§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYmoved for a copy of the Charge of Mr. Justice Gibson to the Grand Jury of Clare at the recent Assizes as taken by the official note-taker as alluded to by the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Earl SPENCER)My Lords, as far as Her Majesty's Government's opinion goes, we primâ facie have no objection to printing and giving the Return the noble Marquess has asked for; but the Irish Government desire to consult certain precedents, and therefore they will be glad if he will not press for it to-night. I hope in a day or two, say on Thursday, to be able to give a more definite answer.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYDo I understand from the noble Earl that on Thursday he will lay the Paper for which I ask on the Table of the House?
§ EARL SPENCERI cannot promise definitely.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYsaid, he thought the answer given by the noble Earl was anything but satisfactory. He entirely acquitted the noble Earl of any blame, but he could not say the same as to the Chief Secretary. He could not understand, after the Chief Secretary's statement in the House of Commons, why a copy of the Notes could not be at once placed upon the Table of the House. He desired to be placed in possession as soon as possible of the report of the official note-taker, inasmuch as Mr. Justice Gibson's Charge was one of the most extraordinary which had been delivered for many years past in any county. Acting with the concealment which had been the quality of the Government for a long time past, a discussion on this Charge had been closured in the House of Commons at 5 o'clock the other afternoon, at the moment the late Solicitor General, who was fully 1262 qualified to deal with the state of County Clare, rose to discuss the Judge's Charge. He was glad no such action could take place in their Lordships' House; and as the matter had been closured in the other House, he proposed to go even more fully into it than he had intended. For that purpose he desired to have an authentic version of the learned Judge's Charge at the Assizes, and under those circumstances he must press for a copy of the Official Note. In the past he had been taken to task by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for trusting to newspaper reports.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL)My Lords, I have no doubt the noble Marquess wishes to have the learned Judge's Charge for a purpose which is quite unobjectionable; but if this Motion be acceded to, it may be followed by others from a desire to attack learned Judges, a course not without precedent. I think, therefore, although no doubt the noble Marquess merely desires to be able to refer to an authentic Report, a little inquiry is needed in order to see whether it would not be making a dangerous precedent.
§ LORD SHANDsaid, that when in the other House a newspaper report was referred to it was stated to be inaccurate, and that the Government were in possession of a correct Report. If the noble Earl would accept the newspaper reports, well and good; but if the moment they were referred to the answer was to be given that the Government had a more authentic Report, and passages were to be read from it, the noble Marquess would be placed in a difficult position. The noble Marquess had avowed the object of his Motion, and under those circumstances he would like to know whether, in the absence of the Official Note, a newspaper report would be received?
§ THE DUKE OF RUTLANDsaid, the fears of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack as to the use which might possibly be made hereafter of learned Judges' Charges should not be taken into consideration in this instance. In the House of Commons a Member making a charge against a Judge was invariably stopped by the Speaker, and told that he must proceed by an Address to the Crown, and the same rule, he believed, obtained in their Lordships' House. No possible future inconvenience, there- 1263 fore, could arise from this application being acceded to.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI would only wish to make this protest: that if the noble Earl does not produce the Government version, he cannot, whatever quotations are made on this side of the House, appeal to the document in his pocket.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI apprehend the simple point of the matter is the precedent. I can assure the noble Marquess there is no indisposition on our part to produce the document he asks for; but I think my noble Friend the Marquess of Salisbury would desire us to be quite certain before doing so that we are not doing anything unusual. That is the only reason why my noble Friend, Earl Spencer, wishes for a little time.
§ LORD ASHBOURNEPerhaps the noble Earl will say which of the newspaper reports, in his opinion, substantially represents that learned Judge's Charge?
§ EARL SPENCERI am sure I cannot answer the noble and learned Lord's question.
§ Consideration of Motion adjourned.