Lords Sitting of 24 August 1893

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—

1. Congested Districts Boards (Ireland) (No. 3).

2. Improvement of Land (Scotland).

3. Housing of the Working Classes Act (1890) Amendment.

4. Conveyance of Mails.

5. Law of Distress (Ireland).

6. Liverpool Court of Passage.

7. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15).

8. Salmon Fishery Provisional Order.

9. Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London).

10. Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Loudon) (No. 2).

11. County of the City of Glasgow.

12. Tramways Provisional Orders.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY)moved that, in the absence of the Earl of Morley, Lord Playfair be appointed to take the Chair in Committee of the Whole House for the business of the day.
Moved, "That the Lord Playfair do take the Chair in Committee of the Whole House this day in the absence of the Earl of Morley." — (The Lord President, [E, Kimberley].)
Motion agreed to.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (BLIND AND DEAF CHILDREN) BILL.—(No. 219.)

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
  On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"
  Clause 7.
  LORD SANDFORDsaid, that when this Bill was in Committee Amendments were made for the purpose of
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  relieving subscribers to the voluntary schools of what would be a considerable charge upon them. But Clause 9 rendered that concession nugatory in the case of children who were paid for by the school authorities. He, therefore, proposed the following Amendment, which was really consequential.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 3, line 41, after ("rates") to insert ("reduced by a sum equal to the contribution made by or received from parents under Section 9 (1).")—(The Lord Sandford.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I quite agree that it is necessary to make some Amendment, but I hope the noble Lord will be willing to adopt one which has been suggested by the draftsman as carrying out more completely what is intended. It is to this effect:—
  In Clause 7, to insert,—"For the purposes of this section there shall be included in local rates every sum received under this Act by a school authority from a parent and applied towards the general expenses of the school authority."
  I am sure the noble Lord will consider that that carries into effect what he desires. The draftsman assures me it will do so.
  LORD SANDFORDagreed to accept the Amendment in substitution for his own.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Amendment (Earl of Kimberley) agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 9.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I have an Amendment in this clause the object of which is that fees paid by agreement shall not be included.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 5, line 8, to leave out ("paid under the order") and insert ("received by a school authority under this section.")—(The Earl of Kimberley.")
  *LORD SANDFORDsaid, he ought, perhaps, to apologise to the Lord President for having put down his second Amendment; and if the noble Earl would kindly give an explanation of the Reference to the provisions of the Education Act it might not be necessary to move it.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It will be observed that Clause 9 says—
  "Where a school authority incur any expense under this Act in respect of any blind or deaf child, the parent of the child shall be liable to contribute towards the expenses of the child such weekly sum, if any, as, regard being had to the provisions of the Elementary Education Act, 1891, may be agreed on between the school authority and the parent."
  The object of the reference to the Education Act of 1891 is this. It is obvious that the parent of a child who is required by this Bill to attend a school in the same way as we require children to attend elementary schools should not be placed under any disadvantage as compared with the parent of a child who is not blind or deaf. The intention, therefore, is that in making any order care should be taken that nothing falls upon a parent in respect of the free education which ho would have a right to demand if the child was sent to an ordinary elementary school. It is quite obvious no one could desire that such a parent should be placed in a less favourable position. That is the whole object of the Reference, and I apprehend there will be no difficulty in providing for it.
  *LORD SANDFORDasked, as the cost was much greater in these special schools than in ordinary elementary schools, and the limit in the Act was 10s., whether it was; proposed to limit the grant to 10s.? He asked that question because he bad been unable to get any explanation of the matter, and the clause as it stood seemed unintelligible.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I cannot say exactly what sum would be allowed, but it is quite clear the intention is that the parent should not be placed at a disadvantage. If you take his child and place it in an institution against his wish, it is quite clear he should not, as regards that child, be made to pay anything which ho would not be compelled to pay if the child were sent to an ordinary school. It is true there is some additional expense; but that is thrown upon the parent by the action of the law, and it would be extremely unfair that a parent who has the misfortune to have a deaf and dumb child should be placed under a disadvantage. There are other institutions to which these children may be sent which are not elementary schools; but power is given by this Bill to make
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  grants to these schools, and those grants will be made with reference to the amounts which might be fairly taken into consideration in reference to the parent having free education for the child. I do not think there will be any difficulty in carrying it into effect.
  *LORD SANDFORDsaid, after that explanation he would not move his proposed Amendment to leave out the Reference to the Education Act and insert that regard should be had to the means of the parent.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
  LORD SANDFORDmoved, as a new clause—
  "The Education Department shall annually lay before both Houses of Parliament a report of their proceedings under this Act during the preceding year, and in that report shall give lists of the schools to which they have granted and refused certificates under the Act during the year, with their reasons for each such refusal."
  Clause agreed to.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) (SWINE FEVER) BILL.—(No. 251.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid, he felt sure their Lordships would give a Second Reading to this Bill in view of the history of swine fever in this country. Before explaining the provisions of the Bill, be would shortly refer to the history of that most malignant and contagious disease. Apparently, prior to 1862, swine fever did not possess the dismal prerogatives of a special disease, but a virulent disease affecting swine, and variously known, was recognised by the dealers at Bristol. In 1878 the Privy Council issued an Order for slaughter and quarantine with the view of dealing with the disease; and from time to time, between 1878 and 1892, Local Authorities had adopted measures for the purpose of dealing with it. But whether from want of uniformity of action or other causes the steps taken by the Local Authorities had not been successful in stamping out the disease. Some of the Local Authorities became

  929
  discouraged from those in neighbouring districts failing to support them; and altogether they became slack in administering the powers of which they had been put in possession. In February, 1892, a strong deputation waited upon Mr. Chaplin, the then President of the Board of Agriculture, and urged him to compel uniformity of action. The successful way in which pleuro-pneumonia had been grappled with by Mr. Chaplin was pointed to; and they asked, why should not swine fever be dealt with with equal success? On February 7 last a very strong Departmental Committee was appointed by the President of the Board of Agriculture to inquire into the whole question of swine fever, and as to the best way of dealing with it. After taking evidence, that very authoritative and responsible Departmental Committee came to this conclusion—they were satisfied from the evidence submitted to them that, owing to the impossibility of securing uniform action on the part of Local Authorities, swine fever could not be extirpated unless under the direction of a Central Authority; and they added that overwhelming evidence had been adduced to the effect that, by the adoption of proper measures, the disease could be extinguished in a reasonable time. The Bill was based upon the recommendations of that Departmental Committee. The Bill made any money available for dealing with pleuro-pneumonia under the Act of 1890 available also for dealing with swine fever, and all the powers at present exercisable by the Board of Agriculture in this country, and by the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council in Ireland under this Act with respect to pleuro-pneumonia and cattle, were made exercisable with respect to swine fever and swine. The compensation to be paid for any animal slaughtered under the provisions of the Bill was to be the value of the animal immediately before it was slaughtered, or, in the case of a diseased animal, one-half of the value of the animal before it became affected. With regard to finance, the Government anticipated that the money already standing to the credit of the pleuro-pneumonia account, together with a small balance of about £9,000 which remained of the moneys voted for foot-and-mouth, and the sum of £65,000 already provided in the Estimates for the
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  present year, would very nearly, if not quite, enable them to defray the cost of the administration of the Bill up to March 31 next, the end of the present financial year. In future years, under the provisions of the Bill, the net contribution of the Exchequer in any one year would he limited to £50,000, and the balance, after crediting the fund with the proceeds of the sale of carcases, would fall to be provided, as in the case of pleuro-pneumonia, out of the local taxation accounts in Great Britain and the general cattle diseases fund in Ireland. The Bill was to come into operation on November 1 next. The noble Lord hoped their Lordships would give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Ribblesdale.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

ISLE OF MAN (CHURCH BUILDING ACTS) BILL.—(No. 143.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, this Bill is for the purpose of removing a doubt which has arisen as to disabilities under the Church Building Acts.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Herschell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

THE OPIUM COMMISSION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Secretary of State for India if lie would refuse to allow the expense of an Opium Commission, which had not been asked for either by the India Office or by the Government or the people of India, to be put upon the Indian Treasury? He said he would, at the outset, state his own convictions and personal experience with regard to the opium traffic in the East, in order that he might not appear to be speaking now against them. There was, in the first place, a

  931
  great difference between the eating and smoking of opium: and it was possible to keep on eating the drug in moderation without any resultant pernicious effects. But with regard to smoking opium, he had been asked by Chinese in Singapore and Penang not to believe that any of their countrymen considered it otherwise than a vice; and once, on a vessel where the supercargo—a Chinaman—was continually smoking opium, all the people on board spoke of him as a good man, and pitied him for having fallen into that vice. There were two opinions about the opium traffic, and it seemed there was no room for a third. One opinion was that opium was an unmixed evil, except when administered by doctors, and that in forcing it upon the Chinese we had been guilty of a national sin. However, since the Treaty of Chefoo, Englishmen now living might be considered to have purged themselves from that sin. The other opinion, as he had said, was that opium was not injurious when taken in moderation; that it was a necessary of life in some countries; and that its cultivation could not be abolished in India without inflicting a loss on the Indian agricultural population, causing friction with the Native States, and sacrificing £4,000,000 annually of Indian Revenue. A large portion of India had been brought under cultivation for opium, and it was not possible to do away with the traffic without doing injury to our own subjects, to whom our first duty was due. Under the first of those opinions a national sin had to be atoned for, which could only be done by the sinners. That we had committed a national sin had been lately avowed by the Prime Minister. Under the second class of opinion the disturbance of the existing state of things was uncalled for, and was what was colloquially called a fad. Mr. Gladstone, in a part of his speech which had not been noticed by any of the papers as far as he knew, said he was obliged to object to that part of the Motion as being tainted with the sin of ambiguity, and referred to it as the wildest and most shadowy measure. It was rather singular to hear Mr. Gladstone complaining of ambiguity, and he seemed to be unconscious how much of it there was in his own speeches. He thought the House was entitled to hear from the noble Earl the Secretary of State for India which of those opinions
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  he held as to this traffic, and whether he could deny that its discontinuance must be either a duty on the part of this country or a gratification of the feelings of a section of it; and, that being so, that it ought to be paid for by this country and not by India, and that all preliminary steps to such discontinuance of the opium traffic, such as the appointment of a Royal Commission, ought to be paid for out of the British Exchequer and not out of Indian taxes. He had just received a letter which had been sent to The Daily Chronicle by the Anti-Opium Society's Secretary urging this view, and pointing out that Mr. Gladstone had apparently left the matter open for reconsideration. He, therefore, hoped, as it was still open for reconsideration, the noble Earl would be able to give a satisfactory answer that the Government did not intend to impose this cost upon India. If they did so it would be extremely unfair to the people of India. Personally, he would have been satisfied to leave the matter as it had been left in Viscount Cross's Blue Book, showing that the opium traffic had been stopped in Burma. The spread of the traffic in Bombay, and in other places where the sale of opium had increased, should be restricted. In other respects the traffic would correct itself. The last news from India was that, in consequence of the late silver legislation, the sale of opium to China was already diminishing, and in that case the Indian Government would be obliged to find some other means of raising Revenue. He would also ask his noble Friend what was the view taken by his Council, and whether he had any objection to lay any opinions expressed by any Members of that Council on the Table? Before sitting down, he felt bound to say that the Prime Minister had made an admirable and comprehensive speech on the opium traffic, and the only fault to be found with it was that the speech did not justify the conclusion arrived at—namely, an inquiry into a vast range of subjects which would occupy many years by a Royal Commission the Members of which, so far as the selection was known, did not appear to be very competent for such an inquiry, so that the proposed Commission appeared to be intended as a sop to one section of the Prime Minister's followers of an electioneering nature.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I will confine myself to answering the question which the noble Lord has asked me. I can inform him that it is proposed that the expense of the Opium Commission shall fall half upon the Indian Revenues and half upon the British Treasury—that the cost shall be divided.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: May I ask whether that has been decided? Has the proposal been agreed to?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: That is what is proposed. It is only a proposal at present. We are obliged to get it into shape before it can be arranged.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked whether the noble Earl would not give any reason why half the cost was to fall upon India? That appeared to him to require justification.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It seems to me that India is deeply interested in the settlement of the question raised by the promoters of this Commission, and, that being so, it is not unreasonable that one-half of the expense should fall on the Indian Revenues, the other half being borne by the British Treasury. That is all I can say.

THE LORD PRESIDENT'S SALARY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Secretary of State for India if he had made any progress towards obtaining a salary for the Lord President out of the British Exchequer? He said that when he last put a question to the noble Earl upon this subject of his salary as Lord President, at the same time complimenting him upon the performance of Ills duties as Secretary for India and as Lord President, he did so on behalf of the people of India. He now asked the same question on behalf of the people of this country. An opinion was generally prevalent that unpaid services were not valuable, and that the absence of salary and irresponsibility went together. The noble Earl had already told the House that he was able to discharge his functions and duties as Lord President through his Vice President; but, at the same time, the noble Earl ought not to have taken advantage of his connection with India to have borrowed a man-eating tiger
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  to turn loose into the Education Office. The noble Earl had been in the House for about 45 years. In the early part of his career he served the country with advantage in many places. He did good service in St. Petersburg. He had also boon Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and in his time there wore no riots in Belfast. His noble Friend also had always acted with responsibility and with dignity, whether as Colonial Secretary or as Secretary for India; and the way in which the Duke of Richmond had complimented him in that House upon the manner in which he had conducted a Licensing Bill would be in their Lordships' recollection. Under those circumstances, he must entreat his noble Friend not to allow his great reputation to be muddled away by the proceedings of his Vice President —he would not say "wrecked," because wrecking a reputation would only apply in such a case as the Prime Minister's—gambling away his position and sacrificing everything in his endeavours to pass the Home Rule Bill. When he last brought this subject forward he was written to by the editor of a Tory paper that it was not desirable to press the matter, because the public might not get, in the noble Earl's place, so good a man as Lord President. But he differed from that opinion, and would prefer one of Mr. Frederick Harrison's chimney sweeps as Lord President, because, if so, there would be nobody to support the Vice President in the injurious course he was pursuing. However, he would not speak further of the Vice President on this occasion, because he had a Notice on the Paper for going into the subject. His noble Friend had had so much to do with the India Office that he had become very autocratic. He would again urge the noble Earl to obtain a salary as Lord President of the Council, as distinct from his other Office of Secretary of State for India. If he would do that the grievance felt in India in this matter of the payment of salary to the Secretary of State for India would be removed. His own view was that the noble Earl should have both.
  The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I ought really to be grateful to my noble Friend for his strenuous exertions to obtain for me au increase of salary; but I do not quite perceive by what logical deduction he arrives at the

  935
  conclusion that I should have greater influence over the Vice President if I received a larger salary than I do now. The noble Lord has described the Vice President in a way not quite Parliamentary. He has gone the length of calling him a Bengal tiger. I can only suppose that the noble Lord thinks I am, as Indian Secretary, so greatly influenced by Indian traditions that I have actually chosen as Vice President a gentleman having as many qualities of a wild beast as can be found in a man. Whatever the idea of the noble Lord may be with regard to that, I regret to have to tell him that I have made no progress at all in the direction of obtaining a salary as President of the Council. I further wish to assure my noble Friend that whatever may be the correct description of the Vice President I have complete confidence in that gentleman, and fully approve the course which he has taken in educational matters.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not think the noble Earl has quite understood why objection is taken to his self-denying ordinance with respect to his salary. The result of his not receiving the salary attached to the Office of President of the Council is that he occupies a kind of detached position, and that it creates in him a merely philosophic disposition in connection with all that takes place in the Education Office. If we cannot persuade the noble Earl to obtain this salary of £2,000 a year, which, I think, would revive the noble Earl's zeal in the cause of English education, I would suggest that as the noble Earl's payment from India has such a philosophic effect upon his mind it might be well to try the experiment of paying Mr. Acland's salary out of Indian Revenues also. That course might have a useful effect upon his mind, and the result might be a lightening of the burden imposed on voluntary schools at the present moment.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, as the noble Earl seemed to think he ought not to take a salary from the British Exchequer, perhaps he should not take one from the Indian Treasury either.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The Earl OF KIMBERLEY: We propose that, as there is no important
936
business for to-morrow, the House, at its rising, should adjourn until Monday next.
Moved, "That the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday next."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
Motion agreed to.

CANAL RATES, TOLLS, AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEEDS AND LIVERPOOL CANAL) BILL.—(No. 242.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
CANAL RATES, TOLLS, AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER (NAVIGATION OF THE RIVERS AIRE AND CALDER) BILL—(No. 243.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
CANAL TOLLS AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER (GRAND JUNCTION CANAL) BILL.—(No. 244.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
CANAL TOLLS AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER (WARWICK AND BIR MINGHAM CANAL) BILL.—(No. 254.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL.—(No. 225.)
Amendments reported (according to Order); further Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
BURGHS GAS SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 226.)
Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendment, read, and discharged.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (No. 2) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

COMPANIES (WINDING-UP) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to amend Section 10 of the Companies (Winding-up) Act, 1890—Was presented by The Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 258.)
House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.