MOTION FOR A RETURN. (Hansard, 18 July 1893)

§ THE EARL OF HARROWBY
called attention to the action of the Education Department in regard to a final notice respecting fresh school accommodation at Eastbourne; and moved for— A Return of all cases in which final notices have been issued to localities since 1st September, 1892, to supply deficiencies in school accommodation, stating the time which was given in each case for the meeting of such deficiency, in default of which a School Board would be set up by the Education Department. He said, he had no personal connection with Eastbourne, and he brought forward the subject because there was a possibility of a great wrong being done in this enterprising and rising locality, which had shown great zeal in the cause of education. He was afraid, from the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government, that they were inclined to act hastily and harshly towards those who were trying, in good earnest and truth, to supply the deficient school accommodation in that place. He was sorry the Lord President had not more time to spare from the great affairs of India to give to these educational matters, for he would, no doubt, act up to the spirit of Mr. Forster's Bill, and in harmony with all the statements of the Government of that day, of which he was a Member. What was the law on the subject? The law required that in ordinary cases of deficient school accommodation the Department, having satisfied itself of the extent of the deficiency, should order the locality within a certain period to make it up; and if, at the end of the period named in the final notice, that were not done, or were not 1805 in course of being provided with due despatch, the Department would then cause a School Board to be set up. The Town Council or the ratepayers had at any time the right to demand a School Board; and the fact that no such demand had been made showed that a School Board -was not desired by the people of a locality. Six months was the period usually given for the supply of new school accommodation; and if, at the end of that period, due preparations for the supply had been made the order for a School Board was not issued. At Eastbourne, early last year, the Town Council informed the managers of the voluntary schools that, owing to the rapid increase of the population, about 800 extra school places were required. The managers at once initiated a provisional scheme for 1,000 places; great doubts, however, were raised as to the actual extent of the deficiency, some saying the deficiency was less, and some greater: the ordinary rule of l-6th of the population not applying to a watering-place, and it being very difficult to ascertain what was the permanent population. In April, 1892, Her Majesty's Inspector thought that 1,200 additional places were needed. This uncertainty, of course, much hampered the managers in their efforts; but it appeared that the autumn months were busily spent holding meetings, getting together large funds, and organising a Schools Extension Committee. In January, 1893, the Department issued a formal notice that 1,450 places were wanted. That, of course, was a great shock to the managers of the existing schools; but they were not afraid of it, and they at once, in January, demanded a public inquiry in order to make out whether this increased demand was supported by the facts of the case on the spot. After this a delay occurred until April 20, when the inquiry began; again, another delay occurred after the inquiry was closed, and for seven weeks the managers had to wait for the result of the inquiry. He was not blaming the Department for that delay, for it might have been necessary; but the point he wished to press was that this delay from January to June in knowing what school places would really be required, whether 800, 1,250, or 1,450, was undoubtedly a great hindrance to the volunteers in proceeding 1806 with their scheme, getting public subscriptions, and obtaining sites. At last, on June 8, notice was given that 1,311 additional seats were required, instead of 1,450 previously demanded, thus showing that the Department had demanded 139 seats more than, after full inquiry, could be proved needed. This long period of delay had, of course, largely prevented the Schools Extension Committee from getting on with the work, owing to the uncertainty of the requirements to be met; what, therefore, was everyone's astonishment when, on June 22, a final notice was issued by the Department, giving, instead of the usual six months, only one month within which was to be made the provision of the 1,311 extra seats. This was a case of great local hardship, and if it was a specimen of what was going on in other parts of the country the attention of Parliament ought to be directed to the question. While waiting for the decision of the Department, the voluntary school managers at Eastbourne had collected nearly £6,000 for the provision of extra school accommodation, and that sum would have been sufficient for about 1,000 extra seats. Since that notice had been issued, the Schools Inquiry Committee had informed the Department that they had plans ready, provisionally approved by the Department, for three schools for about 492 each—more than sufficient; that two sites were given; that they expected to secure the third; that they wished leave given at once to begin building; that their treasurer certified that they had nearly £7,000 in hand out of the £8,000 required by the June decision, and that more money was coming in. He thought that the result of voluntary effort at Eastbourne had been wonderful, and he was certain that Mr. Forster would have been the first man to welcome such splendid zeal. Why should not the Department say—"Eastbourne is prepared to meet the deficiency, and we will wait a reasonable time, as has been the ordinary practice in such cases?" Then, if the deficiency was not met, they could order a School Board at any time. This was a case of genuine hardship, and if the noble Earl opposite had had time to consider and weigh the matter he would never have set such an unfortunate precedent; and surely he would not allow so great an in- 1807 justice to be done to the Eastbourne ratepayer, but would see that they had done their duty so far and were proceeding to supply the deficiency with due despatch. In taking that view he would be following the best precedents get by the various Governments of both sides by whom the Education Department had been administered. He moved for the Return mentioned in his notice.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
My Lords, I rather demur to the statement that there has been some great hardship inflicted in this case. Had that been so, I should greatly regret it. This question has been under consideration for a very long time, and, in the first instance, those who are responsible for the school accommodation at Eastbourne made a most extraordinary miscalculation. The Department came to the conclusion that a larger number of seats than 1,000 was necessary, and they ordered accommodation for 1,450. Then a public inquiry was demanded, and the result of the public inquiry which was held was that accommodation to the extent of 1,311 seats was found to be necessary. The noble Earl must remember that the notice given is not a notice to supply the required accommodation within one month. That would obviously be preposterous, and all that will have to be shown is that the accommodation is in the course of being supplied. That means that a bonâ fide effort which is likely to result in supplying the required school accommodation is being made. Giving a rather shorter period has the salutary effect of quickening their proceedings, and I am happy to say that the latest information we have received is that a considerable sum has been raised. I am told that it is as much now as £7,000, and that sites have been procured. That is a satisfactory result from the point of view of all parties. In the strictest interpretation of the Act of Parliament the Education Department has no power to order a School Board if 1808 it is shown that the accommodation is in the course of being supplied. I think the Department has very fairly exercised its own discretion as to the time it would allow, and in not giving the entire six months' notice which would be necessary supposing there had been no opportunity for preparation at all. The real object, of course, is to secure proper accommodation for the children, giving, at the same time, a perfectly fair opportunity for those who prefer voluntary schools of providing that accommodation before the final step is taken of authorising a School Board. It gives me great satisfaction to find that the ultimate result of this matter is likely to be satisfactory to all parties concerned. I have not the slightest objection to give the noble Earl the information for which he asks, but I should like to consult him as to the form; and I would, therefore, request him to postpone the Motion, in order that I may suggest to him words which would empower us to give rather fuller information, and then, of course, the Motion will be unopposed.

§ LORD SANDFORD
said, the Education Department had laid down the rule—which was always acted upon while he was there—that six months was to be the term allowed. It might be shorter in one or two cases where the Inspector reported that the volunteers had done, and would do, nothing, and in those instances three or four months had been given; but in no case that he had ever heard of where so much had been done by the volunteers in providing sites, plans, and tenders had so short a time been given. In the circumstances, it would be a great stretch of the power of the Department to order the creation of a School Board.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I wish merely to draw a moral from the discussion upon this matter, which has terminated happily, I understand—that is, the danger of entrusting these enormous powers to a Public Department. Most despotic powers have been entrusted to the Education Department, and as long as they are in the hands of men like Mr. Forster or my noble Friend the Earl of Harrowby the effect of them is not felt. If they were really in the hands of the noble Earl opposite, and if he would only treat Church people as he treats Hindoos and 1809 Mussulmen, there would be no discontent at the present moment. The noble Earl knows very well that if he treated Mussulmen as he is now treating Church people there would be bloodshed in India before very long. But the powers of the Department have fallen into the hands of a Vice President with a strong antipathy to voluntary schools, and he is causing that antipathy to be felt in every part of the country. I only wish to enter my word of warning against the Vice President's policy. The struggle upon which the Government has entered is a struggle on a religious question, and there is no subject on which it is so unwise to trust to a temporary majority as on a religious controversy. Whether it is right or whether it is wrong, the development which the Cowper-Temple Clause has taken has profoundly alarmed Church people all over the country. A large portion of the members of the Church of England, as well as other Bodies, regarded the religious teaching given in Board schools with great antipathy and terror. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong. It is not my business to discuss religious questions or press my own views; but I earnestly wish the Government will consider that there is a really deep—a most intractable and unmanageable—objection to the form which, in the course of time, religious teaching under the Cowper-Temple Clause has taken. The Government are running straight on a very formidable religious controversy which will have the effect of seriously weakening and retarding educational questions all over the country. I am sure they are paralysing the educational machinery, and are entering upon a most dangerous course, simply because they will not believe that there are any considerable number of people in this country who care about the teaching of definite religious doctrine. These people are very numerous. They are very earnest, and they will not readily give in. If the Government insist on meting out to them a measure which they mete out to no other Religious Bodies of any kind at home or abroad—if they choose to disregard and disbelieve in their religious convictions, and ride over them as if they did not exist—I do not think the Church people will suffer in the long run. I believe they will be able to assert their own position and defend themselves. 1810 But what will suffer, and suffer fatally, is the educational progress of the country.

§ LORD PLAYFAIR
said, he had nothing to say on the religious question to which the noble Marquess had alluded, because he thought that was outside the subject to which their Lordships' attention had been called; but he would like to bring one or two facts before the House with reference to the statement that the Department had acted in a despotic manner. There were 4,914children of school age in Eastbourne, and there was a deficiency in the school accommodation of 1,300 places. It was, therefore, the duty of the Department, not to consider whether that deficiency should be supplied by denominational schools or by Board schools, but to see that it was supplied. Nine months elapsed between the time when a letter to that effect was sent by the Department to the school managers and the first notice which was given of the action of the Department. That was a long time to wait, and there was nothing very arbitrary or abrupt in that notice. Five months more were allowed to elapse after that notice was given before further action was taken—until the final notice of January, and then he admitted that the people connected with the voluntary schools at Eastbourne showed great activity; but it was only that morning that a letter arrived informing the Department that sites had been secured and subscriptions obtained to supply the necessary places. The noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) had spoken of the delay by the Department; but there had been no time to answer the letter of that morning. It was gratifying that at last the pressure that had been put upon the town had been successful, and that Eastbourne would no longer rank as a town in which a large number of children, amounting to one-fourth of the whole, had no means of obtaining school accommodation.

§ THE EARL OF HARROWBY
said, he was obliged for what the Lord President had said about the Return, as to the length of time given in final notices by the present Government, the wording of which he hoped to be able to arrange with the noble Earl; and he would therefore postpone his Motion to a later day. He understood from the Lord President's reply that when Saturday, the 1811 fatal day of the closing of the month of the final notice, arrived, that Eastbourne would receive a soothing letter from the Department, praising them for their exertions in providing the accommodation required, and saying that as they were proceeding with due despatch, a School Board would not be ordered.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
The Department has not, of course, had time to consider the letter; but, as far as I gather, that will be the result.