Lords Sitting of 27 February 1893

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
SAT FIRST.
Lord Northbourne, after the death of his father.
PUBLIC AUTHORITIES PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]—(No. 6.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I have had a conversation with my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, and I think it will be more convenient to leave out the sub-section of Clause 1 relating to venue, leaving the venue to be settled by the ordinary operation of the law, as in every other case.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, I think there is no absolute necessity for this sub-section of the clause, in as much as there is sufficient power under the provisions of the Judicature Act for satisfactorily dealing with the case.
  Amendment made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of the Amendment to be received To-morrow.

SALE OF GOODS BILL [H.L.]—(No. 8.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, as this Bill has been already through the Standing Committee, I beg to move that the Standing Committee be negatived.
  Motion agreed to.

STATUTE LAW REVISION (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.]—(No. 9.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is one of the ordinary Bills
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  for the revision of the Statute Law. It does not call for special remark, and I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, during the last Session of Parliament a Joint Committee of both Houses was appointed to consider the subject of Statute Law Revision, and they made a Report in which they recommended that in future years a Joint Committee of both Houses should always be appointed for the purpose of dealing with these Statute Law Revision Bills, as that was likely to be the best means of securing a thorough examination of them, and the certainty that before being passed they would be put into proper shape.
  Moved to resolve,
  "That it is desirable that all Statute Law Revision Bills of the present Session be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to.
  Ordered, That a message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution, and desire their concurrence.

ARMY RATIONS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF STRAFFORDasked the Under Secretary of State for War whether the system advocated between the years 1888 and 1890 by Colonel C.J. Burnett, A.A.G, and Brigade Surgeon Lieutenant-Colonel Notter, of messing in the Army, had been tried at Aldershot and other military centres; whether such changes had been approved of by the various Military Authorities and the rank and file of the Army; and whether any official Report on the subject had been or could be presented to Parliament for the information of the public? He said, he need scarcely remind the Under Secretary of State for War and their Lordships who took an interest in Army matters that during the last few years among the grievances in the interior economy of the Army the amount of rations enjoyed by the private soldier had been the subject of discussion in the

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  Press and elsewhere. It had been stated that the llb. of bread per day and the 1¾lb. of meat, coupled with the 3d. per day stoppage for groceries and other items, was not sufficient to give the private soldier a good dinner, much less to provide him with something for his supper and for breakfast the following morning. About three years ago two very efficient officers—Colonel Burnett (at present Assistant Adjutant General at Aldershot) and Brigade Surgeon Lieutenant-Colonel Notter—had been led to the conclusion that the fault rested not so much with the quantity of rations provided as with the way in which they were cooked; and, after making due inquiry and many experiments, they found that the amount of rations was ample, providing the cooking was good, and they had established three excellent kitchens at Aldershot Camp. With the assistance of Major Ferguson and Sergeant-Major Thompson (the Sergeant Cook) they had elaborated a system by which the three great essentials of good cooking, whether in private houses or in barracks—punctuality, efficiency, and economy—had been obtained. He believed the Under Secretary of State would be able to tell their Lordships that the private soldier now enjoyed sufficient for breakfast, a good dinner, and enough for his supper; and he therefore asked whether the noble Lord was in a position to give the House and the public any information on the subject; and whether the statements in the Press were correct, that this new system had been tried with advantage at Aldershot and other military centres?
  LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I must thank my noble Friend for having at my request postponed his question from last Friday to suit my personal convenience. I will, first of all, reply categorically to the three questions which are embodied in the notice of my noble Friend. A system of experimental messing, growing out of Colonel Burnett's proposals, has been taught at the School of Cookery at Aldershot during the last two years. It is in operation among the troops there, and is being extended throughout the troops at home, as far as it is found applicable at different stations. The changes have been approved by the authorities and by the soldiers. No special Report has been
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  presented to Parliament, nor does there appear at this stage any necessity to do so. Though it does not appear necessary to present a Report to Parliament, I might, perhaps, with your permission, and without entering into unnecessary detail, give a brief sketch of the changes that have taken place. It will interest my noble Friend, who, I am glad, has put his notice on the Paper, and perhaps your Lordships, who are generally interested in the welfare of the private soldier, and I hope also it may create some interest outside. It may be within the recollection of some that before the days of Lord Cardwell at the War Office the pay of the private soldier was 1s. 3d. a day; of this he paid 4½d. for rations supplied by the Government. He therefore had 10½d. to spend, but of this 10½d. there were stoppages to the amount of 3½d. for messing and washing, so that he really had 7d. a day. When Lord Card-well was Secretary of State in 1873 he gave a free ration of ¾1b. of meat and 1lb. of bread, but reduced the pay to 1s., and of this 3d. was stopped for messing—i.e., for groceries, &c, so that the soldier under this plan had 9d. instead of 7d. per diem. Many years later, about 1888 or 1889, the question of soldiers' food again excited attention, it being the opinion of some that the ration of ¾1b. of meat for dinner was insufficient. Mr. Stanhope authorised a Committee, composed of military men, one or two of whom were in the House of Commons, to consider the whole subject. The result of the deliberations of that Committee was the opinion that if proper attention was paid to economy the actual supply of bread and meat, supplemented by the articles procured by stoppages, was sufficient. The case merely resolves into this — it is a question of housekeeping — whether there is to be good housekeeping for the soldier, or, as in former days, no housekeeping at all. Two simple domestic kitchen utensils — namely, the stock-pot and the dripping-pan, were then introduced into the military kitchen, which had hitherto been conspicuous by their absence. Under the energetic influence of Sir E. Wood, and the keen intelligence and spirit of one of his Assistant Adjutant Generals, Colonel Burnett, the School of Cookery at Aldershot exhibited signs of a new vigour and of real competency for

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  the work for which it was first instituted. The School of Cookery now has a sergeant-major as senior non-commissioned officer and instructor, and he has three non-commissioned officers as assistants. There are educated at the school per annum 81 non-commissioned officers of the Regular Army, and 37 of the permanent staff of the Militia. The length of the course is four months for the Regulars and three months for the Militia; and, further, after the men return to their respective regiments they undergo an additional probation of three mouths before they receive their certificates as master cooks. The Director General of the Army Medical Department is so impressed with the value of the system that he has applied to send an officer and non-commissioned officer of the Army Medical Department as an experiment to see whether any improvement can be made in the food for hospital patients, and, as far as my opinion can be worth anything, I venture to think a hospital cookery class might be established with very great advantage. And now for the cooking itself. After a series of experiments Sir E. Wood drew up a Memorandum for the guidance of commanding officers of battalion corps and companies, and all whom it might concern. The object set forth in the Memorandum is economy in the messing of the soldier, and, by economy, to vary and increase his scale of diet, and improvement in the cooking of the rations. By the aid of the stock-pot the bones, which have been hitherto thrown away, are boiled for a period not exceeding three days, care being taken to label each net of bones on the day they are put in, and with the addition of peas, lentils, &c, procurable at a small cost, excellent soup is obtainable. Then, my Lords, all skimmings are removed from meats, stews, dishes which go by the name of "sea-pies," and curries, those trimmings are turned into dripping, and to that really excellent and rich gravies are added which make the food more palatable. When the whole of the stock is not required for soup and gravies, which under proper management it never is, it is used in place of water for stews, curries, &c, thereby greatly increasing the nutritious quality of the food, and, in addition, giving it a flavour which would have been wanting under the old methods.
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  The bones, after they have fully performed their work in the stock-pot, are sold at 2s. per cwt., and the money credited to the company. Formerly the bones were thrown away without ever being subjected to the stock-pot. Soup can be served with the dinners, or free in the evening, from the recreation-room, or some other battalion institution. The process now in practice of boning the meat has had the effect of better cooking and greater economy. But while the bones perform a considerable part in the cooking for the soldiers the dripping also takes an important place. I am, sorry, my Lords, to have to enter into these details, but economy is really the essence of the question. This dripping, which was formerly thrown away, is now economised with the greatest advantage. The dripping-pan, of course, provides the fatty element necessary for good pies and puddings and other cooking purposes, and while the removal of this fatty matter tends to economy it also renders the food more sightly and palatable. I mentioned just now that bones formerly thrown away are now, after being used, sold at 2s. per cwt., which would no doubt come to a considerable sum per battalion. The value of the dripping at 4d. per 11b. in a battalion of 800 men may be estimated at £160 per annum, while if you calculate for the whole Home Army it is estimated that the saving on the dripping alone would be £20,000. Now, I wish to add that this money so saved is not, as the term goes, sweated out of the soldier, but goes back to him in improved and more varied diet, and thereby makes his life more comfortable. The treatment of the bread ration, which was formerly not entirely satisfactory, has also been attended to. This really appears to have been more a matter of issue than anything else. Formerly issued overnight, the bread became dry and hard; now I understand that the regulation is that it should be issued twice a day, early in the morning and just before dinner, so that the men do not have hard bread for their tea. Another advantage of this plan is that it saves the soldier's pocket, for he used often to buy bread for tea as the rations had become uneatable. The soldier now saves the money he formerly spent for that purpose: it is carefully

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  saved for him for his breakfast. What money is now saved is laid out in what are called extras. In addition to the Government rations of bread and meat the soldier is put under a stoppage for messing or groceries. That, of course, has nothing to do with the Government; it is a matter of regimental arrangement. At one time, I believe, they amounted to 5d. a day, never less than 3d. Now, by Sir E. Wood's Memorandum, 3d. is the recognised sum. Under the head of groceries in that Memorandum came 37 different articles, such as bacon, tea, coffee, eggs, vegetables, herbs, oatmeal, and a variety of things which I need not repeat to your Lordships. These should be sold to the soldier from the canteen at cost price. As consumption proceeds, the debits or credits are entered up daily in the soldier's grocery books by the colour-sergeant, and signed by the officer commanding the Company. At the risk of detaining your Lordships I should just like to compare the daily bill of fare of the soldier in former days with that provided under the suggestions in Sir E. Wood's Memorandum. In most cases for breakfast there used to be only bread and a bowl of tea; what was by courtesy called dinner consisted of meat and potatoes, the appetising variety being that one day it was a case of baked meat and roast potatoes, the next day roast meat and baked potatoes. The meal at tea time was about as tempting as the breakfast. The circumstances now are, indeed, greatly changed. In going through the School of Cookery I have had the opportunity of seeing the method pursued with the rations from the commencement until they are finally served out to the men. Here is a diet sheet giving the meals of the West Yorkshire Regiment, 1st Battalion, now stationed at Aldershot, and I will just read from it the diet of one or two of the Companies. A Company: Breakfast—tea, bread, porridge; dinner—brown currie stew, potatoes, and rice date pudding; tea—tea, brawn, bread. The diet of the "C" Company is:—Breakfast—tea, bread, cheese; dinner—brown stew and potatoes, plain raisin pudding; tea—tea, dripping, bread. Another is:—Breakfast—tea, bread and butter or dripping; dinner—Irish stew, potatoes, and pudding; tea—tea, brawn and bread. That shows a considerable variety in the bill
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  of fare for one day, Saturday, and of course the various items are interchangeable day by day. I have had the pleasure of going over this School of Cookery. It was most interesting. I can testify to the excellence of some of the provisions, for I tasted some. The soup I considered excellent, and the cooking generally favourably impressed me. I saw all the various processes, from the time the meat was taken from the cooking apparatus until it was served out in the barrack-room; and to show that Saturday's meal was nothing out of the common, I may state that I quote from a regimental return which was made out in the orderly-room for the previous week and posted up in the cook-house. I visited more than one regimental kitchen. I understand that the new system gives great satisfaction to the men. A noble and gallant Lord who sits in this House (Lord Beaumont) commands a distinguished regiment, the 20th Hussars, now at Aldershot. Perhaps, if he is in his place, he may feel inclined to give us the results of his experience; but I may say when I showed him my noble Friend's question the other day he spoke highly of the system, and said it was in operation in his regiment. I see other noble and gallant Lords present, and I think it would be of advantage if they would favour us with their views upon the subject. Sir Evelyn Wood is so impressed with the success of the system that he contemplates starting a class for soldiers' wives, with the view of improving the house-keeping arrangements of the married soldiers, and enabling them to make as much out of the ration money as they can. The fame and success of the School of Cookery is not limited to the Army. In May, 1892, the Committee of the Universal School of Cookery and Food Association asked for the assistance of the staff of the School of Cookery at their Exhibition in Baker Street. His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief sanctioned the proposal. The men gained two silver medals, the bronze medal, and five diplomas. Last winter Baroness Burdett-Coutts, who is interested in the matter, asked Sir Evelyn Wood if those connected with our school might lecture and demonstrate to the pupils at the Westminster Technical Institute. Sir E. Wood agreed, and as their services

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  have been again asked for it is only fair to suppose that their efforts were successful. In camp, when the men are under canvas, an extra allowance is given of a quarter of a pound of meat to provide a meat breakfast, and on active service an extra half pound and a quarter of a pound of bread. Of course, it it easy for a critic to say that this is all very fine on paper; but I beg to assure your Lordships that not only is it capable of being carried out, but it is being carried out in many places in the way I have demon-started, and commanding officers, I am told, are anxious to carry it out. It may be said that this can be done at Aldershot but nowhere else. But the system was in operation at Mullingar in the battalion under Colonel Burnett's command, and it succeeded there. It was said it might be done in a place like Mullingar, where provisions are cheap, but could never be done at Aldershot. It has been done at Aldershot, and I hope it will be found practicable to use the system wherever local facilities are studied and will permit. No doubt circumstances will be found to differ in different localities; but it appears to be mainly a question of supervision, and, of course, where supervision is not exercised, or in fact wherever duty is not properly performed, nothing will succeed. There is no doubt that a vast improvement has been effected in the messing of the private soldier: money is being saved to him, and no extra expense caused to the State. Had it been thought advisable to add to the present three-quarters another quarter of a pound of meat an increased cost of about £230,000 per annum would have been incurred. I venture to think that the improved state of things will stimulate recruiting for the Army, and I believe that opinion to be held by many officers in high positions. As your Lordships are aware, that distinguished officer, Sir E. Wood, commands at Aldershot, and it is under his authority, and owing to his energy and constant thought for the welfare of the soldiers under his command, that first the experiments, and then the system, have been carried out. But I may add that to Colonel Burnett, his Assistant Adjutant General, high praise is due for the way in which the scheme in detail has been carried out, and for the enthusiastic spirit, combined with tact and perseverance, by which he has over-
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  come difficulties as they presented themselves. I venture to submit that to both these distinguished officers, the chief and subordinate, gratitude is due from the private soldier and the authorities.

  CHURCH PATRONAGE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law respecting the transfer and exercise of church patronage, and the avoidance of benefices—Was presented by the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 24.)

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 25.)
  House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.