Lords Sitting of 10 February 1893

Preamble
The Earl of Portsmouth—Took the Oath.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—VICE PRESIDENT'S CIRCULAR.
*LORD NORTONasked the Lord President of the Council whether the Vice President's Circular preparatory to more stringent requirements of school space was meant to apply retrospectively; and whether his proposal of free instruction, at public expense, in science, art, literature, and languages, had Government authority; and whether there was any intention of bringing together the various provisions for education now dispersed through four Departments? He said this question divided itself into three: The first related to a Circular, which had lately, emanated from the Education Department, making inquiries which seemed to indicate an intention of imposing much severer conditions for the receipt of grants upon all the schools in the Unites Kingdom relative to sites and size of school buildings, playgrounds, and a great many other things. By the Code of 1890 a somewhat similar proposal was made in general terms; that schools, in order to receive grants, should satisfy the Department as to their healthiness generally; but attached to that Code was a condition that the new and larger requirements should attach to new schools only, or that the terms relating to building grants should be so far relaxed that if those new requirements were made to apply to old schools, special aid should be given by the Department to enable them to be met. But this Circular did no such distinction; it made new and old schools subject to requirements without any relaxation of the rule as to building grants. If those old schools, Which were established by private munificence in accordance with the contemporary requirements or the Department and approved by the Department, were to have new requirements imposed upon them which they had no means of meeting, a very considerable number of the
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voluntary schools throughout the country would be inevitably closed, and the country would lose that very large contribution towards the expenses of national education. The Vice President of the Department would hardly issue such a Circular without the sanction of his superior; and he, therefore, asked the Lord President to inform the House whether that was the case, and whether the Circular was to impose fresh terms retrospectively, and without any aid to old schools which were founded upon the conditions and with the approval of the Department? Those schools had a hard struggle to compete with Board schools, which were supported from unlimited public taxation, and they could hardly be expected to suddenly meet fresh terms and requirements thrown upon them when they were scarcely able, in ordinary circumstances, to maintain so unequal a competition. The second part of the question related to certain manifestoes which had been issued throughout various parts of the country by the Vice President of the Education Committee. In reply to a deputation the other day, very largely extended views were expressed of what was called free education in this country, education supported entirely by public taxation; and according to the speeches of the Vice President, it was now to run into higher regions. To use his own words, it was to extend to science, art, literature, and languages, and equally for all classes. The country might perhaps, be ready to extend the system of national education at the public expense to those higher branches; but whether that was so or not, the House might ask the Minister of Education to say whether that was the view now taken by the Government, and whether such immediate steps had their approval. In reply to the deputation which waited on the Vice President a few days ago, he stated that the heavy mental demands now made by compulsory legislation upon all children throughout the country required that the State should not only give free education—and by education he stated that he meant scientific instruction, wholly independent of moral training—but that the poorer classes should have besides both food and clothing to enable them to sustain this great mental strain. The Govern-

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ment ought to state whether that was really part of their present scheme: free education, and, in the case of the poor, food and clothing besides, at public expense. The Vice President did not at once endorse the views of the deputation, which were quite unlimited, and he cautioned them that their proposition discarded the principle of parental responsibility and undermined the family and home life of England. That seemed a considerable objection to the proposed scheme; but though the Vice President thought caution was required, that consideration did not deter him from entertaining a hope that the County Councils would by-and-bye have so much larger powers that they might carry it out. Further, he went on to express his opinion that in these public schools all classes should be mixed, that children's education should no longer he a private, parental concern at all, but something of a municipal kind—something akin to the old Spartan Constitution, under which the State was to undertake the education upon one rigid system of the whole nation, and he particularly said—
"Least of all do I desire that, any of our national schools should be such that a clergyman, a manufacturer, or a squire, could call his own."
That pretty well indicated the Vice President's views: all were to be on a level; this high order of education was not only to be offered to all,
but all were to be raised to that level. We were to have no more ploughboys, no more sailor-boys, no more stableboys; all were to be raised to what the Vice President considered the dignity of British citizenship. Even apprenticeship, which was not general, but a preparation for special work, was also, according to his view, to be supplied freely. That was a view which, of course, manufacturers took to very much; as it was their business to be done at public expense. Therefore, he would ask the noble Earl, whom he understood to be the Minister of Education and not his Vice, whether those views were entertained by the Government and were about to be carried out by them as far as they could? The third part of the question referred to a proposition of the Vice President with which, if he could see his way to it, he would cordially agree: that the national education of this country should be
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dealt with by one Department, and its management not, as at present, scattered over five or six. There was the Department, at Whitehall, the Department at South Kensington, the Charity Commission, the Local Government Board, and now the County Councils were added to them, with the strangest means of promoting technical education by a broadcast grant of £500,000 a year, which they were to spend as they liked, and in some cases did, no doubt, spend on what they called technical education. If so large and important a subject was to be dealt with upon anything like a system, it should be under the control of one Department, and not of half a dozen, leading not only to a great waste of public money and multiplication of Officials and Inspectors, but to overlapping and duplication of the standard of education. It was extremely mischievous to have this important subject dealt with piecemeal. But even when he had ascertained what the Vice President meant by what he called complete organisation, he did not quite see his way to it. A High Council of Education at Whitehall was proposed, and the administration was gradually to pass down to Provincial Boards, Intermediate Boards, the County Boards, and, finally, to the School Boards. In fact, the whole was a system for any likeness to which the Vice President was obliged to refer to Germany and France, and would certainly be the most complete system of national muddle that, had ever been carried out by any Government. It was the habit of people in these days to tell Englishmen that everything was done better abroad, and that we should follow the example set us by other countries; but though he hated the system of payment by results, he thought the result of English education was better than any other in the world. All he asked was for information on those three points: whether the Circular was intended to be retrospective; whether the Government intended to carry out free education to all classes in the higher branches of science, art, literature, and languages; and whether they had in contemplation any kind of concentration of the various Departments of Education? A Ministry of Education he would perfectly agree with, but not in the way proposed by the Vice President, and he only desired

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to know whether the Lord President endorsed all the views of his Vice?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, the noble Lord seems to have a very strange idea of the relations between colleagues in a Government. He seems to think that one of my colleagues, connected with me at the Privy Council Office, issues Circulars and takes steps with which I am not way concerned, and for which I am not responsible. Surely, I need hardly tell my noble Friend that I am responsible, as my right hon. Friend the Vice President is responsible for the steps taken, and he may disabuse himself from this time henceforth of any notion that I disclaim responsibility for the acts done by the Department of Education. Now, as regards the first matter which my noble Friend has brought under the notice of the House, I would remind him, in the first place, of what was the origin of these movements for providing better and more complete accommodation in our elementary schools. The first recommendation on this subject was made by the Royal Commission, which published its Report in June, 1888. In that Report they said—
"The time has now come when the State may well be more exacting in requiring for school children a proper amount of air and space, suitable premises, airiness and lightness of site, and a reasonable extent of playground."
That Report was signed by my noble Friend opposite. I think that was the foundation of the whole matter. Then they went on to say—
"We are of opinion that existing schools should gradually, but within reasonable limits of time, be brought up to the higher estimate of the space required for school accommodation."
In the Code of 1890, which was withdrawn, there was a provision that in the case of existing schools a special grant should be made in the event of their being required to bring their accommodation up to a more modern standard. That Code, however, was withdrawn. But without pursuing further the various recommendations which have been made, let me point out what the Circular, signed by Mr. Acland, really does. My noble Friend evidently imagines that the Circular makes some great change in the practice of the Department.
LORD NORTON: It would lead to it.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I will come to that presently. This is strictly a Circular of inquiry; and surely it will be admitted that it is the absolute duty of the Department to furnish themselves with correct information. There are not a few schools throughout the country which from lapse of time, neglect, and other circumstances are not now within the provisions of the Code. The Department have reason to believe that there has been great laxity in this matter, and they desire to obtain full information as to the accommodation, sanitary condition, and all other requirements which the schools are bound to have. That is quite independent of anything which may be done in the future; but I admit that it is the aim of the Department,—and I should hope it is the aim of everyone who has the interests of education at heart—to bring, up our schools by reasonable steps to a higher and better standard us regards accommodation, sanitary condition, school apparatus, and so forth. No one, I should imagine, can doubt that as time goes on fresh requirements are really necessary, and that it is the duty of the Department to pave the way for the further steps which may be taken. My noble Friend is apprehensive that further steps will be taken. I am not able to announce to him that that is not the case; that is a matter for further consideration; but Mr. Acland and myself, or noble Lords opposite who may succeed us, will find it is the duty of the Department to take some further steps to bring up our schools to a state of efficiency in these matters. I do not see that there is anything in this Circular which ought to alarm anybody who is really a friend of education. It seems to be thought, in some quarters, there is a desire to suddenly come down on voluntary schools throughout the country and to make a peremptory demand upon them to bring their accommodation, sanitary provision, and school apparatus up to the higher standard, and so by a side-wind to convert a large number of voluntary schools into Board schools. That I say at once would, in my opinion, be a perfectly unjustifiable proceeding; that because we think more accommodation is necessary, we, should, for another object, not for the purpose of securing that accommodation, but for the purpose of substituting another class of

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schools for those voluntary schools, seek to place them in a position in which they could not comply with our requirements. The matter is one of time and opportunity and reasonable treatment of the different schools, and must be treated with reference to the past as well as to the present; but I feel confident that the managers of voluntary schools, who have done so much for the education of the country, would themselves admit that they must be prepared, in a reasonable time and manner, to bring up their schools to a standard more in accordance with the requirements of the present day. With reference to requirements for increased space, they would, of course, not be enforced without full notice and opportunity being given for discussion and seeing whether alterations should be called for, having due regard to the conditions of the various schools. I do not wish to disguise from my noble Friend that, though this is a Circular of inquiry, it is intended, in the first place, that in all eases where a school does not comply with the Code the Inspector may call upon the managers to bring it up to the requirements, and the Circular is intended to obtain information upon which any action of Parliament may be based. I do not mean at all to announce that there is a new policy to be based upon it. All I say is, that this is a wise anal necessary step in order to enable those who are responsible for the education of this country to judge what ought to be done. With regard to the second question, relating to free instruction at the public expense in science, art, literature, and languages, I may reply that, as I had never heard of any such proposal by my right hon. Friend I have no answer to give. The true meaning of any action taken by the Department is neither more nor less to secure that the provisions of the Act relating to free education shall be duly carried into effect. In September last a very important section of the Free Education Act came into operation, and application may be made to the Department by schools under that Act for the purpose of obtaining free education for their children which the Act secures, and there may be eases where those subjects are included which I know my noble Friend thinks ought not to be taught to poor children. I differ from him in that matter. Free instruction may be extended too far, no
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doubt; but to speak of science, art, literature, and languages does not imply such a curriculum as is found at a University.
*LORD NORTON: Those words are quoted from a speech of Mr. Acland made at Birmingham a fortnight ago.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Really I am not responsible for all speeches that may be quoted. I have not read it; and without reading the whole speech, and seeing its right meaning to be gathered from the context, I cannot say anything about it. But the meaning and intention of the Department is simply to secure free education according to the Act; and we are certainly of opinion that it is a very good thing that, in some parts of the country at all events, there should be schools where a rather higher elementary education can be obtained. I think those who have studied the whole question of education will agree that it is desirable that the children of poor persons who have done well in the ordinary elementary schools should have free access to the better class of schools within reasonable limits. If that is what my right hon. Friend meant, as I think it was, I entirely agree with him. With regard to the third point, I rather think my noble Friend agrees with us that it would be better to bring the organisation and management of education under one Department. A Departmental Committee, consisting of officers of the Charity Commission, the Education Department, and the Department of Science and Art, has been appointed to consider the question of the organisation of secondary education in England and Wales, and the relations of the Departments among themselves in connection with this subject, but no scheme can be explained to my noble Friend, because no scheme has been formed. It was not, in my opinion, at all an unwise step on the part of the Department to appoint a Committee of this kind to consider and advise whether anything, and what, ought to be done. The subject is one of difficulty, and will require careful consideration; and if we can find any means of bringing the Departments together, it will be useful to the Public Service. I may say that we have not considered the foreign instances which my noble Friend seems to think have so much influenced us, and

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we shall be governed in what we do by the practice and habits of this country, and by what is best for our own convenience. I shall be glad to give my noble Friend any further information he requires.
*LORD SANDFORDsaid, in reference to sanitation, there was nothing new in the Circular: nothing beyond what had always been required by the Department—that the schools should be thoroughly healthy. No one could or would object to the rigid enforcement of sanitary conditions. His noble Friend who put the question seemed to take a somewhat desponding view of the capacity of voluntary schools to meet the conditions laid down. Ample accommodation was afforded by them; and if the school space demanded were even ten instead of eight square feet, these schools would hold some 660,000 more children than at present. The proposed rule, however, would press hardly upon some of the voluntary schools which, from their popularity and efficiency, were crowded up to the eight feet limit. There were, however, some points in the Circular which somewhat alarmed hint as to the size of sites, classrooms, and cloak-rooms. The building conditions had, since the appointment of the present architect, been very much strung up by the Department. That gentleman was a high authority, and had written one of the best works on school architecture. He came to the Department from the London School Board, and his employment there had mainly consisted in planning and superintending the erection of some of those large educational factories which the School Board indulged in. In framing, the Building Rules for the Education Department he had evidently paid no regard to the wants of small voluntary schools, of which he, perhaps, knew little. A very stringent enforcement of some of these special was not possible in many of them. The Circular asked—
"Does the school provide about a quarter of an acre for every 250 children accommodated?"
and the Inspectors are distinctly told that, in reporting how far the existing schools fall short in any of the points mentioned, their
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"answers should not be modified by any special circumstances affecting the school, or by the fact that they have formerly received a building grant."
From that it seemed they were to expect from the Education Department—the present one at all events—a very stringent and early enforcement of rules which could not be carried out by some of the voluntary schools. Some of their Lordships had, doubtless, seen the St. Giles Church School near the Seven Dials. It was built for 1,000 children, and the cost of the site was enormous. It would now be necessary, according to the Building Rules of the Education Department, that the managers should acquire one acre more at the side of the existing structure. It was built in three stories, and the playground was on the top, the walls of the school being flush with the streets on each side. How would it be possible for the managers of that school, built as it was in a poor and densely-populated neighbourhood, to incur the enormous extra cost of providing an acre of playground on that site? Then they were told that gymnastic apparatus must be provided in the playgrounds. If an Inspector went to the school in May next and found no gymnastic apparatus on the fourth story for the children's acrobatic performances, in sight of an amused neighbourhood, was that school to be condemned? Then the Circular asked whether the light was sufficient. The modern requirement was that the light should be admitted from the left if possible, and, if not, from the right. But many schools as originally planned, before these modern ideas came into prominence, were built with the light facing the children. That was very inconvenient no doubt; but were they going to enforce these regulations on every school, thousands of which had been built throughout the country on plans approved by the Education Department, and with knowledge of how the light wins to come in? Were they going to alter all those schools? Then dimensions were presented for class-rooms, awl as a minimum 18 feet by 15 feet measurement would give 270 square feet, the class-room would hold 27 children. Were their Lordships aware that very nearly 6,000 schools in the country very nearly 6,000 schools fall short in any of the points had not 60 children in daily attendance. Were they going to say that those

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schools must be enlarged? There were 340 schools with less than 20 children in attendance, close upon 1,000 with less than 30, and 1,500 with less than 40. Must they enlarge their class-rooms to accommodate 27 children, when that would he as many as there were in the school? As to the regulations for distance between hat-pegs, they might possibly be carried out in the long corridors of the Board schools; but if it was insisted upon that the pegs should be one foot apart, he wanted to know what they were going to do with the great Jews' school, in Spitalfields, which contained upwards of 4,000 children? Were they going to insist on 1,000 feet of corridors, four feet wide, for hanging up their caps? The voluntary schools would endeavour to meet reasonable conditions, and they had been doing so. Warnings had been given them right and left, and hundreds of thousands of pounds were being subscribed for, to meet the demands of the Education Department; but that Department had no right to enforce against them conditions which might be reasonably applied to Board schools with unlimited funds and unlimited powers at their back, but which ought not to be imposed upon the small voluntary schools of the country.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am not going to make any answer to the noble Lord; that would be quite out of Order; but I should be sorry if he misunderstood the Circular. Its object was simply to ascertain whether the schools fell short of modern requirements. Has he quite correctly read the passage—
"These answers should not be modified by any special circumstances affecting the school or by the fact that it may formerly have received a building grant?"
The object of that was stated in the previous sentences; it was to get a complete statistical record of schools throughout the country, and it was feared that the fact of a school having received a building grant might have been thought to exempt them for giving the Department the information required. A precise answer with regard to every school upon a uniform standard was asked for so that it might in all cases represent the same condition of school—hypothetical of
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course; but the intention was that the fact of a school having obtained a building grant was not to place it in a different position to other schools.
THE DUKE OF RUTLANDsaid, as the Circular seemed to require so much explanation, he would suggest that the Department should issue a second one to explain it.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I think I have given a full explanation on every point required.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, if I have followed the Debate rightly, there is an absolute difference of view as to the meaning of this Circular between the noble Earl and the noble Lords on this side. My noble Friend, who is not unacquainted with these Circulars issued by the Privy Council, is of opinion the noble Earl is absolutely wrong in saying you do not require from existing schools anything, more than is required under the present standards. That is a point on which the noble Lord opposite laid much stress, and it is of enormous importance. Is it correct that you are only seeking information as to the present condition of the schools, or are you forcing upon them a new, higher, and more expensive standard? The noble Earl takes one view; the noble Lord behind me takes the other. I know that the Privy Council has for many years enjoyed the distinction of using the most unintelligible dialect known in this country, and I do not wish to derogate from its liberty and privileges in that respect; but I think that, considering the alarm which this Circular has spread throughout the country, especially among the smaller schools, it would be a kind condescension to the weakness of humanity if the Department would issue another Circular which should be previously submitted to some non-official critic, pointing out exactly what it is that is expected of these unfortunate schools. As the noble Earl knows as well as I know, this is a period of great anxiety and difficulty among nearly all classes throughout the country, and most of all to the country parson; and to unexpectedly come down upon him and call upon him for the fulfilment of requirements which are often physically impossible, and which, in many cases, will impose an intolerable burden upon an

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exchequer already sufficiently overstrained, would be a cruel thing to do; but it would be a still more cruel thing, if you do not really intend to enforce them, to frighten people and lead them to believe that you are going to do so.
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.