Lords Sitting of 31 July 1893

MARRIAGE OF HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF YORK.
THE DUKE OF GRAFTONsaid, he had the honour to inform their Lordships' House that on Saturday he accompanied the Duke of Westminster to York House to present the congratulatory Address voted by their Lordships of the 14th instant, on the marriage of Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of York, which they had most graciously received, and had given him the following reply for their Lordships:—
"My Lords.
"We thank yon for the kind sentiments expressed towards us in your message, and we rejoice to be assured that the approval with which our marriage has been received by the entire Nation is so cordially shared by your Lordships' House.
"29th July, 1893."

THE "COSTA RICA" PACKET.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF JERSEYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (having given private notice of the question) whether the case of the Costa Rica packet was being proceeded with? As the matter was still under consideration, it would not, perhaps, he prudent to enter into the details connected with it; but, as the case had created considerable excitement among the traders of New South Wales and elsewhere in that portion of the Empire, he would be glad if the noble Earl could give some public intimation that the matter was being actively pushed forward. He would only say that Captain Carpenter, who was charged with an act of piracy, was taken prisoner on his arrival in port, put into prison, and very cruelly treated by the Dutch Authorities, although the Dutch Procurator General had stated, in a letter 10 months before, that he had advised the officer of justice at that place that it would be very difficult to prove the charge against him. The interests of Captain Carpenter, the crew, and the
  854
  owners of the ship were, of course, quite safe in the noble Earl's hands; but an assurance that the matter was being actively pushed on would give public satisfaction.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY): There are two points with regard to this question—one is the case of the captain of the Costa Rica packet, and the other that of her owners. In regard to the former, Her Majesty's Government have been advised that Captain Carpenter is entitled to compensation on the ground that there was not sufficient evidence to warrant the action taken by the Netherlands Government against him. As to the case of the owners, we have lately been supplied with fresh points of evidence by the Government of New South Wales; and those points are now under the consideration of the Government in connection with the Law Officers of the Crown.

FRANCE AND SIAM.
THE MARQUESS Of SALISBURY: I have not given the noble Earl opposite any notice of this question; and, therefore, I shall fully understand if he refuses to answer it. I wish to ask the noble Earl whether he can conveniently tell the House what are the precise terms which Siam is said to have accepted from France? If the question is not convenient now, will the noble Earl be prepared to give us any information on the subject to-morrow?
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I could only give a rough-and-ready answer now; to-morrow I might be able to give a fuller answer.

LIVERPOOL COURT OF PASSAGE BILL. (No. 210.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD HALSBURYsaid, this Bill was intended to improve the procedure and practice of a very ancient Court of Record in Liverpool, which he believed had done good work in its day; and it certainly had bad from time to time presiding over it very distinguished Judges. The object of the Bill was to both simplify and to increase its usefulness in the district. Among other things,

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  it was intended the Court should have jurisdiction to try causes remitted from the High Court, and the circumstances under which they were remitted, and some other minor circumstances with respect to them were clearly defined. He need not detain their Lordships by making any further statement than to say that he believed the matter had been under the consideration of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and that he approved of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Halsbury.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, I am glad to be able to support the Second Reading of this Bill relating to the Liverpool Court of Passage and its jurisdiction. Its provisions were introduced into an Omnibus Bill relating to the Liverpool Corporation; but it appeared to me it was not desirable to deal with the subject in a Private Bill of that description, and I thought the clauses relating to this matter should be dealt with in a Public Bill. I promised, therefore, to give such a Bill my support, subject to the Amendments in the original proposal desired by the Liverpool Corporation. The Amendments proposed have been acceded to by the Corporation, speaking generally, and I am very happy to be able to give the Bill my support.
  VISCOUNT CROSS: My Lords, I have received urgent requests from Liverpool to support this measure. I am happy to give it my support, and I do not think it would be right I should allow it to pass without saying so.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

BEHAR CADASTRAL SURVEY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Secretary of State for India whether his predecessor in Office had stated, in a Despatch to the Government of India on the Behar Cadastral Survey, dated 24th December, 1891, that one-half the cost of the recent survey and record-of-rights in the Benares Division of the North-Western Provinces "was defrayed from the unexpended balance of a special fund contributed by the
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  landholders"; whether it was a fact, as suggested by the British Indian Association and other Native Associations of Bengal, in their Joint Memorial to the Viceroy on the subject of the Behar Survey, that this "special fund" had been contributed by the landholders for altogether a different purpose; that its diversion from that purpose had been concealed by the Government of the North-Western Provinces until divulged by the India Office Despatch; and that that Government had consequently been "at least technically guilty of a breach of trust"; and whether any Report or other Paper, to indicate the circumstances in which the "special fund" referred to in the Despatch was "contributed by the landholders," and subsequently used for defraying one-half the cost of the Benares Survey, could be laid before Parliament? He wished to make a few preliminary observations before putting the question on the Notice Paper. The Lieutenant Governor of Bengal (Sir Charles Elliott) had admitted that the proposed Survey of Behar would be of advantage to the Administration, and had attempted to show the zemindars, or landowners, that it would be of advantage to them, as it would lead to enhancing their rents; but, at the same time, it was pretended that it would be a benefit to the ryots, or occupiers; and although the promoters of the Survey had not succeeded in persuading the ryots of this, they appeared to have persuaded Viscount Cross that it was for the benefit of the ryots. Nevertheless, the elections for the Legislative Council showed that both landowners and occupiers were equally averse to the Survey, for all the opponents of the Survey had been elected, and all its supporters rejected. Nearly all the Indian Press had opposed it, and only two voices had been raised in its favour. One was The Pioneer, a semi-official paper—though even The Pioneer admitted that it was not fair to throw nearly the whole expense of the Survey upon the landowners and cultivators; but the Bengal Government would not have entertained this scheme if it had had to provide the cost. The other voice was that of an indigo planter, and, no doubt, some of these planters were interested in the Survey; but a recent announcement in The Indian Mirror of June 30 showed that this planter (Sir William Hudson)

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  had been decorated for his support. He said "some of the planters," because all were not interested in this Survey, for some of them were in the position of zemindars, and others in the position of ryots, and, therefore, sided with the other zemindars and ryots in opposition to the Survey. It was not, however, desirable to further the views of the remaining planters, for their attempts to force the cultivation of indigo upon unwilling cultivators, which had given rise to the Indigo Commission about 35 years ago, were not extinct, and a newspaper called New India, of July 3, related how a Hindu zemindar and banker of Muzaffer-pore, owning a village called Banerpore, had made it over under a perpetual Mukurri lease to Mr. Barklay, the manager of the Motipur Factory, with the result that Mr. Barklay obtained 2,000 bighas of land for indigo, and that 200 ryots had to depart and settle in some other village. These cultivators petitioned the collector, and it was said that he put away the Petition on the shelf, and that he was rather intimate with Mr. Barklay, and stayed every Sunday night in the factory. The acting Lieutenant Governor, or locum tenens of the Lieutenant Governor, had gone to Behar to inquire into the feelings and wishes of the population; and as he was a Bengal officer it was hoped that he would take a, more favourable view of the matter than had been taken by Sir Charles Elliott, who did not belong to Bengal, but had come from the North-West Provinces. The expense which the Bengal Government was going to put upon the agricultural class in Behar against their wishes was very great. According to the estimate of the Bengal Government it would be 8 annas, or 8d.; other estimates said it would be at least 11 annas an acre; and in experimental Surveys it had reached 17 annas, or 1s. 5d. an acre. Besides this, there would be the enforced labour of the putwarries, or village accountants. The cost of registration in England seemed to be 3d. or 3½d. an acre; but if registration became compulsory there would be little to choose pecuniarily between the lots of English or Behar landowners. He would ask the question in his name, and move for Papers.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, no Motion has
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  appeared in the Votes, and I cannot agree to a Motion for Papers without having considered whether they can be laid. My noble Friend concluded his remarks by referring to the Bengal Tenancy Act, which is not a matter which is before the House; but as he has mentioned it, it is as well I should tell him that I entirely agree with, and strongly approve of, the Bengal Tenancy Act. It was passed at a time when I previously had the honour to be Secretary of State, and it was then very fully considered indeed. Lord Dufferin was then Viceroy. I made inquiries as to how the Act has worked, and I am told that, upon the whole, it has come up to the expectations of its authors. I am not saying that it has in every respect worked rightly; but, on the whole, it has worked well. It is extremely difficult and complicated, and is a measure of serious importance. I think it right to say that, in order that it should not be supposed I have any doubt on that matter. With regard to the Cadastral Survey, I agree generally with my predecessor, and I believe that good grounds have been shown for that Survey. The object of the Survey is to ascertain the various rights that exist in the Province of Behar. There is a strong feeling in the Province that in consequence of the absence of the Survey the ryots have been, in many cases, deprived of their rights, and that is regarded by the Government as a matter of great importance for the interests and good order of the Province. I am perfectly well aware that there is a considerable amount of opposition on the part of zemindars and others to the Survey; but I cannot hold out any expectation that the Survey will not be proceeded with. With regard to my noble Friend's question, the quotation from Viscount Cross's Despatch of December, 1891, is correctly given. As to the second part of the question, the suggestion that there has been any concealment whatever about the expenditure of this money is altogether groundless. The intention to spend the money in this particular manner was discussed in the published Reports of 1877 and the following year; and the Indian Legislature, by Act XIII. of 1882, subsequently authorised the Government to dispose of the balance of the fund in such manner as they thought expedient. Therefore, there was no concealment in the matter, and there could

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  be no breach of trust, because the trust was that they should expend it in such manner as they might think expedient. In answer to the last paragraph of the question, I have only to say that I do not see any necessity in the circumstances to lay any further Papers on the subject before Parliament, because the noble Lord will find the whole matter described at page 16 of the North-West Provinces Administration Report for 1876–7, and at, page 17 of the corresponding Report for 1877–8. If my noble Friend wishes to see that Report at his convenience, it will be shown him at any time if he will look in at the India Office.
  VISCOUNT CROSS: My Lords, I can only add my opinion that the Cadastral Survey has been of great use to all parties concerned. There were rights which required clearing up, and that was the only way it could be done. I entirely agree with all that has fallen from the noble Earl. I do not know whether he could answer me offhand; but I could not give notice, as I was not aware this was being brought forward. I wrote in one Despatch that it would be well if the Government of India could contribute more largely than they intended to do towards the expense of this Cadastral Survey. I do not know whether any answer came to that Despatch, but I think not in my time.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: As far as I am aware, the noble Viscount has correctly stated what he said at that time. I think he said he could see no objection to an additional sum being paid by the Government of India.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I only wish to say one word with respect to the Bengal Tenancy Act, which has been so strongly criticised by my noble Friend (Lord Stanley of Alderley). That Act was one of the most thoroughly-considered Acts ever passed by the Indian Legislature. The inquiry in respect of it was begun before I was Viceroy, and it went on the whole time that I was in India. It then passed through the hands of my noble Friend Lord Dufferin. No Act could have received more careful consideration in respect to the rights of all parties concerned. My belief is that it is one of the most beneficial measures ever passed by the Indian Legislature.
  [The subject then dropped.]

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (BLIND AND DEAF CHILDREN) BILL.—(No. 219.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I have to move the Second Reading of this Bill to make provision for the blind and deaf. This subject is in no way new to the House. One of the Bills which have come before the House on the subject went, I remember, before Standing Committee, and great interest was taken in the matter by my late noble Friend (Earl Granville) and by my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Cranbrook). The object of this Bill is to carry into effect a recommendation on the subject. Hitherto no Bill has passed through Parliament. At present there is no compulsion to educate blind and deaf children who cannot be given instruction in the ordinary schools; and what this Bill proposes is to remove the exemption, and to require that those children should receive suitable education. In order to carry that out the various Bodies who are charged with the maintenance of these children are authorised and required to take steps by contributing towards such schools as exist for receiving them. I need not explain all the provisions of the Bill, because the principle is what I ask the House to assent to to-night. The powers are divided between the School Authorities as to certain of the children, and the Boards of Guardians as to others. That I believe to be a fair statement of the general provisions of the Bill. There will, I think, be no difference of opinion with regard to the object, because we all agree that these unfortunate children—of whom there are a considerable number—should be given such education as they can receive. In many cases they can be so far instructed as to earn their living, and to enable them, at all events, to pass their lives in a more agreeable and useful manner. Of course, there are points in the Bill which will require attention. There is the question which always crops up in the Bills with regard to the religion taught at the various schools to which they may be sent. That has been carefully provided for in the Bill, and I hope satisfactorily. There are other points of detail in the Bill which may require

  861
  attention; but even should there be difference of opinion with regard to details. I do not think that would influence your Lordships in giving the Bill Reading. I may say that the Bill had never until now passed the House of Commons. It passed on this occasion after a good deal of consideration by those interested in the subject; and the present form of the Bill is the result of a great many communications between various persons. In its present form it conciliates all the different interests and the various persons which have been consulted. I shall be quite prepared to give any further explanation of the clauses that may lie desired when we go into Committee.
  LORD MORRISsaid, with regard to Clause 7, Sub-section (b)—
  "As to the school being either managed by a school authority or its annual expenses to the extent of not less than one-third defrayed out of sources other than local rates, or the payments made by the children's parents,"
  and so on, that sub-section appeared to him to be following in the wake of other Bills, by which it appeared to be intended to starve out the denominational schools. The leading Ecclesiastical Authority of the Roman Catholic Church had informed him that the Roman Catholic schools would be seriously affected if the payments by the children's parents were not brought into account. As he would not have the opportunity of again being present, he wished to call the noble Earl's attention to the point, as it was an important matter affecting other denominations.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I was not quite able to follow the noble and learned Lord's criticism, and perhaps he will allow me to postpone giving a precise answer until we get into Committee. I do not like to say offhand that I think his objection is without any foundation. I will look into the point more closely; but I think the clause does not contain what the noble and learned Lord supposes it contains. I will give him a satisfactory answer in Committee.
  LORD SANDFORDasked whether the Rules referred to in Clause 8, applying to industrial schools in reference to religious instruction, would be produced?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I suppose those Rules are already printed,
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  and there is not the least reason why they should not be produced; but I will inquire into that point.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

SWIMMING IN THE NAVY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MEATHcalled the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the statement made by Captain Bourke, R.N., on 17th July, at the Court Martial on the survivors of Her Majesty's battleship Victoria, when in answer to the question
  "Can you account for the great number of men drowned?" he replied, "I think that unfortunately among the stokers and marines there was a very large proportion who could not swim";
  and to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether be will give instructions that the stokers and marines, as well as the sailors of Her Majesty's Navy, shall in future be taught to swim? He said the nation was now mourning the loss of several hundred men engulphed in the waters of the Mediterranean through the unfortunate accident to Her Majesty's ship Victoria. It appeared extraordinary, considering the perfect discipline which reigned on board at the time, and the comparative calm of the sea, that so many lives should have been lost; but some light bad been thrown upon the cause of the great sacrifice of life by the evidence given at the Court Martial. A statement that a large proportion of the stokers and marines were unable to swim was startling. It might be supposed that the Admiralty would take care that the men sent on board Her Majesty's ships should learn to swim. Putting aside altogether humanitarian considerations, and having regard simply to the dangers to which those who went to sea were exposed, and the cost which was entailed upon the nation in the training, clothing, and feeding of the seamen and marines, it was most unwise on the part of the Government not to insist that every man who went to sea in Her Majesty's ships should learn to swim. Some day he hoped that swimming would be taught in all Board schools; but, in the meantime, it was the duty of the Go-ment to see that every man in the Army

  863
  and the Navy knew how to swim. He hoped the First Lord of the Admiralty would be able to state that in future the stokers and marines on board Her Majesty's ships would be taught to swim.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL SPENCER): My Lords, I am glad to say that in some respects the condition of the Navy with regard to swimming has enormously improved. In 1869 considerable inquiries were made as to the number of officers and men in the Navy who could swim, and from Returns made by Sir Geoffrey Hornby respecting six ships with 3,063 men it appeared that the proportion of officers and men who could not swim was as follows: Officers, 11·5 per cent.; seamen, 20·8 per cent.; boys, 11·2 per cent.; and marines, 59·3 per cent. A great improvement has since taken place, and with some small exceptions every seaman and officer is able to swim. At the present time all who enter the Navy young are compulsorily obliged to learn to swim. Marines, however, do not enter the Service at so early an age as the seamen, and are not so good swimmers; but the Admiralty are now increasing the facilities for their learning to swim. With regard to the first-class stokers and artificers, the matter is more difficult. They enter the Service at a later age, and it is impossible to make it a condition that they should before they are entered learn to swim. The second-class stokers are younger, and during the last few years a system has been adopted under which they go through a certain amount of training. The Admiralty hope to increase the facilities given to these men, and they may be able later on to make it a condition of their service that they should be able to swim. With regard to the loss of the Victoria, I may say that from our Papers the Admiralty find that a considerably larger proportion of the marines on board that ship could swim than in the rest of the Service. I do not think the noble Earl has taken into consideration the incidents connected with the unfortunate loss of the ship which account for the great loss of life. The stokers, of course, were below, gallantly and most splendidly doing their duty, and I am afraid that whether they could swim or not a large proportion of them must have been lost. With regard to the seamen and marines,
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  they jumped into the water in such enormous crowds that, I am told by those who understand such things, even the best of swimmers were probably prevented from using their arms and legs. They were so crowded that they could not swim, and many who were unable to swim caught hold of them. That, I think, accounts to some extent for the terrible loss of life which occurred. I need not assure the House that this matter is one which the Admiralty consider of very great importance. I am examining carefully into the whole subject, and the Board are going, if possible, to give greater facilities in various ports for men who joined the Service at a late age to learn to swim. Great facilities are already provided at various ports and stations, where climate and other conditions are suitable; but in some places it is impossible to swim on account of the presence of sharks. The Board will do everything they can not only to maintain the Regulations which now require swimming oil the part of a great number of those who go to sea, but will make the Rules compulsory where they can in all other cases, and give greater facilities for men to learn swimming.

THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT AND VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD COLCHESTERasked the Lord President of the Council whether any representation has been made by the Education Department to the Holborn Board of Works respecting the drainage and ventilation of the St. Giles-in-the-Fields National School; whether it was usual to make such representations to other Public Bodies without previous reference to the managers of the school? He said, the action of the Department upon the information he possessed seemed so singular that he hoped some explanation of it could be given by the Lord President. In face of the tendency shown by the Department to deal harshly with voluntary schools, he thought it right to bring before the House this instance in which their action appeared to be of a suspicious character. This school was inspected last March, when the Inspector could only find some slight deficiency in the girls' and infants' school. In May a

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  notice was received from the Holborn Board of Works that the drainage and ventilation required attention, and it appeared, from the statement of their clerk to the Treasurer of the School, they made the requisition at the the request of the Department. A letter had been written, but it was stated to be contrary to custom to give particulars where information had been given of the existence of a nuisance. It seemed extraordinary that, after an Inspector had passed the school as being satisfactory in its internal arrangements in all save one or two unimportant particulars, the managers were suddenly called upon, not by the Education Department directly, but through the Holborn Board of Works, to make extensive alterations in the school premises.
  THE EARL OF KIMBBRLEY: My Lords, I think I can give a perfectly satisfactory answer to the noble Lord's question. I must, however, preface it by saying I do not understand such extraordinary jealousy being shown of our efforts to put an end to sanitary defects. If there had been any irregularity—though I cannot admit that any irregularity has taken place—one would have expected that strong sympathy would have been felt with the efforts of the Education Department to put an end to sanitary defects. It seems to me to be to the interest of everyone that the sanitation in all our schools should be perfect; and I strongly deprecate the constant attacks which are made upon the Education Department as to the manner in which they discharge their paramount duty with regard to sanitation. In answer to the question, I will give a short history of what actually happened. It appears that our Inspector called attention to the cloaks and hats being in the schoolroom. That, of course, is contrary to regulation, and the school managers were communicated with. While that was going on, the Education Department was informed that the Holborn Local Authority had inspected the school, and had made a Report; and the Education Department asked whether they might see it. But no steps were taken by the Department, as far as I know, to ask the Holborn Board of Works to make a Report on the subject. I quite agree with the noble Lord that the proper and regular course
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  should be observed, and that, if we have reason to suppose defects exist, our proper course would be to communicate with the school managers in the ordinary way, and take the steps we are empowered to take; but all we did was to ask the Holborn Board of Works what they had been doing.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I wish to say a word with regard to the opening remarks of the noble Earl. I do not think we have contrived, on the last two or three occasions, to convey to him the real burden of our complaint. The complaint which is made against the Education Department is not that they exercise their powers in order to raise the general efficiency of the sanitary arrangements of voluntary schools, but that they come down suddenly and make demands which it is physically impossible to execute within the time allowed, at the same time threatening a School Board if that is not done. A great number of complaints to this effect have reached me, and although I have not had an opportunity of investigating them, it is evident that there is a very general impression that the powers of the Education Act, which ought to be used equitably as between Board schools and voluntary schools are used for the purpose of exterminating voluntary schools, and that they are used by Mr. Acland for the purpose of gratifying his own antipathy to denominational education. It may be that that impression is unjust. If that is not the case, the Education Department has been very awkward in its dealings; but if the impression is just, it deserves to be characterised by a very much stronger word. As the noble Earl appears to be ignorant of the educational turmoil in the circumstances concerned, I venture to inform him of it and to give him my explanation.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am not in the least ignorant of the fact. Indeed, I should have to be living far distant from the Education Department not to be well aware of it. I know there is an impression to the effect stated by the noble Marquess; but, on behalf of the Department, I entirely repudiate any such intention. I will reply to the noble Marquess by telling him what our impression is. Our impression is that this agitation does not arise from any particular anxiety for education, or from any

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  bonâ fide objection to our proceedings, but simply from a desire to save voluntary schools in all cases, at the expense of real education and the provision of proper schools. I fully agree with the noble Marquess that it is the duty of the Department to act equitably in this matter, and that it would be a breach of their duty to make use of their powers for the purpose of injuring the voluntary schools. They ought to use those powers in such a way as to hold the balance equally and fairly as between voluntary and Board schools, and not to seek by a side wind to injure them, but should give them every opportunity to make any changes which are required for the purposes of education, and to meet the demands of the Department upon them.

IRISH EDUCATION ACT. 1892. AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 220.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD ACTONsaid, the Irish Education Act of 1892 provided for the compulsory acquisition of sites for schools in case of necessity, and required that in all opposed cases the authority of Parliament should decide. For the convenience of Parliament the necessary notices had to be given at a particular time, causing a delay of three-quarters of a year in cases unopposed, whilst those which were opposed were remitted to Westminster to wait, for indefinite months, the fortune of war. But whether the wasted interval was long or short, it was a loss which was compensated by no gain, and it seriously impeded the efficiency of Mr. Jackson's Act. In order to obviate that delay, it was proposed, by a consensus of authorities, to assimilate the case of schools to that of cottages by following the precedent of the existing law in Ireland under the Labourers' Dwellings Act, 1885, which required that disputed cases should be confirmed in Ireland by the Privy Council. The consequence of that is that the necessary notices can be given during any three weeks of the year without incurring that long interruption. The late Chief Secretary had explained how much was wanting in Irish popular education to bring it up to the desired and normal level; he need not urge that argument on their Lordships; but he was sure he might say this—that the
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  policy introduced last year by the Government of the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) would be materially promoted if the House would pass this measure, and it would be frustrated if they did not.
  Moved," That the Bill lie now read 2a."—(The Lord Acton.)
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he would be sorry to say a word in opposition to a Bill to facilitate the measure for the better education of any section of the Irish people, and he would be the last to put difficulties in the way of the smooth and efficient working of the machinery. As the Act which the present Bill sought to amend was only passed last year, it was hardly possible that any cases could yet have arisen showing how the machinery of the Act had worked. He desired to draw attention to the fact that the noble Lord was seeking to facilitate the compulsory taking of land for dwellings. He wished to put in a very strong caveat against the suggestion that to take land from the owner compulsorily for any purpose was a light matter. Even as to labourers' dwellings, Parliament should watch most carefully any proposals for the compulsory acquisition of land. Under the Act of 1885 it had been found that a tribunal nearer home, in Dublin, existed for dealing with the matter; and provision was made for appeals to the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, where he had himself presided for six years, with the valuable assistance of several of the Judges. That procedure in the Privy Council had worked well and efficiently. Without its interference injustice would have been done in many cases, and many Orders open to the most serious objection would have been passed. But this Session a Bill had been introduced to sweep away that power of appeal to the Privy Council in matters under the Labourers' Act. That was a very serious matter; and if this proposal was first to take away the power of Parliament in these matters, and then in a, short time to sweep away the power of the Privy Council, and so allow the compulsory taking of land without any Parliamentary check, it was obvious that would be very unsatisfactory. He wished, therefore, to put in a strong caveat against the compulsory taking of land being dealt with as a

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  light matter. He would assume that the Government quite intended to resist all suggestions to sweep away the protection of the Privy Council in legislation of this kind. He had said this in order that it should not be thought that any Bill brought into that House to do away with the intervention of Parliament as a safeguard in compulsorily taking land was to be regarded lightly, and in order that it might be a matter of consideration whether, even under the Labourers' Act, Parliament should not watch jealously the efforts being made to weaken the authority which was established in 1885.
  LORD MORRIS,in supporting the Bill, said, he had not gathered that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Ashbourne) was going to offer any opposition to it. He referred particularly to the provision for taking land compulsorily not only for schools, but for what was almost as essential in remote parts of Ireland—residences for teachers. In the wilder parts of the South and West suitable residences were not often to be found. The only question really was as to the tribunal of appeal. To give an appeal to the Houses of Parliament would frustrate any wise end. Roman Catholic priests or school managers in the South and West, or Presbyterian curates from Donegal coming to London, whore they had never been before, would be practically an absurdity in matters of this sort regarding small bits of barren and useless laud taken for schools or residences. As regarded the tribunal, be concurred with his noble and learned Friend as to the excellence of the Privy Council in Ireland. It corresponded, in a great degree, with the Privy Council here, and went into those matters, with which its members were well qualified to deal, with great caution. In numbers of instances they had prevented cases of oppression. He hoped, therefore, their Lordships would give a Second Heading to the Bill, which, in his judgment, was a most meritorious and proper one.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY ACT (1882) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 224.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD MACNAGHTENsaid, this Bill had passed the House of Commons. It dealt with some points in the law relating to married women, not of very great importance, but upon which amendment was necessary. Section I dealt with married women's contracts. Speaking generally, a contract by a married woman bound her separate estate; but it was a condition precedent that she should actually possess some at the time, however small. In that case her future estate was bound. But if she had none her afterwards acquired separate estate was not bound. This defect the Bill proposed to remedy. Property which she was restrained from anticipating was not affected. Section 2, however, provided that where costs were incurred in an action by her, her separate estate would be liable, notwithstanding restraint from anticipation. Section 3 provided that the will of a married woman should not require re-execution after her husband's death. That was the entire Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Macnaghten.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am happy to be able to give my hearty assent to the Bill which my noble and learned Friend proposes. I think it is of a more important character than he has indicated in this respect; that I believe the cases of injustice arising from the present state of the law are more numerous than might be supposed from what my noble and learned Friend has said. The matter was brought under my attention some two years ago, and I then expressed my readiness to bring in a Bill of this description. I recommended that the Bill should be brought in in the other House, and so much of it passed as was not likely to be controversial, and I am glad it now comes before your Lordships. The law as it stands is extremely unsatisfactory, and the present Bill will put matters on a wider and more just and equitable basis.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.—(No. 229.)
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments, and committed to a

871
Committee of the Whole House Tomorrow.

TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.—(No. 336.)
House in Committee (according to Order): Amendments made: Standing Committee negatived: The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.
INFECTIOUS HOSPITALS BILL [H.L.], now ISOLATION HOSPITALS BILL [H.L.]—(No. 218.)
Read 3a (according to Order); an Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
STATUTE LAW REVISION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 222.)
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a Tomorrow.

BURGHS GAS SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Earl of Camperdown.) (No. 226.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.