, and also some alarm, even among those who desire to protect the species of wild birds whose protection is the object of it. I have been favoured with a communication from a very high authority on the subject— Professor Newman, of Cambridge. He has called my attention to the provisions of this Bill, and he is afraid that it will not attain the object desired, whilst it may, on the other hand, lead undesirably, in a considerable number of cases, to the infliction of punishment on those who are merely pursuing the pastime of birds'-nesting. They might suffer in a way which is very undesirable. In fact, when the matter was considered some years ago by a Committee of the British Association, of which Professor Newman was Chairman, one of the conclusions at which they arrived was that the practice of birds'-nesting has been so much followed in England that no Act of Parliament—except one of the most severe character—would stop it, and that such a measure would, by filling the gaols with boys, excite great opposition even among many of those who are at present favourably disposed towards legislation on the subject. There can be no doubt, I think, that any attempt to protect these wild birds by such means would excite hostility, and would lead to results which would tend to defeat the object in view. There is also a considerable amount of opinion in favour of the view that the birds which are decreasing most rapidly in numbers are precisely those the preservation of which is not largely affected by birds'-nesting; and, therefore, the diminution which is so much regretted would not be arrested to any material extent, and would certainly not be got rid of by the prohibition of birds'-nesting. My attention has been called also to the impossibility of dealing with this question in the manner proposed in reference to the eggs. As has been said already by my noble Friend, the eggs of many birds are so much alike that it is often impossible, even for experts, to distinguish the eggs of rare species of birds from those of others which are more common. There is, therefore, a feeling in some directions that if there is to be legislation on the subject, it should be legislation dealing with places rather than with species of birds. But, of course, when you come to deal with places you are met with this difficulty, which I find mentioned in an interesting article written by Mr. Digby Pigott, when a Bill of this kind was first introduced, calling attention to the fact that the Great Stena one of the species of rare birds, which are decreasing in numbers, is found in districts in the Northern Islands, in Shetland, for example, where birds' eggs are largely used as an article of food—gulls' eggs—that it is difficult to distinguish between them, and they would probably be found not far from each other. If, therefore, you were to prohibit the taking of eggs in any place of considerable extent for the purpose of protecting the eggs of birds of this description, you would, at the same time, be preventing people collecting eggs which are to them a valuable source of food. If you were to limit the operation of this Bill to places, you would, therefore, have to see that while the districts were made large enough for the purpose of protecting the particular eggs you desire to protect, you wore not, at the same time, making them so large as to deprive the people of the locality of an article of food, where they are accustomed to collect eggs for that purpose, and so cut off a valuable source of food supply. On those grounds I think it is necessary, in the first place, to pay attention to the selection of places; and, secondly, that great care should be taken not to make those districts too large in extent, but to confine them to the absolute necessities of the case. Another question which will have to be considered is that of giving notice of a change in the law— whether the Act ought not to provide for some form of publication which will make it certain that it will come to the knowledge of those who will come under the prohibition with regard to taking eggs from birds' nests. At present the only provision is that such notices are to be published in newspapers circulating in the country, or by such other means as the County Councils shall determine. The only objection is that the notices must be published in newspapers, and that boys who are in the habit of going birds'-nesting would probably not be likely to read advertisements in the newspapers. It has been suggested, therefore, that publication should be made also by putting up notices in the local schools. Those are matters which it will, I think, be very desirable should be considered in Committee; but I thought it necessary to call attention to them at the present time with the view of showing the great care which will have to be exercised in order that the Bill may accomplish the object desired, and may not do considerable mischief.

LORD WALSINGHAM

My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Lord has said as to the desirability of protecting places rather than species. As the places where rare birds breed are well known, and are generally of limited extent, I quite agree that the best way of protecting those birds is to deal with the places in which they breed rather than to extend protection to birds' eggs in general. The vast number of wild birds really need no protection at all. I think that was the conclusion that was arrived at by the Committee to which the noble and learned Lord referred, that there are certainly a number of species of birds which need no such protection. Then, with regard to advertising the change in the law, I think more notice, and very clear notice, should be given, so that it should be thoroughly made known to the people in the district from what places they are prohibited taking eggs. That I think will not be made known by advertisements in newspapers as thoroughly as it should be; but I think the necessary publicity would be given if notices were exhibited on houses or in schools as the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has suggested. If in Committee that Amendment were made I think it would meet the difficulty, and would be sufficient to carry out the views of those who wish to protect wild birds. I hope your Lordships will give a Second Reading to this Bill, of which, I believe, many noble Lords have already expressed approval.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 13th instant.