THE EARL OF DUNRAVENasked whether, in view of the length of time that would probably be occupied in an inquiry into the extent, nature, and probable causes of the depression now or recently prevailing in various branches of agriculture, Her Majesty's Government would institute a separate inquiry into the incidence of Imperial and local taxation on agricultural land? He said, the House was aware that an inquiry was to be made into the present condition and circumstances of agriculture by a Committee of the other branch of the Legislature. As to its advisability he had nothing to say, as he did not wish to enter into controversial topics on the subject. An inquiry of so large a character, embracing as it must do so many matters of controversy, would necessarily occupy a considerable length of time. The Royal Commission presided over by the Duke of Richmond sat for about three years. Judging by the public papers the inquiry was to be "into the extent, nature, and probable causes of the depression now or recently prevailing in agriculture, with the object of recommending the adoption of any remedies that could be found." That would, of 8 course, embrace such questions as the alleged depreciation of gold, bi-mettalism, the importation of food, and everything and anything that anybody might imagine to be a cause of depression. Therefore, it must take a very long time. One peculiarity in the case of Wales in regard to this subject was that, as far as could be judged, a consensus of opinion existed among all classes interested in agriculture that the burden on agricultural land, however fair it might at one time have been, had now become intolerable to the weakening shoulders of that depressed industry. Another peculiarity of this question was that an independent inquiry into the incidence of taxation upon agricultural land could not in any way interfere with an inquiry into the larger question as to the probable causes of the depression generally; and should the result of such an inquiry be to substantiate the alleged injustice of the present great burdens, and to lead to legislation, such legislation could not invalidate any larger legislation that might be recommended by the Committee of the other House. It would, therefore, be advisable that a separate inquiry should be made into this smaller and distinct branch of the whole subject, in order that Parliament might obtain reliable information upon it, and, if necessary, upon the Committee's Report, legislate within a reasonable time. The present condition of agriculture was very grave, and it was of the utmost importance that any legislation which could be devised to help that industry should be carried out without unnecessary delay. This inquiry must occupy a great many Sessions, and the Committee would, of course, have to be re-appointed many times, and he therefore hoped the Government would take the practical step of instituting a separate inquiry into the incidence of taxation and local burdens upon land.
§ LORD RIBBLESDALEMy Lords, I will at once say that this is a very reasonable proposal of my noble Friend's, and I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government have been fully alive to the considerations he has advanced as to the time which must elapse before the Committee can report. But the balance of argument appeared to the Government to be on the side of a single Committee. I take no exception to the sketch my noble 9 Friend has given of the powers of this single Committee. Its powers are to be full, both as to the order and the detail in which they take evidence upon the circumstances of the existing depression, and as to the propriety of the various remedies, be they legislative or administrative, which may be suggested in connection with the evidence they are able to collect. It appeared to the Government that if the course presumably preferred by my noble Friend had been adopted much work would have had to be done twice over, as the remedies the Committee are to discuss can only usefully be discussed side by side with the precise condition of agriculture at this present moment; and I think your Lordships will agree with me that this is especially the case when you are dealing with so sensitive a remedy as the transfer of burdens from one sort of property to another sort of property. Charges upon agricultural land which seem fair enough in good times seem very unfair in bad times. I should be the last man in your Lordships' House to demur from the proposition that the times just now are very bad; but in connection with the incidence of fair taxation it would be hazardous to define what is fair and what is unfair until exact data of the extent of agricultural depression are before us; and I do not see how an inquiry into the incidence of taxation of agricultural land would be useful or even possible without reliable information as to the fall in prices of agricultural products, the fall in rents, the loss of capital engaged, and so on. Indeed, it might be argued that a separate Committee, of the kind suggested by my noble Friend, on incidence of taxation would be as materially hampered by not having this information before them as a Committee of the kind the Government have appointed would be hampered in its discussion of remedies by not having before them the data of incidence of taxation, and not being able to take evidence upon this element in the case. The fact is, the two questions are so closely related that they can hardly be separated. My noble Friend was afraid that the inquiry must take a long time, but I do not think they will be dilatory. I admit there is a great deal of evidence to collect. At the game time the Committee are well aware of the gravity of the issues involved, and if grass is to 10 grow from their deliberations the horse must not be allowed to starve meanwhile. A great mass of information was collected by the Richmond Commission in 1879, to which my noble Friend has referred. That information will certainly not be overlooked by the Committee, and to bring that information up to date should not in the nature of things be so very stupendous a task or take the protracted period my noble Friend indicated. I said just now that the Reference of the Committee enabled them to take their subjects of inquiry in any order they pleased. The question of incidence of taxation is obviously certain to suggest itself to them, and, I may say, to be pressed upon their attention at the outset. Moreover, I conceive it will be quite within their competence to investigate it and report upon it separately, thus giving it a priority over the other matters which will occupy their labours. I hope I have said enough to justify the decision arrived at by the Government after a due consideration of all the surroundings of this important question, which, I repeat, is to leave the whole inquiry in the hands of a single Committee with free and wide powers.