Lords Sitting of 29 August 1893

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
COMPANIES WINDING-UP BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, the object of this brief Bill is to make an Amendment in the Winding-up Acts for the purpose of supplying a defect which experience has proved to exist with regard to the winding-up of Companies. Under the Winding-up Acts there is power to make an order for payment of money by a director guilty of misconduct, or in default; but there is a difficulty in enforcing that by bankruptcy proceedings, which cause delay and sometimes injustice. This Bill proposes simply to remedy that evil.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

SHERIFF COURTS CONSIGNATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 209.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD PLAYFAIR, in moving the Second Reading, said, this was simply a Treasury Administrative Bill in reference to money paid by suitors which sometimes accumulated in the hands of Sheriffs. The Bill provided that after seven years unpaid consignations should be paid over to the Queen's Remembrancer or Lord Treasurer. It gave, at the same time, the right to any person who might not have claimed money to demand it from the Queen's Remembrancer.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Playfair.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (SCHOOL ATTENDANCE) BILL.—(No. 255.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, I have to move an Amendment in Clause 3. It is merely to make it in accordance with what has already been passed, and is, in fact, consequential.
  Amendment moved,
  In Clause 3, page 1, to leave out ("wholly exempt") and insert ("exempt wholly or partially as the case may be").—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee.

LADIES' HALL, BANGOR COLLEGE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE BISHOP OF ST. ASAPHcalled attention to the circumstances under which the Ladies' Hall, at Bangor, in connection with the University College of North Wales, had been closed by the action of the College authorities; and asked the Lord President of the Council what steps could be taken to remedy the injury which had been done to the Lady Principal, to the directors and shareholders of the Ladies' Hall, and to the cause of women's education in Wales? He asked for the indulgence usually accorded to one who addressed the House for the first time, while he called attention to a subject which not only involved injustice to individuals and to several persons who had devoted time, labour, and money to the higher education of women in Wales, but also vitally affected higher education itself, especially for women, in the Principality. It was necessary to begin by distinguishing the three Bodies concerned. There were Directors who were the Governing Body of the Ladies' Hall at

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  Bangor; the Senate, consisting of the Principal, Professors, and permanent Lecturers of the College, who were charged with matters of discipline and education; and the Council, who were the supreme Governing Body of the University College at Bangor. As the result of an inquiry by a Departmental Committee into higher education in Wales. University College was established in 1884, and to the establishment of that College all classes of the community contributed their aid with remarkable unanimity. By the end of the year more than £37,000 had been subscribed; and with this sum and a grant of £4,000 a year from the Treasury the College was opened. In 1886 several ladies and gentlemen interested in the higher education of women in Wales joined together to provide, under a resident Lady Principal, board and residence for female students wishing to study at Bangor College. They formed themselves into a company and leased a property from Lord Penrhyn, and they spent more than £4,000 in furnishing the women's hall. The College authorities declined to take any share in the financial responsibility for this undertaking or in framing regulations; but they recognised the women's hall. The College authorities, he was informed, declined to take any responsibility of any kind either in regard to financial liabilities or the regulations for the women's hall; but they had recognised the hall by recording that—
  "A hall had been established for women students at Bangor under the superintendence of Miss Frances Hughes."
  Relying upon this and upon the bona fides and common sense of the College authorities, the Directors opened the women's hall in 1888. The hall prospered under the superintendence of Miss Hughes, and it numbered 28 students. The Directors were about to spend £2,000 in providing increased accommodation, when the difficulty arose which led to the action for libel at the recent Chester Assizes, in which Miss Hughes recovered £350 damages and costs, and completely vindicated herself from the charge of maligning a lady student, which had led the Council to revoke the licence to the women's hall. The main
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  facts were recited in the Charge of Mr. Justice Charles to the jury. He said the Court absolutely and entirely cleared the character of Miss Hughes from the charges which had been formulated by the Senate, and that she was justified in not appearing before it, a letter having been written to her which Mr. Justice Charles said looked very much like a writ. The learned Judge further said that the inquiry which had been held by the Senate had been conducted without the slightest regard to the ordinary form of judicial proceedings. Justice had been done to her character, and he now asked that the same justice should be done to others. The Directors, much as they felt the grievous injury which had been done to the cause to which they had contributed so much time and money, were willing to let bygones be bygones; but they asked that Miss Hughes should be reinstated in the position from which she had been wrongfully thrust by the Council on a charge which had been declared by a Court of Justice to be unfounded. In another place the Vice President of the Council had stated that this was a matter of internal discipline, and therefore could not be inquired into; but in a State-endowed College it was difficult to understand how any public inquiry could be held that did not relate to the internal management and life of the College. The right hon. Gentleman who gave this answer was making for himself quite a reputation by the zeal he displayed in examining and inquiring into the minutest detail of the smallest elementary school-room; and why his zeal should cool down when he was asked to deal with the larger subject of a State College was a matter difficult to explain. Owing to the action of the College authorities six members of the Council had withdrawn, among them being the Duke of Westminster and the Lord Lieutenant of Anglesea, who was a leading Nonconformist in Wales. The injustice which had driven them away from the College for which they had done so much would, if not remedied, injure the future of that Institution, and would destroy the co-operation which had resulted so beneficially in the past. He therefore desired to ask the Lord President whether any inquiry would be held into this matter which he had ventured to bring before the House?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am afraid I can only repeat the answer given by the Vice President, in which I entirely agree, that the question relates to an internal disciplinary matter in which the Government have no jurisdiction. I will not go into the question in regard to Miss Hughes. There has been an unfortunate quarrel, but the College authorities are invested with certain powers, and they have thought fit to exercise those powers. It was for them to judge whether it is desirable that this hall in which the ladies resided should or should not be connected with the College; but it is not a matter in which the Government are called upon to order an inquiry. With regard to the remarks from the Judicial Bench which have been referred to, without in the least impugning the learned Judge's Charge, I would point out that it was not the action of the College authorities but of a newspaper that was before him for trial, and I decline altogether to be bound by opinions expressed by the Judge in such circumstances upon a matter which was not before him for trial. I can only say that we deeply regret that this trouble should have arisen with regard to an admirable institution, and I sincerely hope that means will be found to adjust matters in difference for the future usefulness of the College. And I would remark that it is not absolutely necessary that Miss Hughes should remain the head of the Ladies' College, and that very likely if some other lady could be induced to undertake the duty a licence would be granted. But I repeat this is not a matter in which the Government can be called upon to interfere, or, indeed, to express any opinion.
  THE BISHOP OF BANGORbegged to express his disagreement with the view of the Lord President that this was a purely disciplinary matter. He did not contend for a moment that the Senate had not full power over the discipline of the College; but this was a much wider question. Around the Colleges at Bangor, Cardiff, and Aberystwith were grouped various halls for male and female students connected with the Church and with the various denominations and
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  sects, and it would be a great hardship, if under such circumstances as these, their licences were to be withdrawn. There was no charge whatever brought against the Directors of this hall, nor against the students; but simply because there was a disagreement between Miss Hughes and the Senate of the College, the Senate acted on their own judgment, and practically claimed the right of dismissing the head and withdrawing the licence from any institution connected with the College. Difficulties had arisen in this matter out of which he could not see any way except by the Government granting an inquiry into the whole subject. By that means the College would be enabled to work for the common good. He hoped, therefore, the noble Earl would reconsider the matter before it was too late.
  LORD PENRHYN, as one of the Governors of Bangor who had withdrawn his name from the Council in consequence of what had taken place, said there could be no question that a very grievous wrong had been done in this case, and he pressed the Government to reconsider their determination and grant an inquiry. He could not agree with the Lord President that this was a matter in which those connected with the libel action were alone concerned, and not the College, for the libel action would never have been heard of had it not been for the course taken by the authorities in calling upon Miss Hughes to apologise for what she had not done, and then arbitrarily ordering the hall to be closed, so that Miss Hughes had lost her position. It was no light matter to alienate so many friends of education in North Wales, and he respectfully urged upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity for an inquiry.
  THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, I should like to say a few words upon this subject, because I do not entirely agree with the noble Earl who occupies the position I formerly held. I quite admit that, as President of the Council, he has no jurisdiction in the matter whatever; but as a Member of the Government which grants the large sum of £4,000 yearly to the College he has a very distinct interest in seeing that that

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  money is properly administered. That seems to mo to impose a duty upon the Government where a matter of this kind is brought to their knowledge—not a purely disciplinary matter within the College itself, but one outside; the authorities having put an end to this institution upon grounds which cannot be supported. That was done upon evidence which, as Mr. Justice Charles said, was not at all ordinary judicial evidence. It seems to me that in a case of this sort the Government might very well give the matter careful consideration whether, before making their grant to this College, they should inquire what its position is in relation to this subordinate hall. It seems to me to be a most unfortunate position for these Colleges that there should be nobody to check anything they do; that they should be allowed to enter the University entirely as independent Members; and that the Ministry itself should not have the power of checking any excesses upon their part. I think the Government, therefore, should carefully inquire into this matter and the position of the College before they supply it with further funds.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, I think the noble Earl is inviting the Government to undertake a somewhat dangerous task. The discipline of the College in these respects—namely, the granting and refusing licences to particular halls—has been committed by the law to the Governing Body of the College; and if in every case in which it may be considered that the Governing Body of a College have come to a wrong decision in exercising the powers committed to them, the Government which is not made the superior Judge over their proceedings, and to whom an appeal might have been given from their decisions, were to interpose and say—"Before making the grant which has been determined upon by Parliament as proper to be given to this College, we must inquire how the Senate have exercised the powers which the law has committed to them without appeal," it would be a very dangerous precedent, and one which the noble Earl might be the first to regret in relation to other matters. What I would suggest is that if wrong has been done bad blood would be more likely to be put an end to if after
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  what has passed an appeal was made to the Senate to reconsider the position it has taken up. I quite admit that what has taken place furnishes very substantial grounds to the Senate for listening to such an appeal, and I hope they will be manly enough and generous enough to reconsider the matter on fresh evidence.
  [The subject then dropped.]

COLLEGE CHARTER ACT, 1871 (UNIVERSITY OF WALES).

  RESOLUTION.
  THE BISHOP OF CHESTERmoved—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the assent of Her Majesty be withheld from the Draft Charter of the proposed University of Wales until such portions of the aforesaid Draft Charter shall have been omitted as prevent the inclusion of St. David's College, Lampeter, in the County of Cardigan, as a constituent College of the aforesaid proposed University of Wales."
  He said, the object of the Motion was not the rejection of, but to improve the Charter by broadening its basis. Its aim was first the good of higher education in Wales; and, secondly, of St. David's College, Lampeter, which had been a Chartered College for 65 years. Its first Charter, the Charter of Incorporation, was granted in 1828; its second Charter for conferring the Degree of Bachelor of Divinity, was given in 1852; and its Arts Charter in 1865. Under its Arts Charter the Arts Degree was made to move as far as possible upon the old lines of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. The College itself could never appoint more than one Examiner, the others being appointed by the Vice Chancellors of Oxford and Cambridge. In 1880 a Committee of Inquiry into higher education in Wales, under the presidency of Lord Aberdare, was appointed. It was a thoroughly impartial Body, and the result of the inquiry was to the effect that a Welsh University should be established, and that Lampeter should be included in it. Since then the educational power of the Institution had become at least twice as great as it was in 1881, when Lord Aberdare's Departmental Committee reported, and when he had himself the honour of being Principal. It had grown in every part, and had been affiliated to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and had largely availed itself of that affiliation. Its whole education had

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  broadened, and therefore if the College deserved to be included in 1881 it was doubly fit to be included now. The first reason for including it was the benefit that would accrue to higher education in Wales. It would be good for the Welsh University that Lampeter should be included. It would be something that Nonconformist ministers and the clergy of the Church should in future have this bond of union—that they belonged to a common University. It had been the policy of Lampeter all along to welcome co-operation with the other Colleges of the proposed University upon equitable terms. Those who might be responsible for the exclusion of Lampeter would leave a root of bitterness in Welsh life, social, political, and religious, if they compelled clergymen to have different sympathies and interests as regarded their University from their Nonconformist brethren, and that would be the case if Lampeter was left in a position of isolation. If the Charter became law in its present shape it would form a mischievous precedent for the Gresham University, and would boar hardly on King's College, London. What were the reasons for not carrying out the recommendations of Lord Aberdare's Committee, and admitting Lampeter to the Welsh University? One of the reasons adduced added insult to injury, for it was said that Lampeter had made no application, and was now too late. It had on every occasion expressed its desire to become a member of the proposed University on fair terms; but it declined to have its claims retried by an incompetent tribunal. The Shrewsbury Conference, held to consider the question of the Welsh University Charter, was not recognised by law, and it was not recognised by Lampeter. It was a Conference dominated by the three existing State-aided Colleges. He was glad that their Lordships had just previously had an object-lesson in the judicial temper exhibited by one of those Colleges, the College of Bangor. Why should Lampeter have gone to the Conference at Shrewsbury cap in hand to ask the representatives of those three Colleges to be admitted as a member of the proposed University when it knew that admission would be refused by them except on thoroughly inequitable conditions? The Professors had in the proper way peti-
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  tioned the Privy Council to be beard; but doubtless for sufficient reasons that request was not granted, and this was the first opportunity the College had had of getting its claims fairly tried since 1880. As their Lordships knew, the Draft Charter had lain on the Table of the House during a mouth so unpropitious that it was a marvel the College had been able to state any case at all. The refusal to include Lampeter in the Welsh University was worse than ill-grounded. It was said that this College was heterogeneous, that it represented the old University types of Oxford and Cambridge, and that it was a tutorial and residential College. This was an objection of mere academic pedantry, and not one springing from a broad view of College life. Among other objections urged against the inclusion of Lampeter, it was stated that the constitution of the College would not amalgamate with those of the three other University Colleges, and that Lampeter was almost a purely Theological College—that the Arts were subordinated to the Theological Course. It was true that from the first Lampeter maintained that it would be absurd to establish in Wales a University which ignored theology. What was required in Wales was that great freedom should be given to the constituent Colleges of the University to teach theology upon their own lines, frankly recognising the undogmatic and the dogmatic conscience alike, and that the University examination should be undenominational. One fact alone would show that the Arts were not subordinated to Theology in the College, and that was that at the last examination three-fourths of the papers sent in were non-theological, even for candidates going out in theology, and had reference to the Arts. But the real reason why the College was to be excluded from the University was because it was connected with the Church of England. That was at the bottom of the whole matter, and the fact must be acknowledged. If the College wished to override the other Colleges, and was anxious to exclude the Colleges of another denomination, there might be some thing in the objection; but there was no such intention, and Lampeter would simply come in as one of the other Colleges—not as one out of three as pro-

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  posed by Lord Aberdare's Committee, but as one out of four. Lampeter was more likely to be overpowered by the other Colleges than to overpower them. Their Lordships probably knew how things were tending in Wales in regard to matters of religious controversy. A movement was in progress throughout elementary education which, unless it was stemmed, would find its way into higher and University education. In the Board schools in Wales the Bible was subjected to the same treatment that Lampeter was in regard to the Welsh University?—it was excluded. The Report of 1888 showed that out of, in round numbers, 300 Board schools the Bible had been banished from 123; it was simply read in 119, and in 290 of these schools there was no religious examination. As to intermediate education, the Act passed by the late Government, with the best possible intentions, was simply being warped and distorted by an aggressive and intolerant denominationalism in Wales. To speak of Cardiganshire alone, such was the intolerance of denominationalism, that though a school had been established there acknowledged on all sides to be efficient, and to which Nonconformists readily sent their children, it was now proposed to penalise the parents of Nonconformist children by compelling them to send the children to distant schools rather than allow them to hold their exhibitions at the school established and maintained by St. David's College. The spirit thus displayed in intermediate education would soon find its way into the higher education of Wales. On May 2 last Dr. Martineau wrote a very remarkable and valuable letter in The Times dealing, in a very different way, with the subject, in which, among other remarks, he said—
  "This fascinating theory of 'a common Christianity' on which the essentials are to settle, after leave of absence has been given to all else, will not work. …. A religious man cannot cut his theology into pieces and deal it out in fragments selected by deference to others' belief."
  Dr. Martineau also used those words which, he ventured to say, might be written in gold for their Lordships' recollection—
  "Hold fast the protection for the undogmatic conscience; add an equal provision for the dogmatic."
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  Lampeter had no wish to interfere with the religious principles of any other College, but claimed that it should not be excluded from the Welsh University because it held fast to its own religious principles. Their Lordships should remember that what was being done in this matter in Wales would, before long, be repeated in England. Therefore, this question was not a small one of a merely local character, but it was one of such importance to the whole country that it demanded the serious consideration of their Lordships.
  Moved to resolve—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the assent of Her Majesty be withheld from the Draft Charter of the proposed University of Wales until such portions of the aforesaid Draft Charter shall have been omitted as prevent the inclusion of St. David's College, Lampeter, in the County of Cardigan, as a constituent College of the aforesaid proposed University of Wales."—(The Lord Bishop of Chester.)
  THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'Ssaid, with regard to the statement made by the Vice President of the Council in another place in answer to a question put to him, that the Visitor of Lampeter College had made no representation on the subject of the proposed Welsh University, that he had been a Visitor for many years, and the reason why he had made no official representation was that he bad never been called upon to do so, although he had on several public occasions expressed his strong opinion that Lampeter ought to be included in the University, believing that, on the whole, it would be to the advantage of the College that it should be included. He might add that the Petition presented to the Privy Council by the Principal and Professors of the College was unofficially and informally submitted to him, and had his full concurrence. He desired to make that statement now, because his silence upon that occasion might have been misconstrued. The question had been asked of what advantage would it be to the College of Lampeter to be included as a constituent member of the proposed University? He frankly confessed that he had had many debates with himself on the subject, but had at last come to the conclusion that the balance of advantage was on the side of inclusion. It was a question for the authorities of the College,

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  and they desired to be included. Although the College would lose something by inclusion, it was the duty of the authorities to waive any objections they might have in view of the advantages which would accrue from its inclusion to the University when that institution should come into being. If there was to be a University for Wales, that University should be as efficient, as national, as liberal, and as comprehensive as possible. It would do the University infinite injury to have so important an element as the College of Lampeter excluded from it. He feared that the effect of the exclusion of Lampeter would be to perpetuate divisions that unhappily existed, and he did not understand why efforts should be made to exclude the College unless they were made for partisan purposes. It was in the interests of a section that the exclusion was advocated. He protested strongly against this attempt, to use an American word, to gerrymander a place of higher education. The proposed Charter in many respects seemed to be the work of a doctrinaire, there being a great deal that smacked of academic pedantry about it. If it became law, it would be very distasteful to a large minority at least of the inhabitants of Wales, and certainly very distasteful to a large majority of the educated people of that country.
  *LORD ABERDAREsaid, having presided over the Departmental Committee in which this Charter was prepared, he had listened with great regret to the grave imputations cast upon it by the right rev. Prelates who had spoken. They had told the House there was a desire on the part of the Committee to exclude Lampeter. The Committee had the assistance of the late Principal of Lampeter, Chancellor Edmondes, a man of great ability and admirable judgment, whose loss he deeply deplored, and afterwards with his successor, Principal Owen. Though in close communication with him from November, 1891, down to January last, he really could not ascertain what Lampeter desired in the matter. For 14 months this question was constantly before him, and during that period he was, of course, in frequent communication with representatives of Lampeter, and yet he could not ascertain what Lampeter desired. In fact, he did not
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  know now. The recommendation of the Departmental Committee was that the College should give up the power of conferring Degrees in Arts, and to this day he did not know whether or not it intended to surrender that power which distinguished it from other Theological Colleges.
  THE BISHOP OF CHESTERsaid, that no other idea had ever entered the minds of those connected with Lampeter than that if the College became a constituent part of the University it would give up its own power of conferring degrees.
  *LORD ABERDAREsaid, that the intimation which now came from the right rev. Prelate had never been expressed before, and great doubt had been felt on the point, for many of the leading Churchmen who gave evidence before the Departmental Committee argued with considerable force that the present Charter of the College ought not to be surrendered. The only clear statement of opinion he was then able to get upon the matter was from the late Principal Edmondes, who said he thought the University Charter ought to be an enlargement of the Charter of St. David's. The Dean of St. David's and others thought that the existing Charter ought not to be interfered with, but that if the rest of Wales required a Charter for a University they should have it. The right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of St. David's) himself doubted whether it would be to the advantage of the College to part with its Charter; and the Bishop of Bangor, then at the head of one of the largest and most important schools in Wales, went further, and said there ought to be no alteration in the present state of things, while objecting to the enlargement of the Charter of Lampeter on the ground that he had no great faith in the work it was doing. In answer to Question 15,983 in the evidence, the right rev. Prelate said—
  "It strikes me it must be very difficult for examiners to come down and examine half-a-dozen, apart from others, and to see that they have reached the same standard as men from Oxford and Cambridge, who are doing a different class of work. The class of boys who go to Lampeter is not the best class of boys in Welsh schools, and I do not see how the degree can be of equal value to those of Oxford and

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  Cambridge, nor do I think the Lampeter men themselves have set a high value upon the degree."
  The Departmental Committee held sittings in every county in Wales, and all the leading men in the country had given their opinions upon the question of the provision of higher education for Wales. Since then Welsh opinion had become in many respects largely modified. When the Committee made their recommendation there were 64 students at Lampeter, and the only other College was the undenominational one at Aberystwith, where there were 57. It was quite uncertain what advantage would be taken throughout Wales of the foundation of another College. But since that time—1881—the number of students at the undenominational Colleges had increased rapidly, having risen to 677, without reckoning medical students, whose numbers so often swelled the rolls of public Colleges. The circumstances, therefore, had greatly altered. Again, Educational Committees had been appointed all over Wales to inquire into the best method of establishing a system of intermediate education; the various problems connected with higher education had been widely discussed, and clearer ideas prevailed as to their solution. Nobody would think at the present moment of suggesting the solution recommended by the Departmental Committee of enlarging the Charter of St. David's College; and the question now was whether a University should be founded in which Lampeter should or not find a place? He would have been glad had it been possible to enlarge the Charter of Lampeter; but that was at present impracticable. When Lampeter was founded it was a strictly Theological College, though subsequently liberal arrangements were made for those who were not members of the Church of England; but in spite of that he would ask, without wishing to say anything against an institution that had done so much good, was it or was it not true that it had never had the confidence of the Nonconformist Bodies? Parents were afraid of the genius loci, and that their children would adopt the opinions of the majority. Some Nonconformists, no doubt, had taken their degrees there; but he believed that the right rev. Prelate who opened the Debate, and who had
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  himself done so much for the success of the College, could reckon on his fingers the number of Nonconformists who had availed themselves of the teaching of the College. Then, again, the Visitor had powers that were utterly unknown in any other College, and altogether its constitution was entirely different from that of the other three Welsh Colleges. He denied the statement that the decision of the Committee had been affected in any way by the odium theologicum. He was quite certain if the Governing Body of Lampeter were other than it was, if it had not an autocrat—he admitted a wise and benign autocrat—in the Visitor, if it had anything like a broad liberal constitution, it would have been very difficult to have found any just reasons for excluding Lampeter from its share in the University. Of course, it must show that its work was as good as that of the other three Colleges, and he quite admitted that its Professors were a very able body of men; but, possibly from want of adequate means, several of them had to take charge of two subjects, and it was hardly possible that with such a division of labour their work should be as effective as was the case in the other three Colleges who had large and ample staffs, each man dealing with his own subject. If Lampeter was to be included, what were they to say to the eight Welsh Theological Colleges in which the Arts were taught with varying efficiency? He doubted whether any of them would come up to the standard which would be required. The effect of admitting a number of Colleges with varying standards would be that the standard must be lowered in order to meet them all. Their Lordships would see the difficulties which surrounded the matter, and that considering the present position of Lampeter, considering its government and past history, it would have been hardly possible to admit it consistently with their duty, and with the principles on which the lines of the Charter were drawn. The amplest provision had been made in the Charter for the admission of other Colleges hereafter. He could not say that at this moment Lampeter stood on the same educational footing as the other three Colleges, and he lamented the necessity under which the Committee laboured of not admitting it; but he did not think that, consistently with what

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  they thought an University degree should be, they could safely do so without incurring the result of lowering the standard.
  THE BISHOP OF ST. ASAPHsaid, the noble Lord had apparently changed his own opinion very largely since 1880, which was no doubt a very long time ago; and surely he would not claim the luxury of a change of opinion for his own side exclusively. The noble Lord had told them that he repudiated anything like theological or political feeling, and hoped that they would not be introduced into the matter, and then he said that they could not include Lampeter because it had not gained the confidence of the Nonconformists. He was not aware that Church Colleges were likely to gain the confidence of Nonconformists. What was asked was that Lampeter should be excluded because it was a Church College. Then the noble Lord also said that Lampeter had not asked to be included. It was quite enough that they came there and asked to be included in the Welsh University. Again, it was undoubtedly a good thing to have a Visitor, and the difficulty which had arisen in reference to the ladies' hall at Bangor would never have occurred if there had been a Visitor there with the same power as the Visitor possessed at Lampeter. The Bishop of St. David's had authorised him to say that a scheme had been prepared under which it would be easy for Lampeter to be included in the Welsh University, and the authorities of the College were quite willing to submit it for consideration when an opportunity occurred. Lord Aberdare, whose great services to the cause of education in Wales he ventured to recognise, had not met the point that they had not been treated fairly in the matter, and that Lampeter had not been excluded on the ground that it had not done splendid work in the past.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, he had not denied it.
  THE BISHOP OF ST. ASAPHhoped, in conclusion, that the House would not consent to the Charter being passed as it stood.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, it was not denied that Lampeter had done good work, but the noble Lord said it
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  should be excluded because it had not conciliated and secured the affections of the Nonconformists.
  *LORD ABERDAREsaid, he had never made that statement, and would not have put it forward, considering it an extremely inadequate reason.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, the noble Lord had certainly made some statement to that effect as one of the reasons he put forward—that Lampeter had not succeeded in obtaining the affections of a large number of the Welsh people.
  *LORD ABERDAREsaid, he gave that as a reason why they should shrink from enlarging the Charter of Lampeter, but not for the exclusion of that College from the Welsh University.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, the noble Lord had apparently put his arguments a little out of order if that was what he meant, but he certainly gave the impression that that was one of his main grounds. No sufficient reason had been given why Lampeter should be excluded. What had been said, and with a great deal of force, was that Lampeter was slow in making up its mind, and that was a very good reason why they should hesitate to include Lampeter. At the same time, Lampeter did send in a Petition, and did distinctly ask to be included. It oven went so far as to say that it was willing to surrender its Charter—to surrender the power of giving degrees. It was, therefore, a little hard upon Lampeter for the noble Lord to say the College had declined to give up its Charter.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, his statement was that it had never been suggested during the whole time the Conference and Committee were going on that there was any willingness on the part of the College to surrender its Charter. It was after everything was closed that that proposal was heard for the first time.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, he was glad to have drawn out that remark, because certainly the noble Lord's argument seemed to go the length of saying that never until that day had any intimation of willingness been given. It was only natural that they should hesitate,

  1327
  for they had the privilege of granting their own degrees, and they were considering as to joining a University where the great majority would probably be by no means friendly to their views. But when they petitioned the Privy Council there was no further question about the matter. The College might have been a little late, but there could be no doubt they had desired to be included for some time past. One argument brought forward was that Lampeter had not as good a staff as the other three Colleges, and therefore was not able to do as good work, though it was admitted to have done good work in the past—that the other three Colleges were in a position to do much better and higher work in the future. That argument did not amount to very much, because the claim to large numbers had been completely knocked to pieces. It had been pointed out that the large number of students attending other Colleges than Lampeter had been arrived at by adding together all sorts of attendances at classes; but he would like to know the number of those who took degrees, for, after all, a College was to be tested not by the number of students attending a few lectures, but by the number who went through a definite course of instruction. The noble Lord had spoken of unwillingness to lower the standard of the University by letting in Lampeter; but nothing could lower it more than letting in a mixed multitude, who were simply taking a few courses here and there with no definite object to which a test could be applied. He was sorry that Lampeter did not make up its mind sooner; but it was no reason for condemning it to perpetual exclusion that it had hesitated to take a step which involved a large self-sacrifice. Nothing could induce it to surrender its Charter but the belief that it could do useful work in the new University. Other Colleges should not have been included in the Charter unless they could show they were doing good work. The Church of England did not ask for any special privilege to be granted to her, or to be treated on a different footing from any other Religious Bodies; but she did ask that there should be fair play all round. In the interests of the highest education, that which looked to true cultivation as the supreme purpose for which a Uni-
  1328
  versity existed, it would be a great gain to the University of Wales to extend its borders in such a way as to include the College of Lampeter.
  *LORD KNUTSFORDsaid, that as one of the Privy Councillors to whom the Draft University Charter was referred, he desired to state the reasons upon which they acted in approving that Charter with some Amendments, although they did not see their way to then including Lampeter College as a constituent College of the new University. Lord Aberdare had very fully and clearly stated the reasons why the Shrewsbury Conference and the Committee were not able to include Lampeter; and, therefore, he need only explain why the Privy Council could not do so. Sufficient consideration had not been given to the Reservation Clause which would be found at the end of the Charter, which was inserted by the special order of the Privy Council when they found they were not able to admit Lampeter. By that clause power was reserved not to the University, as in the case of the Victoria University, but to the Queen to admit, by any supplementary Charter or Charters, any College or Colleges she might be advised to include. Therefore, when the right rev. Prelate the Bishop of London spoke of the "perpetual exclusion" of Lampeter, he could hardly have read through the Charter. There was no difficulty in the way of Lampeter being admitted at any time when the relations of that College to the University were settled. But those who advocated the immediate inclusion of Lampeter were conscious of the existing difficulties in the relations between that College and the other Colleges and the University; and under the consciousness of these difficulties, the simple course of setting to work to remove these difficulties and then applying for a supplementary Charter did not commend itself to the opponents of the Charter; and the result had been considerable vagueness in action on their part. First it was proposed to move a humble Address to Her Majesty to withhold her assent to certain portions of the Draft Charter. The portions of the Charter that were objected to were not mentioned in the Motion, nor was the object of making those alterations stated, and nothing

  1329
  could be more vague and uncertain than the Resolution. The next form the Motion took was to substitute for an Address to Her Majesty the pious opinion of their Lordships that assent should be withheld until portions of the Charter that prevented the inclusion of Lampeter were omitted. The object of the alterations of portions was stated, but again it was not stated what portions they were. It had been assumed in the course of the Debate that in the Petition presented by Lampeter it was stated that Lampeter was willing and ready to give up her privileges and to alter her Charter; but that was the very first time that willingness had been heard of. In the Petition of Lampeter to be admitted into the University which was before the Privy Council, the petitioners only stated that they were prepared to submit Amendments in the Draft University Charter so as to provide for the inclusion of St. David's College, but not a word was there said about giving up their own privileges or desiring to alter their own constitution. On these points there had been a good deal of misapprehension. It was admitted that the time had arrived for the establishment of a University for Wales, and forgiving effect in substance to the recommendations of the Committee of 1881, although, as Lord Aberdare had shown, the state of things had so changed since that time that the scheme then suggested could not be adopted in detail. There could be no doubt that the three University Colleges, whose success had been as conspicuous as that of Lampeter, should form the nucleus of that University. When the Draft Charter was prepared, circulated, and discussed, the authorities of Lampeter had not made up their minds what course to pursue. The right rev. Prelate, the Visitor, had admitted that he was not consulted, and that he had great doubts, even up to the present time, what course to advise; and it, was most remarkable that during all this time, and though the terms of the Draft Charter had been known so long, no direct resolution for the admission of Lampeter had been moved at any public meeting or by any Public Body. And as had already been pointed out, at no time bad there been any statement, until this evening, that the authorities of Lampeter College were ready to give up any privilege, or assent
  1330
  to any alteration of the Lampeter College Charter. The Privy Council had then before them a Draft Charter, which had received, not a unanimous approval, but a large and distinct approval from the leading educational authorities of Wales, as was shown by the statements in the preamble of the Charter. He apprehended that in these circumstances it was their duty, unless there was something which they thought radically wrong running through the whole scheme, to approve of it in substance, and not to interfere with the details as to the constitution of the Governing Bodies, and so forth, though of course correcting any details that were against the interests of the University, or which were unworkable. It was also their duty to consider carefully the protests against it, which were few in number. In passing, he might observe that these Petitions mainly raised objections to the condition of residence being required. This was not the time to argue against those objections, though he thought a full answer could be made. Then the Privy Council had to consider the Petition of Lampeter and the character and constitution of that College. Their Lordships had heard that it was governed by a College Board, consisting of the Principal and tutors (who must be in Holy Orders and graduates of Oxford or Cambridge), and of the Professors. [The Bishop of St. ASAPH: Not all.] They must also be approved of by the Visitor, who had extraordinarily large powers, both in initiation and veto. He made the statutes; he could remove members for incapacity or misconduct, and he had control over the College Board. No one could doubt, from the aims of the founder and the composition of the Governing Body, that it was a Denominational College, and that it was to be primarily a Theological College, and only secondarily an Arts College. That seemed, in fact, admitted in the Lampeter Petition, where it was shown that in the last 10 years more than one-quarter only of the graduates had taken non-theological degrees. Now, he must not be supposed to be contending that a College should be excluded from the University simply on account of the religious character of its foundation. Nor was he inclined in the least to minimise the excellent work which this College had done; on the contrary, he

  1331
  desired to speak in the highest terms of that work. Personally, he should very much like to see this College a constituent College of the University, and he hoped before long it would be so. But it was clear, from what had been said, that the simple admission of the College with its special Charter, form of government, and privilege of conferring degrees, into the University upon the same footing as the other University Colleges would be impossible. And before it could be admitted even on a somewhat different footing, the existing scheme of Lampeter would have to be recast in the direction of making the Governing Body a more representative one, and of placing the College under the independent control of the Governing Body; and, of course, the privilege of conferring degrees must be given up. It was now urged that the Lampeter Authorities were prepared to do this. He hoped that this was the case; hut, in the meantime, he earnestly hoped that their Lordships would not accept the Motion, but would allow the Charter to proceed and the University to be created. No injury could be done by delay in the admission of St. David's College, for they could come in by a supplementary Charter. There would be plenty of time to consider and discuss in an amicable way the terms on which the College could come in; but surely the important work of starting this much-desired University ought not to be delayed merely on the ground that St. David's was not at present included.
  THE BISHOP OF SALISBURYmoved an Amendment praying Her Majesty to withhold her assent to the Draft Charter until amendment had been made therein. In his view, the Charter as it stood was an unfit instrument to go forth to the world, and to represent to the world the ideal of the University of Wales. The noble Lord (Lord Aberdare) had described it as being on a large popular representative basis. That was so, indeed; but he would like to ask whether that large popular basis was likely to secure the great end for which Universities were intended—namely, the highest study carried on in the most unimpassionate manner? The Council was to be heterogeneous; and the appointment of Mayors, Aldermen, and
  1332
  Burgesses of boroughs was likely to admit persons prominent in politics rather than in educational matters. Not only so, but the teachers in elementary schools were to be represented. The object of a University was to control the lower education, not for the lower education to control the higher, to carry out what might be thought most popular, and to adopt that practical view of education as a thing that must pay for the purpose of getting on in life which those who had the control of our Universities had so constantly to resist.
  Amendment moved, to leave out from ("until") to the end of the Motion, and insert ("amendment has been made therein").—(The Lord Bishop of Salisbury.)
  THE BISHOP OF ELYbegged to support the Motion, and urged that St. David's College ought necessarily to form part of the future University of Wales.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, my noble Friend behind me has stated so fully the reasons at the present time for excluding Lampeter from the Charter that I have but little to add. My noble Friend opposite (Lord Knutsford) has also clearly set forth what were the motives which actuated the Committee of the Privy Council. The Government are only too anxious that the Committee should be an impartial Body, because they naturally desire to do that which is best for the cause of University education in Wales. I wish to point out what has a good deal slipped out of view in the Debate, that St. David's is essentially a Theological College for the education of persons intended to enter Holy Orders in the Church of England. Such a College cannot be regarded simply as a College requesting in the ordinary manner to be admitted into a University, which would be practically a University for general education, we are confronted, therefore, with this difficulty: that if this Theological College is admitted into the University, there will be claims which cannot lightly be set aside from no less than eight other Colleges in Wales giving more or less a theological education. The matter presented itself to the Members of the Committee exactly as my noble Friend opposite (Lord

  1333
  Knutsford) has stated. We are all agreed that there should be a clause in the Charter which would enable the University hereafter to admit other Colleges. The right rev. Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury seemed to think that there is a good deal in that argument, so he thought proper to move to present an Address against the whole Charter, and from his speech I gather that he is against any Charter of any kind.
  THE BISHOP OF SALISBURYsaid that, in order to get the question in regard to the admission of St. David's settled one way or the other, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am glad the right rev. Prelate has withdrawn his Amendment. That relieves me from the necessity of dealing with it further. There is nothing in the Charter which prevents the consideration of Lampeter's claim hereafter if necessary, and I think sufficient reason has been shown why the Privy Council should have decided to let the Charter go on. I forget how many months afterwards it was that the petitioners came before the Privy Council with the unsatisfactory and vague resolution which they presented. I hope your Lordships will not agree to the Motion.
  THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, I cannot help feeling that to the course taken by the Conference and Assembly alluded to by my noble Friend opposite, in which he took so important a part, must be attributed the settlement of this Charter.
  *LORD ABERDAREsaid, they had made different arrangements; that the Charter before them gave to the Crown the powers which the Draft Charter proposed to confer on the Court of Governors.
  THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: Then I have been misinformed, and I withdraw my remarks upon that point. But the question is, whether Lampeter was or not in a position to become a member of this University at an earlier period, and to have been included in the Charter without difficulty. It seems to me that everything is taken against Lampeter
  1334
  upon its Petition. The Privy Council seems to have been put by that Petition in a state of vague doubt as to what its meaning was. A very easy mode of dealing with that would have been to ask what they intended by that Petition, and there would have been no difficulty in getting somebody to answer for Lampeter and say what they wore prepared to do. In the case of the Victoria University, no doubt the application of a College for admission is first made to the University, and if the University refuses there is an appeal to the Crown. Here there is a most extraordinary proposition, which is, that the Crown takes the initiative. Who is to take upon them to admit a College into the University? Is it to the President of the Council? Or, who is to petition for it? It must be assigned to some Department in the Ministry. In what way are Colleges to get in? For my own part, I do not see the great objection which has been raised by my noble Friend opposite with regard to other Colleges. If, with distinct kinds of religious teaching, they give a sufficient literary education to bring themselves within the rules of the University, why should not they be admitted? If they give a good secular education while teaching theology according to their own views, why should not their students be admitted to University degrees like other Colleges which have no religious education at all? I really think we are lingering about it without coining to the real point. I rather gathered from my noble Friend's speech that though he possessed great liberality in his own mind, he was too much swayed by the illiberality of others—that he was himself anxious to see justice done to this College, but that there were others hanging to his skirts who would not let him act as freely as he desired. I think, my Lords, we can expedite that desire by agreeing to the Motion.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): I will ask noble Lords to consider for a moment this proposal of the right rev. Prelate that assent should be withheld from this Charter. The proposal is, I think, in the highest degree unreasonable; because, mark, the question is not whether Lampeter College is to be always excluded, but whether the establishment of a University for Wales

  1335
  is to be delayed until Lampeter shall make up its mind whether it wants to be admitted or not. According to those who have supported its interests to-day, it has scarcely made up its mind yet whether it will become a part of the University. Having been so dilatory, is it fair to ask that the establishment of the University so ardently desired by the Welsh people shall be delayed until arrangements satisfactory to itself shall be made for the admission of Lampeter? I do not suppose it will be contended that Lampeter College, with its present constitution, could be made a constituent part of the University. In order that it might be so admitted, not only must Lampeter give up its Charter with the right of granting degrees, but it must be constituted on an entirely different basis, and the autocratic powers of its Visitor must be modified. If a scheme has been prepared for the admission of Lampeter, whose fault is it that it has not been published? The right rev. Prelate who is its Visitor is said to have two years ago set about drawing up a scheme; but it has not been made public. There is no document yet before the public or the Privy Council which indicates the modifications which Lampeter College is willing to submit to as a condition of its being admitted to the University. Those who support the Motion are asking you to stay your hand in creating this University, because, forsooth, the authorities of this College could not make up their minds whether they would or not take the preliminary steps and do the preliminary work necessary for inclusion in the Charter. That is the issue which your Lordships have to determine, and those who vote for the Resolution of the right rev. Prelate will say that Wales should be kept waiting for the proposed University until Lampeter has made up its mind.
  On question? their Lordships divided:—Contents 41; Not-Contents 32.
  Resolved in the affirmative.

FEES IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT CROSSasked the Lord President of the Council whether the Education Department had declined to permit the Goodwin School at Carlisle to
  1336
  charge a small fee under Section 4 of the Elementary Education Act, 1891; and, if so, whether he was aware that a large number of parents and guardians of children resident in the district were anxious for a school at which higher-class elementary education could be obtained, and also that the said school should not be entirely free? He said, he had been informed that the school was now ready to be opened, and that the Education Department had been asked to sanction a fee of 1d. per week in addition to the grant, under the 4th section of the Act of 1891, by which power was given to allow a fee to be charged where it would be for the educational benefit of the district. Those interested in the school maintained that the proposal would be for the educational benefit of the district; but he was informed that the Education Department had come to a different conclusion both on the point of accommodation in the school and benefit to the district. He would also ask the Lord President whether he would not be pleased to order further inquiry to be made, because he was told by those interested in the matter (which was all he had to guide him) that there were schools in the neighbourhood which afforded ample accommodation.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It is admitted that there is ample accommodation.
  VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, then that removed one ground of objection. With regard to the other, the educational benefit of the district, a Petition had been sent in to the Education Department stating that—
  "The undersigned parents and guardians of children living in the neighbourhood are anxious that the Trustees of the school should establish a high-class elementary day school for infants in the lower standards, and we earnestly hope the Education Department may see their way to sanction the payment of a weekly fee of 1d. in addition to the grant."
  They went on to say that they desired to have a Kindergarten teacher appointed, with the best Kindergarten and other appliances, and that they were willing to pay the fee, for they felt confident it would be of advantage to the children and the district that the school should be so carried on. That Petition was signed by a number of parents who were extremely desirous to have this education

  1337
  in addition to the elementary education which was absolutely free. If it was for the benefit of the district that this sort of high-class infant school should be established, he hoped, before the Department finally made up their minds upon the matter, they would make inquiries. Living as he did in the district, he felt confident that those who had informed the Education Department in the matter had not come to a wise conclusion. The noble Earl admitted they were wrong on the first point, and inquiry would show that they were wrong on the second.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: As to the first point, I do not know who has been wrong. The Inspector's Report is that there is sufficient accommodation. The Inspector says there is no lack of free places in the neighbourhood.
  VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, the letter he had received stated that the Education Department had declined to assent, first, because there was not sufficient accommodation in the district; and, secondly, because the new school would not confer the advantage stated.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The Report upon which we must act says that there is sufficient accommodation. Upon that point, therefore, there is nothing really to be said. The question really turns upon the second point. The Inspector states—
  "I cannot say that the school will provide any educational benefit not provided by other schools in the neighbourhood."
  It appears to be thought by some persons that if they are allowed to charge a fee they are to provide some very superior kind of school. Proper appliances and everything which is needed will be required to be provided by the Education Department free; and there is no reason why public money should be applied for the maintenance of a school which is unnecessary. If there were any educational advantage to be gained by the neighbourhood by the creation of this school, then it comes under the discretionary power of the Department as provided by the Statute. But we fail to see that any educational advantage will be afforded by this school. It is our duty to see that all schools have proper teachers and appliances, and we do not see why money should be provided out of the Public Revenue for the pur-
  1338
  pose of supplying more advantages than we are bound to give. Therefore, the general view we take is that it is not desirable that these fees should be allowed, though exceptions should, of course, be made in rare cases. There seems to be a desire in some places to use this loophole to escape, as it were, from the requirement of free education; and, therefore, the Department think it necessary to be very chary in permitting exceptions, though it would do so where it was shown to be for the advantage of the neighbourhood. Those are the grounds on which the refusal has been based, and they appear to me to be in principle sufficient.
  VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, that knowing the way in which this school had been founded at Carlisle in memory of the late Bishop Goodwin, and the strong feeling in the district, he must ask the noble Earl whether he would not direct further inquiry to be made before coming to a final decision in the matter?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I cannot promise that any inquiry will be made by the Department; but I will myself make some inquiries in the matter.
  *LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked how it was, as no amending Act had been passed since the Act giving Fee Grants, the Education Department had been able to make these requirements? They were requirements which trenched upon the privileges of the other House, and did nothing but increase the burdens of the taxpayers by adding taxes.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) (SWINE FEVER) BILL.—(No. 254.)
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.
ISLE OF MAN (CHURCH BUILDING ACTS) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH (LONDON) ACT, 1891, AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 260.)
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 260.)
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.