Lords Sitting of 20 July 1893

TOOK THE OATH.
Several Lords.
SAT FIRST.
The Lord Saint Oswald—after death of his father.
NULLUM TEMPOS (IRELAND) ACT, 1876, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 157.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill."—(The Lord Morris.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, in accordance with the undertaking I gave on the last occasion when this Bill was before the House, I have considered the question whether it is within the power of the House to originate such a Bill. There are precedents which appear to me to be almost directly in point. In 1846 a Bill was passed by the House for the abolition of deodands, which only affected Revenue in this way—that the Crown was possessed of the right to certain deodands which would be abolished if the Bill had passed into law. That Bill was passed by this House, and was set aside by the House of Commons on the ground of Breach of Privilege. In the same year, on a Bill relating to waste lands in Australia, it was laid down by the Speaker that with regard to that part of the Crown property the proceeds of which were carried to the Consolidated Fund by the Civil List Act, the Lords could not originate any Bill, or alter any Bill passed by the House of Commons, relating thereto. That, of course, would have interfered with the hereditary Revenues of the Crown, just as this Bill would do. The same view had been taken practically in your Lordships' House, because, a few years ago, the House acquiesced in the omission from a Bill relating to Colonial
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  Ports of a clause dealing with Crown Revenues on the ground of Privilege. It appears, therefore, that the Bill before the House comes under the class that has been declared and admitted to be within the Privilege of the House of Commons; and that, therefore, it is one which it is not competent for the House to pass.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he was sure their Lordships had the highest confidence in the opinion of the Lord Chancellor upon such a subject. This case seemed to go rather further than any before decided. He had looked at the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons in 1860—an exceedingly strong Committee, on which sat Lord Palmerston, Mr. Disraeli, Colonel Wilson-Patten, Sir Hugh Cairns, and others—which went into the matter very fully, and dealt with the Deodands Bill which was laid aside by the House of Commons. He had also looked at Sir Erskine May's and Todd's books, where the topic was dealt with, and he was not at all prepared to offer any advice differing from the opinion of the Lord Chancellor, though he thought there was a good deal to be said on both sides. The Bill before the House was not intended to make any charge or tax, and it was only in a very roundabout way that a charge could conceivably be put on any public fund. The Bill was an explanatory and declaratory rather than an enacting measure; and he suggested that it should be withdrawn and another, slightly modified in its terms, introduced. Perhaps his noble and learned Friend (Lord Morris), who had presented the Bill, would consent, as it was merely a question of alteration in form, to discharge the Order for the present Bill with that object.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Moved, "That the Order be discharged."—(The Lord Morris.)
  Motion agreed to.
  Order discharged; and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn,

LAND TRANSFER BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 30.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, there were two points to which he wished to call the attention of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack—first, as this Bill was of no benefit to landowners nor to rural purchasers, but chiefly benefited those who purchased from Building Societies, if the Government passed it, it ought to secure a Vote of money to pay half the expense of registration; otherwise, it would be acting like the Bengal Government, which, while admitting that the Behar Cadastral Survey would be useful to the Administration, yet made the zemindars and occupiers pay for it. Secondly, although the discretion of the present occupant of the Woolsack and that of his predecessors might be trusted, that would not be the case with some that had been named as his probable successors; and some check or restriction on the size of the districts that might be proclaimed under this Bill ought to be inserted in the Bill. Last Monday he was at the new Office of the Land Registry, and he found them wailing at the prospect of the noble and learned Lord going out of the country before this Bill was passed. If it was passed, and the noble and learned Lord went out of the country, others would wail if it was worked by his successors, so that both these parties would wish the noble and learned Lord to issue a Ne exeat regno against himself. He did not wish to be misunderstood as disinclined to the noble and learned Lord going to India; on the contrary, just now the High Courts and Judicial Body had been exposed to encroachments by the civilians; and it would be a good thing that the Governor General should belong to the legal profession. Besides that, the noble and learned Lord deserved this at the hands of Her Majesty's Government for having sheltered them with the mantle of his respectability.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord is, I am afraid, at some distance from the Land Transfer Bill. As regards the question which the noble Lord puts, I do not think the Laud Registry will involve any additional expense to the Treasury. I do not contemplate that the Bill will cast any burden upon landowners; on the contrary, I believe it will be to their advantage from a pecuniary point of view. With
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  regard to the districts to be brought within the operation of the Bill from time to time, we must proceed tentatively and cautiously. I do not see how it would be possible to lay down any rule as to the extent of these districts; but, so far as I should have to administer any such Act—and I believe my successors would follow the same principle —I should not, in the first instance, extend it to a very large district. The experience gained in watching its operation in that district would be the best possible guide as to the extent of the district that should from time to time he brought within its scope. The Amendments to the Bill are of a technical character, and I propose that they should be dealt with in the Standing Committee rather than in your Lordships' House, circulating them beforehand for a sufficient period to enable them to be considered.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE. BILL [H.I,.]

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, upon this Bill I have prepared some Amendments upon Clause 4; but I find that it would be more convenient to those who are interested in the matter that, the discussion should not take place upon them just now; and as they are entirely upon matters of detail, although involving, no doubt, important points, I should propose to defer moving the Amendments until the Bill is in Standing Committee.
  LORD HALSBURY: My Lords, I think that course would be most convenient. Although, as my noble and learned Friend has said, they are matters of detail, still they are of considerable importance; and my impression is that they would be much better discussed, in the first instance at all events, in Standing Committee.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

EDUCATION—ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.

  MOTION FOR A EETUEN.
  THE EARL OF HARKOWBY THE EARL OF HARKOWBY moved for—
  "A Return of the Circular (321) and Form issued on 21st January, 1893, to Her Majesty's Inspectors on the subject of existing school buildings and apparatus; Schedule VII. and Article 85, Subsection (a) of the Code of 1893 to be appended thereto."
  He also asked the Lord President of the Council whether it was intended by the above-named Circular to oblige existing public elementary schools, alike in towns and in rural districts, which had hitherto been accepted by tire Education Department as supplying efficient and suitable education, and as satisfying the grant conditions of the Codes, to meet the requirements set forth in the Circular, as explained by the building rules for new schools; such as, amongst others, 1. School to provide a quarter of an acre for every 250 children; 2. A playground of sufficient size, with gymnastic apparatus; 3. Walls of school, if stone, to be at least of 20 inches; if of brick, at least of 14 inches; 4. Schoolrooms to be lighted from the left hand, or, if not, from the right; 5. Classrooms to be not loss than 18 feet by 15 feet; 6. Staircases and porches to be external, and separate for each department; 7. Cloakrooms to be provided, external to schoolrooms, with gangways of at least four feet, amply lighted from the end; and what were the new requirements mentioned in the Circular as to accommodation at desks and benches; also to ask whether, if such requirements were not met, a school would be "warned" under Article 92 of Code, and, in default of compliance, a School Board would be set up by the Department? He hoped their Lordships would forgive his troubling the House a second time that week on the subject of education; but he was puzzled on one point, amongst many political puzzles at the present time, to know who was really responsible for the management of education in the United Kingdom, whether the Lord President, the Vice President of the Council, or Lord Playfair, who, in answering the other night, showed he was in possession of more official knowledge than the Lord President. He would like to know which of the three was distinctly respon-
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  sible? He regretted that the Lord President's time was so much occupied with Indian affairs that he was unable to give his experience and knowledge for the benefit of the schools of the country. This subject of education could not be put aside as dull and uninteresting. They had only to look at the Continent to sec its enormous importance. The revolutionists of Europe were making every effort to get hold of education in their respective countries. In France, Italy, Holland, and elsewhere, schools had been entirely secularised. The revolutionists had found that getting the education of the people into their hands was one of the most powerful means of propagating their doctrines. Their Lordships, therefore, he hoped would agree with him that, however dull the subject of education, it was well worthy of their earnest attention. It affected 20,000 schools, with about 30,000 departments, charged with the welfare of 5,000,000 children, of whom 3,000,000 were in voluntary, and 2,000,000 in Board schools. There were 100,000 teachers, a body nearly as large as the British Army, and they were as influential as any body of persons in the United Kingdom. In an able speech in the House of Commons Mr. Chamberlain said if they destroyed the voluntary schools the ratepayers would have do pay in cash about £40,000,000, and about £2,000,000 a year extra. He had had a great deal to do with the question of education, and when at the Education Department had the satisfaction of helping a great number of Board schools as well as voluntary schools. Therefore, he was not one of those who were wildly opposed to School Boards; but things were beginning to look a little serious. There were about 90 School Boards in the country which had shut out the Bible or anything like a prayer or hymn, and there was a new demand, to which the Prime Minister alluded on Tuesday night, and which had taken some hold in London, that they were to treat as denominational teaching, and not to allow, instruction in the great cardinal doctrine of the common Christian faith of Christendom—the divinity and the atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ. He was convinced, however, that if the country were asked it would say that it wished to have religious schools and to maintain voluntary schools; but the fear

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  he had was lest, under the present Administration, the voluntary schools should be silently destroyed. With the enormous administrative power of the Department and a majority in the House of Commons modern improvements might be insisted upon by the Inspectors to such an extent as to silently but surely destroy the voluntary system of education in the country within a very short time. If a general sense of helplessness and hopelessness were created amongst the voluntary schools, they would begin to crumble and give way. The reason why he had now brought forward this subject was to be found in the Circular recently issued by the Education Department—
  "Circular 321.
  "Circular to Her Majesty's Inspectors.—School
  Buildings and Apparatus.
  "Education Department, Whitehall,
  January 21, 1893.
  "Sir,—My Lords are desirous of obtaining a fuller and more detailed statement than is given in the Annual Reports of Her Majesty's Inspectors with reference to the condition, as regards buildings and apparatus, of each of the schools in England and Wales.
  "I am, therefore, to request that you will, at each of your animal visits to schools during the year beginning February 1, 1893, complete and file with Form 10 one of the accompanying forms.
  "It is, of course, not to be understood that in every case where the school is to some extent defective in one or more of the points mentioned in the form, you are required to press for an immediate alteration. In that matter you will, as heretofore, use your discretion. At the same time any serious defect in the convenience of the school for teaching purposes, or in its sanitation, should be brought under the notice, both of the managers and of the Department, with a view to its immediate removal.
  "The object aimed at by the form is twofold —first, the answers to the questions are intended to show, with the view of enabling the Department within a reasonable limit of time to secure complete efficiency, how far each existing school falls short of modern requirements in any of the points mentioned; and, secondly, they will furnish a complete statistical record of the condition of the school premises throughout the country. Those answers should not, therefore, be modified by any special circumstances affecting a school, or by the fact that it may formerly have received a building grant.
  "I have the honour to be, Sir,
  "Your obedient Servant,
  "G. W. KEKEWICH.
  "To—, Her Majesty's Inspector of Schools."
  That Circular was a very interesting document. It raised questions almost all of which were answered every year in the regular Returns of the Inspectors. The
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  information asked for in the Circular was, therefore, already in the Office. Why, then, was it issued? It was because the Department was now requiring all schools to be brought up to "modern requirements." The schools were all to be brought up to that most indefinite term "modern requirements," and this affecting so vast a number of schools was surely a very serious matter. Of course, the Circular was sought to be justified by the recommendations of the Royal Commission, of which he had been a member. But the Commission, in making their recommendations, said it would be a hardship indeed if any sudden demand of this kind were made upon the schools, and they concluded by saying—
  "We are of opinion that existing schools should gradually, but within reasonable limits of time, be brought up to the higher estimate of the space required for school accommodation. But we think this would be more advantageously brought about in cases where it is required by pressure exerted on managers through Her Majesty's Inspectors at the time of their visits than by a hare-and-fast rule of the Department, which might have the effect of requiring a sudden increase of 25 per cent, in the accommodation in a considerable number of schools throughout the country. The peremptory enforcement of such a requirement would, in our opinion, at the present moment press hardly upon many districts, whether it had to be met by voluntary contribution or out of the rates, and would not, we believe, be consistent with the best interests of the public or the advancement of elementary education."
  One of the strongest recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1888 was that the schools should be pecuniarily assisted by the Department in doing what was recommended, and that the recommendations were to be taken as a whole. Notwithstanding this, the Government were doing exactly what the Royal Commission guarded against, for they were casting upon the schools the cost of bringing them up to the modern requirements. The hardship of this would be felt in every town and hamlet, and if it were insisted upon it would destroy the voluntary schools. For instance, would the Department insist upon schools in populous towns like London, Liverpool, and Leeds, providing a quarter of an acre for every 250 children? What was meant by a playground "of sufficient size"? If the walls were not of the thickness of 20 inches stone, or 14 inches brick, would the building, although passed for years as efficient, be

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  required to be pulled down and rebuilt? The Education Department were asked in one case what was included under the term "gymnastic apparatus," and the reply was—
  "The words 'gymnastic apparatus' occur in a question which the Inspectors will have to answer according to the circumstances of each case. It does not seem possible to give any more definite description of gymnastic apparatus than that it includes all apparatus used for gymnastic exercises."
  Could any answer be more vague or unsatisfactory? If the requirements of the Education Department were to be enforced, nearly half the schools throughout the country would have to be rebuilt, and this at a time when the farmers had no money, the agricultural labourers were out of work, and the landowners were compelled to shut up their houses. He was afraid that this action of the Department might give rise to a reaction against education. There was ground for supposing that this action on the part of the Department was the outcome of the intense desire of the present Government to get rid of the voluntary schools. If the Government really desired to abolish those schools, they should bring the matter openly before the country. He hoped that the Church of England would not hesitate for a minute to meet the challenge that had been thrown out to them, and that they would follow the admirable example that had been set them by the Roman Catholic Church, of making largo sacrifices for the purpose of preserving their voluntary schools. He hoped that the noble Lord opposite would give such assurances as would remove the black cloud that now hung over the country in relation to this matter.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House—
  "Return of the Circular (321) and Form issued on 21st January, 1893, to Her Majesty's Inspectors on the subject of existing school buildings and apparatus: Schedule VII., and Article 85, Sub-section (a) of the Code of 893 to be appended thereto."—(The Earl of Harrowby.)
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he had never read anything so alarming, extravagant, and tyrannical as the Circular of the Education Department referred to by his noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby). The last time the subject was discussed in their Lord-
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  ships' House the late Prime Minister warned the Lord President what might happen if he treated Hindus and Mussulmans as he was treating Churchmen. He would confirm the words of the late Prime Minister, and add that Mussulmans would also show animosity to any interference with Christian schools. This question had been discussed in India, and was one of the conditions of acceptance of British rule. He regretted that the Members of the right rev. Bench were not present, and hoped it was not too late to urge upon the most rev. Primate the necessity of receding from the position taken up a little while ago, and of uniting his forces with those of the Roman Catholic Hierarchy.
  LORD NORTONsaid, he hoped that the President of the Council, in answering this question, would indicate a little more generally the policy of his Lieutenant. The Vice President's grand schemes were only to be read in reports of public meetings; but it was not known how much the Department endorsed his views of national education. The whole subject was practically left by Parliament in the hands of the Department, whose Circulars were virtually Acts. The Vice President addressed Birmingham lately, lauding that City as an example to the whole Kingdom. The Chairman, who was also Chairman of that School Board, though flattered by the compliment, modestly admitted that their schools were elaborately and costily fitted up; but he thought it the best economy to do all things well; and he praised their architect for his triumphs in building. By the Circular referred to in this question this model of magnificence was apparently made a common requisition for all schools, old and new, rural and urban. By such advances of requirements, and increasing tendency to enlarge the field of elementary education, the Department could lay down any standard and bid managers conform or die. The Vice President said that he considered the universal establishment of School Boards throughout the country to be essential to the interests of higher education. Was that the view of the Lord President, and was it the view which the Department endorsed? It was obviously the Vice President's wish to supersede all voluntary schools. He wanted what he called a comprehensive national system municipally

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  undertaken, free for all grades; and this system, he urged, must not be under the patronage of clergyman, squire, or mill-owner. The Vice President went further than Dr. Pearson, who said that the age of the Church and of the Home was gone by; everything must be undertaken by the State. He said that Wales was fortunate in having few endowments, and so much the more being allowed higher education by assistance from Government and rates. If the country were content to let national education be under Departmental legislation by such Circulars as that to which the question referred, then Parliament ought at least to have some general information of the meaning and tendency of the assumed policy. He wished to know whether these were the individual views of the Vice President, or whether they were adopted by the Government? They would then know how to meet these Circulars, and be able to appeal to Parliament and to the general feeling and sentiment of the country in ascertaining public opinion.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, the noble Earl who has brought this subject before us asked, first of all, who is responsible for the management of the Education Department. The noble Earl himself has held the Office of Vice President, and I suppose he understands as well as any man can what are the precise arrangements under which the Department is conducted. I am not aware that any change has been made. According to all I have ever learned on the subject, the practice has been that the details of the Department are mainly managed by the Vice President, and that the Lord President is consulted when any important question of principle is at stake, or when any important change is about to be made in the action of the Department. Certainly, I am jointly responsible with my right hon. Friend the Vice President. I do not suppose the noble Earl would be desirous of lessening the importance and responsibility of the Vice President's position. Mr. Forster, the Minister who perhaps took the greatest interest in educational matters, was Vice President of the Council at the same time that he occupied a seat in the Cabinet. The noble Earl was not present when the
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  subject was brought before the House earlier in the Session. I will refer the noble Earl to the answer—it is reported in Hansard—in which the assurances now asked for by my noble Friend were given by me, and nothing has taken place since then to alter them. But the black cloud which appears to hang over the noble Earl and others will not, I am afraid, be dissipated by a repetition of those assurances. It has been clearly proved that a considerable number of schools in the country are altogether behind modern requirements—the requirements which the late Government themselves declared to be necessary in the construction of all new schools—and there is great alarm on the part of those responsible for these schools lest they should be called upon to remedy the defects. If the effect of the Circular has been to produce that alarm, I think it is a very wholesome effect. But if it is supposed that the Circular indicates those things which the Education Department will at once require from all schools, I can state unequivocally that the Circular has no such significance. The object is to obtain full and accurate information as to how far existing schools are or are not in the condition required by the Regulations of the Department. After that information has been received, the Department propose to deal with each case on its merits—that is to say, to take into consideration the whole circumstances of the school; what is the amount of the deficiency; whether it is serious or not; and to deal with the matter in a reasonable manner and in accordance with the general policy of the Department. That general policy is to do nothing to discourage or to diminish voluntary effort; to accept all voluntary assistance as far as it can be given in a satisfactory way; but, on the other hand, to see that the schools provided by voluntary effort are sufficient. The Department is also bound by Act of Parliament, in case there should be a complete failure in voluntary effort, to provide the necessary accommodation; and, as the noble Earl knows, that involves a School Board. It appears to be thought that because it may happen that in certain cases the accommodation which is absolutely necessary cannot be provided, therefore the policy we have set on foot, if it be in any way new, by this Circular

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  means that the Government intend to force Board schools upon those localities, I can tell the noble Earl we have no such policy or intention; but our intention is—and we mean to abide by it—to bring the voluntary schools, not suddenly, but by degrees, up to the full and proper school accommodation which is required in the interests of the children throughout the country. We shall not shrink from that task, although we should be sorry if, in some cases, it should turn out that our requirements necessitate a certain amount of sacrifice on the part of those who keep up these voluntary schools; but if such schools are to be kept up there must be individual sacrifice and individual effort. I do not believe that the voluntary school managers are reluctant to do their duty in the matter. I believe when the matter is brought fairly before the localities and dealt with in a fair spirit, as the noble Earl said, the Church of England and other Religious Bodies will do their duty. But why is this to be a question for the Church? It is not a question of the Church of England; it is a question of education; and I say this: if the Church stands in the way of education in this country it will be the worse for the Church. But I do not believe it. I have too much respect for the Church, and for the dignitaries of the Church, to believe that they are not zealous in the cause of education. They wished to proceed on their own lines; but I do not believe for a moment that they would be backward in their efforts. Lot me quote the opinions of two distinguished Prelates in reference to the Circular. The Bishop of London, in April, 1893, said—
  "This is an emergency which has come upon us suddenly in consequence of the demand of the Education Department—a just demand, a righteous demand, I must call it."
  The Bishop of Rochester, in June, 1893, said—
  "I am not one of those who regard the principle of the recent Government demand as a wrong one. If we are to go on receiving grants for our schools it seems fair and right in principle—though the principle may be here and there applied in a harsh, unreasonable sort of way, suggesting more red tape than statesmanship—fair and right that we should be compelled to meet modern requirements in the arrangements of our school fabrics."
  The right rev. Prelate is not quite so afraid of modern requirements as the
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  noble Earl, and I think his zeal for education exceeds that of the noble Earl. And, for my own part, I would rather share the opinions of the right rev. Prelate than those of the noble Earl, who has himself been Vice President of the Education Department, for a speech more unfavourable to education than his, and more deprecatory of what is necessary for education, it has never been my misfortune to hear. Again, the Committee of the London Diocesan Board of Education—a very competent Body, and who, I am sure, gave a conscientious opinion —in April, 1893, reported as follows:—
  "That Church schools are passing through a serious crisis in their history cannot be doubted; but it is extremely encouraging to note that school managers are everywhere putting forth all their energies to meet the increased but reasonable requirements of the Education Department in regard to the sanitation of school buildings, the provision of cloak-room and classroom accommodation, and the more efficient equipment of schools as to staff and teaching appliances."
  That is the spirit, which I am pleased to see, of people who are really zealous for education, and who are not afraid to make sacrifices when called upon to do so. I can only repeat what I said before—that this Circular is a statistical inquiry, and its main object is to obtain information; but it is not a mere statistical inquiry, because it will be followed by some action whenever the Education Department find that the school accommodation is scandalously bad; there the Department will do its duty and interfere at once—for example, suppose the sanitary condition of a school is shown to be altogether faulty. But with regard to walls, larger playgrounds, gymnasiums, and other such matters, the Department will, so far as I have any voice in the matter—and I believe my right hon. Friend quite concurs with me—endeavour to show a little common sense, a certain amount of which is really all that is required. It would be intensely foolish and absurd to at once require all the schools in the country to be brought up to all the points of efficiency laid down in the Circular. It is impossible to stereotype for ever the condition of the schools, for as time goes on further requirements are found to be necessary, and public opinion also requires a number of things which 25 or 30 years ago would not have been deemed necessary. The Department wish—to use a colloquial expres-

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  sion—to bring things up to date. I have not seen the particular speech of my right hon. Friend to which the noble Earl referred. I should wish to see the whole context of the speech, and to what it referred, before giving an opinion upon it; but I will say this on my own account: that I consider it highly desirable that there should be more municipalisation of education. I do not wish to see voluntary schools put an end to. Everyone who has followed the progress of education in this country knows that it would be a vain and useless crusade to endeavour to put an end to the vast masses of voluntary schools in this country with all the support that they enjoy; but, while recognising in the fullest degree that these schools are entitled to perfectly fair treatment, I think it is desirable that there should be more municipalisation of schools and more municipal superintendence of them. We desire to pursue the policy that voluntary schools and Board schools should have that place with regard to education that they deserve, and this Circular applies to both classes of schools alike in carrying on the education of this country. Wherever Board schools do not come up to the requirements they will be called on in exactly the same way as the voluntary schools. In answer to the question of the noble Earl as to further instructions to Inspectors, I would say that no further instructions are required; the Inspectors can give no instructions, for they are given by the Department. Chief Inspector Coward, in commenting on a Report of one of the Inspectors made in 1892, said that the schools in the particular district
  "are often dilapidated and often so badly constructed as to render the arrangement of the classes for instruction difficult and embarrassing. They frequently possess no class-rooms, or, if they do, their small size renders them worse than useless; their lighting is rarely good, and not seldom so defective as to be injurious to the eye-sight, and their ventilation is often radically bad. Cloak-rooms and proper lavatories are in the majority wanting. But with all these defects they are still able to estimate their accommodating capacity at eight square feet of area, a space quite inadequate, and in which the discipline and instruction of a school cannot be maintained well without undue effort and strain. This overcrowding is found in its worst forms in the small class-rooms, which are still unhappily recognised. One shudders at the recollection of numbers of little children crowded together in places with an exhausted and poisonous air and little light. This is of frequent
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  occurrence, and will continue until strenuous measures are taken to abate the evil. In several schools which I visited the state of things in this respect was horrible. The time is fast approaching, if not already come, when all the school accommodation of the country should undergo review."
  These are strong expressions. In the face of such a Report, is the Department to leave the children of a large portion of the inhabitants of this country subject to such conditions as are pointed out by the Inspector? I, for one, would not undertake that responsibility; for our first duty is to the children, and it is an absolute duty imposed upon the Department to see that children who are compelled by law to go to these schools should have proper accommodation, and should be relieved from a state of things which was a disgrace to the country.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Will the noble Earl lay that Report upon the Table?
  THE EAKL OF KIMBERLEY: It is one of the Parliamentary Papers published, and if it were not I would at once lay it on the Table. It is in the Blue Book for 1892, at page 347. The noble Earl asked what are the new requirements made in the Circular as to desks and benches. My answer to that is that there are no new requirements.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in reply, said, that the speech of the noble Earl showed exactly what he had ventured to say, that the aim of the Department was to bring up all existing schools in accordance with the requirements and building rules for new schools. That was a serious-matter, and ought to be done, as the Royal Commission said, with great care. The noble Earl admitted it would be a hardship on the part of the Government to force these requirements on existing schools—that it ought to be done with due consideration, with common sense, and only in due time.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I said, not at once; but, of course, the intention of the Department is to bring the schools up to the proper point.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, that was exactly his own language and the opinion of the Royal Commission. So that when the noble Earl stated he had made one of the most benighted educational speeches ever heard that was really the purport of his own speech. They were, in fact, in entire accord, and

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  he only wished the Vice President were there to concur. Anyone who knew the work thrown upon the noble Earl by the great affairs of India would excuse him from any little slip in educational matters; but it could hardly be expected that the educational interests of the country could be properly attended to in spare moments snatched from the administration of the Indian Empire. It was impossible for him to do justice to educational matters by occasionally looking in at the Department.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I said nothing about looking in at the Department in spare moments. I said that no change had been made in the practice of the Department, which was for details to be left to the Vice President, while upon important matters the Lord President was consulted.
  THE EAKL OF HARROWBYsaid, in one case £350 had been expended on sanitary improvements in a, school, in order to bring it up to the requirements of the Department; and they were now within two or three years called upon to make alterations which would involve a further cost of about £200. That was pushing the matter further than was cither wise or right. He thanked the noble Earl for answering his questions, and for the assurance that School Boards would not be set up in case the requirements wore not complied with.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I must correct the noble Earl. I said nothing of the kind. What I said was that in cases of sanitary defects and like matters warning would be given; that each case would be dealt with upon its own merits; and that I hoped the Department would deal with the cases with common sense and in a reasonable manner. Of course, it will be necessary, in some cases, to take steps. As to the Return asked for by the noble Earl, I have not the smallest objection to it; but I would point out to him that the information he wants is to be found in a great many places.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, it was for that very reason that it was given in various places that he wanted it in a short Paper for the convenience of the Members of the House.
  Motion agreed to.

  MARKING OF FOREIGN MEAT, &c.
  Report from the Select Committee (with the Proceedings of the Committee) made, and to be printed: Minutes of Evidence, together with an Appendix, laid upon the Table, and to be delivered out. (No. 212.)

  CANAL RATES, TOLLS, AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  Report from the Select Committee, that the Canal Rates, Tolls, and Charges Provisional Order (Leeds and Liverpool Canal) Bill, the Canal Bates, Tolls, and Charges Provisional Order (Navigation of the Rivers Aire and Calder) Bill, the Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (Grand Junction Canal) Rill, and the Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (Warwick and Birmingham Canal) Bill ought to be allowed to proceed.
  And that the Canal Tolls and Charges Provisional Order (Birmingham Canal Navigations) Bill ought not to be allowed to proceed.
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  STATUTE LAW RBVISION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 203.)
  Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to the Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision Bills of the present Session.
  IMPROVEMENT OF LAND (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 184.)
  Amendment reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
  TRUSTEE (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.] (No. 205.)
  House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Joint Committee made: Standing Committee negatived: The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.
  COPYHOLD (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.]—(No. 206.)
  House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Joint Committee made: Standing Committee negatived: The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.

  CONVEYANCE OF MAILS BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed: and to be read 2a on Monday next: (The Lord Playfair). (No. 213.)
  House adjourned at five minutes past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Twelve o'clock.