Lords Sitting of 21 February 1893

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
PUBLIC AUTHORITIES PROTECTION BILL. [H.L.]—(No. 6.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, this is a Bill which was introduced by the noble and learned Lord who occupied the Woolsack in the last Parliament, for the purpose of consolidating in one Statute the provisions on this subject which are now scattered over a number of Statutes for giving protection to Public Authorities who may have actions brought against them. The times in reference to notice and other particulars differ in many cases, and it is thought much better they should
  2
  be brought into one uniform system which will be applicable to all cases. The object of the Bill is considered to be very useful, and it passed both Houses and through the Statute Committee during last Parliament. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD ASHBOURNE: As your Lordships have heard from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, this Bill was introduced in the last Parliament by the noble and learned Lord who then occupied the Woolsack, and it seeks to accomplish various reforms which are considered desirable in the matters which are referred to in the title of the Bill. There is one matter which, when the Bill reaches another stage, I will, with your Lordships' permission, call attention to, as it has been allowed to remain in the Bill; that is, that in primâ facie cases the venue shall be local. That is a matter which requires very serious consideration, because your Lordships

  3
  will see at once that if, say, a Resident Magistrate in Ireland had locally to do something which somebody thought he was aggrieved by, and thereupon brought an action, for example, in Kerry, Clare, or Mayo, those would be the last places in which, in the interests of justice and for the purpose of securing an impartial trial, the trial should take place. Therefore, I should desire to reserve, for further consideration at a future stage of the Bill, the question whether it is advisable or not to retain that clause.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The matter to which the noble and learned Lord refers was brought before the House when the measure was under consideration in the last Parliament. Objection was then taken to the subsection relating to the venue. It is provided that a trial shall only take place where the action arises, unless the Judge orders otherwise. But it gives largo powers in that respect. On that occasion the noble and learned Lord who then occupied the Woolsack undertook to meet the objection, and it was thought that it had been sufficiently met by the words at the beginning. The clause has been modified accordingly; but if the noble and learned Lord thinks that does not sufficiently meet the case, I shall be glad to re-consider the matter.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

SALE OF GOODS BILL [H.L.]—(No. 8.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this also is a Bill which passed the Second Reading in this House during the last Parliament. It is a measure which, I believe, will be of great utility for the purpose of codifying the law relating to the sale of goods. It has undergone very great examination and consideration, and may now, I believe, be safely recommended to your Lordships. It differs only from the Bill which passed last Session in this respect: that there were then certain clauses inserted at the instance of my noble and learned Friend Lord Watson, for the purpose of extending the Bill to Scotland. The law of Scotland as to
  4
  the sale of goods differs, in certain particulars, from the law of England. As to almost all the particulars in which the law of the two countries differs, there was a common agreement; and both those who viewed the law from the English side, and those who viewed it from the Scotch side, saw their way to a mode of dealing with the Bill which gave complete satisfaction to the lawyers of both countries. But there were one or two matters in which the Scotch law differed from the English, and in which it was not possible to make the Statute satisfactory to the Scotch Lords. At all events, exception was taken somewhat vehemently in some quarters to the form in which these clauses were drawn. I should be most desirous of extending this Bill to Scotland, and of codifying in one Statute the law relating to so important a subject as the sale of goods, having regard to the law prevailing both in England and in Scotland, but your Lordships will easily understand that I am very anxious not to make this Bill contentious. The only possible chance of passing such a measure into law, a measure it is admitted of extreme utility, is to make it absolutely non-contentious; and whilst I should be thoroughly satisfied to re-introduce the Scotch clauses, if some common agreement could be arrived at among those who represent Scotland as to the form which those clauses should take, I should be unwilling to do so if thereby the Bill was made contentious, because that would mean that all chance of passing it and carrying into effect the object which is intended must be abandoned. I have thought it desirable to make this statement, in order to explain why the Scotch clauses are not found in the Bill at present. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD WATSONsaid, he entirely agreed with the Bill as introduced by the noble and learned Lord. It had been very carefully framed, but he did not think the omission of the Scotch clauses was an improvement in the Bill. It must be obvious that it would be of great importance to mercantile men, as well as to lawyers, that the whole Code relating to these matters should be found within the four corners of one Act. If separate legisla-

  5
  tion were introduced for Scotland about nine-tenths of exactly the same matter would be placed upon the Statute Book as appeared in the English Bill. Differences of opinion existed upon some points, but those points were comparatively trivial, and he thought that before the Bill passed such a fair agreement would be come to on the part of those interested from a Scotch point of view as would remove all fear of endangering the safety of the measure.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

BILLS OF SALE BILL [H.L.]—(No. 7.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is also a measure which passed through the sub-Committee of the Statute Committee during the last Parliament. It is for the purpose of placing the law relating to bills of sale on a more satisfactory footing than it is at present, its present condition being agreed by all to be eminently unsatisfactory. There is only one provision to which I will invite your Lordships' attention now, because it is a matter which has given rise to considerable controversy, and I should not be inclined to insist upon it if it is likely to create any very acute difference of opinion, for I think, apart from that particular question, the Bill will be found to be generally acceptable. That provision which has been now introduced relates to a matter which my noble and learned Friend who preceded me and myself have been very much pressed should be legislated upon. A system has grown up, as your Lordships are no doubt aware, of hiring and purchase, by which goods are supplied by tradesmen upon terms that it is to be a hiring only until they are paid for, when the hiring becomes a sale; so that if any of the hiring instalments remain unpaid a right exists on the part of the tradesman to resume possession of the goods he has supplied. The consequence, of course, is that such furniture in a house, which has nothing to distinguish it from other furniture which is the debtor's own pro-
  6
  perty becomes the property of the tradesman, and when an execution is put in by another creditor, under the impression that he is dealing with his debtor's furniture, he is met by a claim on behalf of the tradesman who has supplied furniture, and who insists that he shall withdraw from possession; and, of course, when part of the furniture has been acquired on this hire and sale system, and part of it is the debtor's own property, it is extremely difficult to ascertain which belongs to the debtor and which has been acquired by him under the hire and sale agreement. Representations have been made to me by traders that great injustice is thus done to them, inasmuch as they are never able to tell whether the furniture or goods in a house is the debtor's own property, or is that of the tradesman who has supplied him. There can be no doubt that this comes to a considerable extent within the mischief against which the law relating to bills of sale is intended to strike, because while the possession and apparent ownership is in one person the property is really in another. Of course, I do not mean to say that this is entirely on all fours with the cases intended to be provided for by the Bills of Sale Act. I have now stated to your Lordships the case for legislation on the subject. But then, on the other hand, it is represented that this system of hire and sale has so far become in common use that it would be a great blow to the system if you were to compel registration of the transactions by which these arrangements are carried out; that people who have bought on the hire and sale system would not like registration, and that they would cease to enter into these agreements if a tradesman was compelled to effect such registration so as not to run the risk of having his goods taken in case of an execution against or of the bankruptcy of the hirer. That, my Lords, is the case on the one side and on the other. I have thought it well to introduce into the Bill a provision meeting the case; but, as I have said, it would certainly not be expedient to risk the passing of the Bill on account of acute controversy on a matter of that description. If it appears that is likely to be the effect of retaining it in the Bill I am afraid that matter must be left for legislation on another occasion, and the Bill must be confined to the mere consolida-

  7
  tion with some improvements of existing law on the subject.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor).
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, there is no doubt that this Bill which has been introduced by the noble and learned Lord will be a very useful measure. As to the particular case to which he has, I think, rightly directed your Lordships' special attention, that is a matter as to which there is considerable difference of opinion, and as to which it would be well for us to be quite sure we are legislating in consonance with the opinions of those interested in it. Therefore, I hope the noble and learned Lord will allow some little time to elapse before the Committee stage of the Bill, in order that we may know what is likely to be considered by them best to be done in the matter.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

AGRICULTURAL INQUIRY.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENasked whether, in view of the length of time that would probably be occupied in an inquiry into the extent, nature, and probable causes of the depression now or recently prevailing in various branches of agriculture, Her Majesty's Government would institute a separate inquiry into the incidence of Imperial and local taxation on agricultural land? He said, the House was aware that an inquiry was to be made into the present condition and circumstances of agriculture by a Committee of the other branch of the Legislature. As to its advisability he had nothing to say, as he did not wish to enter into controversial topics on the subject. An inquiry of so large a character, embracing as it must do so many matters of controversy, would necessarily occupy a considerable length of time. The Royal Commission presided over by the Duke of Richmond sat for about three years. Judging by the public papers the inquiry was to be "into the extent, nature, and probable causes of the depression now or recently prevailing in agriculture, with the object of recommending the adoption of any remedies that could be found." That would, of
  8
  course, embrace such questions as the alleged depreciation of gold, bi-mettalism, the importation of food, and everything and anything that anybody might imagine to be a cause of depression. Therefore, it must take a very long time. One peculiarity in the case of Wales in regard to this subject was that, as far as could be judged, a consensus of opinion existed among all classes interested in agriculture that the burden on agricultural land, however fair it might at one time have been, had now become intolerable to the weakening shoulders of that depressed industry. Another peculiarity of this question was that an independent inquiry into the incidence of taxation upon agricultural land could not in any way interfere with an inquiry into the larger question as to the probable causes of the depression generally; and should the result of such an inquiry be to substantiate the alleged injustice of the present great burdens, and to lead to legislation, such legislation could not invalidate any larger legislation that might be recommended by the Committee of the other House. It would, therefore, be advisable that a separate inquiry should be made into this smaller and distinct branch of the whole subject, in order that Parliament might obtain reliable information upon it, and, if necessary, upon the Committee's Report, legislate within a reasonable time. The present condition of agriculture was very grave, and it was of the utmost importance that any legislation which could be devised to help that industry should be carried out without unnecessary delay. This inquiry must occupy a great many Sessions, and the Committee would, of course, have to be re-appointed many times, and he therefore hoped the Government would take the practical step of instituting a separate inquiry into the incidence of taxation and local burdens upon land.
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, I will at once say that this is a very reasonable proposal of my noble Friend's, and I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government have been fully alive to the considerations he has advanced as to the time which must elapse before the Committee can report. But the balance of argument appeared to the Government to be on the side of a single Committee. I take no exception to the sketch my noble

  9
  Friend has given of the powers of this single Committee. Its powers are to be full, both as to the order and the detail in which they take evidence upon the circumstances of the existing depression, and as to the propriety of the various remedies, be they legislative or administrative, which may be suggested in connection with the evidence they are able to collect. It appeared to the Government that if the course presumably preferred by my noble Friend had been adopted much work would have had to be done twice over, as the remedies the Committee are to discuss can only usefully be discussed side by side with the precise condition of agriculture at this present moment; and I think your Lordships will agree with me that this is especially the case when you are dealing with so sensitive a remedy as the transfer of burdens from one sort of property to another sort of property. Charges upon agricultural land which seem fair enough in good times seem very unfair in bad times. I should be the last man in your Lordships' House to demur from the proposition that the times just now are very bad; but in connection with the incidence of fair taxation it would be hazardous to define what is fair and what is unfair until exact data of the extent of agricultural depression are before us; and I do not see how an inquiry into the incidence of taxation of agricultural land would be useful or even possible without reliable information as to the fall in prices of agricultural products, the fall in rents, the loss of capital engaged, and so on. Indeed, it might be argued that a separate Committee, of the kind suggested by my noble Friend, on incidence of taxation would be as materially hampered by not having this information before them as a Committee of the kind the Government have appointed would be hampered in its discussion of remedies by not having before them the data of incidence of taxation, and not being able to take evidence upon this element in the case. The fact is, the two questions are so closely related that they can hardly be separated. My noble Friend was afraid that the inquiry must take a long time, but I do not think they will be dilatory. I admit there is a great deal of evidence to collect. At the game time the Committee are well aware of the gravity of the issues involved, and if grass is to
  10
  grow from their deliberations the horse must not be allowed to starve meanwhile. A great mass of information was collected by the Richmond Commission in 1879, to which my noble Friend has referred. That information will certainly not be overlooked by the Committee, and to bring that information up to date should not in the nature of things be so very stupendous a task or take the protracted period my noble Friend indicated. I said just now that the Reference of the Committee enabled them to take their subjects of inquiry in any order they pleased. The question of incidence of taxation is obviously certain to suggest itself to them, and, I may say, to be pressed upon their attention at the outset. Moreover, I conceive it will be quite within their competence to investigate it and report upon it separately, thus giving it a priority over the other matters which will occupy their labours. I hope I have said enough to justify the decision arrived at by the Government after a due consideration of all the surroundings of this important question, which, I repeat, is to leave the whole inquiry in the hands of a single Committee with free and wide powers.

  VOLUNTARY CONVEYANCES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to the avoidance of voluntary conveyances—Was presented by the Lord Macnaghten; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 20.)
  House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.