HL Deb 04 August 1893 vol 15 cc1302-12

House in Committee (according to Order.)

Clause 1.

* LORD SANDFORD

regretted that the noble Lord who presided over the Royal Commission on the Deaf and Blind in 1889 was not present to give their Lordships the benefit of his experience on the subject. On the other hand, he was glad to see opposite the noble Lord now representing the Scotch Office, who gave so much time and attention to the work of that Commission, as he had done on almost every Commission that had sat of late years, for he would probably give his assistance in carrying some of the Amendments, which were taken direct from the Report of the Commission. One point he would like to mention as a preliminary to moving the Amendments in detail—

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I beg the noble Lord's pardon for interposing, but I must remind him that it is not in Order for him to make a general speech in Committee. He must confine himself to his Amendments.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, he was only proposing to save time by one or two remarks, which would have to be made on almost all the Amendments. His Amendment on this clause was to insert an exception in the case of a deaf child under seven years of age, as recommended by the Commission. Under this Bill a deaf or blind child could be sent to school at the age of live and kept there until 16. He would not touch the case of blind children, because the sooner they were sent to school the better.

Amendment moved, In page 1, line 9, after ("itself") to insert ("except in the case of a deaf child under seven years of age").—(The Lord Sandford.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I agree to this Amendment. I would only say that this is in the Scotch Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission (No. 208) was that, subject to inspection, the control of the internal domestic management of the Institutions should be left as heretofore with the existing Governing Bodies. The clause as it stood proposed to introduce representative Governors where the Education Department thought it possible or expe- dient upon the Governing Body of every school, whether industrial or day, receiving grants from the rates or from the Department. He thought this was unnecessary. He would not go back to the recommendations of Mr. Forster in 1870, for circumstances and ideas had changed considerably since those days, but would only refer to a statement made when it was proposed that the London School Board should make an arrangement with the School Board of Liverpool to send children to their industrial schools that— The Board had not the slightest representation on the management of those schools, although they were almost entirely kept up by the contributions of the School Boards. In reply to that, Mr. Lyulph Stanley said the Board had a power which was rather more efficacious than that representation, for they could send to the schools their Board Inspectors, who made suggestions which were generally agreed to by the managers. That was the line taken by Mr. Forster in 1870 in the House of Commons, when it was suggested that every voluntary school should have representative Governors on its management. In this Bill provision was made for the representation of the Local Authorities, who sent their children to these schools, whether near or at a distance. His Amendment was based on a conversation he had had with the late Cardinal Manning as to the conditions on which rate-aid should be given, when His Eminence said that he would have no objection to the inspection of any schools receiving such aid by officers of the rate-paying Body which contributed to them; but he would certainly object very much to representatives of School Boards or other Local Authorities being added to their management. His Eminence referred to the case of industrial schools, and especially to the Roman Catholic Deaf and Dumb School at Boston Spa, in Yorkshire, where the system of inspection worked well. The Boards of Guardians of 63 Unions sent children to that Institution. They came from all quarters of the country: from Alnwick in the North, from Birkenhead and Swansea in the West, and a considerable number from London in the South. If it were claimed under this Bill that the large School Boards in Yorkshire should be represented on the management of this Roman Catholic Institution, he did not think the Department would be able to resent this claim, and they would have a number of representatives from such towns as Sheffield, Leeds, York, and Manchester placed upon the Governing Body, and over-ruling the existing Manager. He saw no necessity for that, for popular control was given by the Bill, which provided inspection by Local Authorities in the form which Mr. Lyulph Stanley and others thought was best.

Moved, to leave out the Clause.—(The Lord Sandford.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I hope the House will not agree to this Amendment. The clause as it now stands is a very mild one, far less stringent than was strongly desired by many who took part in the preparation of the Bill in the other House, because it is merely giving to the Education Department power whore they think it expedient and convenient to allow representation. In the case mentioned by the noble Lord, I should think it could not be done, because each of the 63 Boards of Guardians could not be represented on the Governing Body. But there are many cases where such representation can be provided, and it is extremely desirable, where a considerable amount of public money is to be given, that in these schools there should be some representation of those who contribute the money. As I said before, this is only a provision that it may be done. If it were compulsory the noble Lord's objections would have considerable weight; but to give a discretionary power of this kind seems to me desirable and quite in accordance with the principles of the Bill.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4.

* LORD SANDFORD

proposed to add to the clause a limitation of the powers of School Attendance Committees appointed by Boards of Guardians. It was not perhaps generally known that the number of children who would come under the operation of the Bill was comparatively small. There wore in England and Wales about 2,000 blind children between 5 and 16 years of age, of whom 1,544 were at school in 1888, leaving only 450 unprovided for. There were at present probably from 6,000 to 7,000 deaf and dumb children between the same ages, of whom 2,500 were maintained in existing Institutions, generally denominational. If any of those schools were left in existence by the Money Clauses of this Bill new accommodation to that extent would certainly not be required, and only about 3,000 seats would, at the outside, have to be supplied for deaf and dumb children throughout England and Wales. In the Bill of 1892 only School Boards were given power to build schools for these unfortunate children, because the Attendance Committees at present had no powers of providing schools at the cost of the rates. He proposed, however, to allow the Attendance Committees in boroughs and large Urban Sanitary Authorities to have that power, because there might be a considerable number of these unfortunate children in their districts. In country places, where such cases occurred very sporadically, there was no use in giving School Attendance Committees the power of providing schools which would be supplied by the District Councils referred to in this Bill, if and when appointed. As there would be under the Amendment 2,534 School Authorities left with the power of providing school accommodation, and there were only about 3,500 children to be accommodated, there was no use in giving to the 578 School Attendance Committees for Unions extended powers for making such provision. There would, on au average, be only four children to be provided for in each of the areas under their jurisdiction.

Amendment moved, In page 2, line 31, at end of Clause, to insert ("Provided that in the case of a School Attendance Committee appointed by a Board of Guardians, the powers of such Committee shall be limited to contributing to the annual maintenance of any school certified under this Act, and to the payment of the expenses of individual children attending such school, but shall not extend to the provision of school accommodation for the purposes of this Act."—(The Lord Sandford.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I observe, in the first place, that there is, in one sense, the provision the noble Lord alludes to. The clause provides that if a District Council should be established it is to exercise those powers. Of course, that is assuming what may not come to pass—it is as well to notice that; but in the interval the School Attendance Committee is to act. But I think there is some misapprehension in this matter. I admit that at first I entertained some objection to the clause on the ground that it did not seem to me a School Attendance Committee was exactly the kind of Body to spend the ratepayers' money; but I found that it was not the School Attendance Committee which would have the discretion in the matter, and that the Authority was to be either the Board of Guardians, the Borough Council, or the Urban Sanitary Authority, appointing the School Attendance Committee, and acting through it. When I referred to the Act under which these Committees are appointed, I found that no expenditure whatever can be incurred without authority from the Board of Guardians, and, in point of fact, in all matters involving expenditure it is the Board of Guardians who will impose the taxation, and not the School Attendance Committee. All that is intended is that they are to use the latter as the Body best acquainted with the subject for the purpose of setting the matter in motion. As regards the general observation of the noble Lord, that there is no necessity to do this, I think it is necessary. It seems to me that when you are enacting provisions requiring schools for deaf and blind children it is absolutely necessary those enactments should be extended to the whole Kingdom. What the noble Lord proposes is that in those districts, which are very numerous, where there are School Attendance Committees, they shall have no power to erect a school for this purpose. My own experience in these matters is that it is very rarely they will do so—that these Committees and rural Boards of Guardians will not incur expense unnecessarily. No doubt there will be cases where it is absolutely unnecessary, and they will, as a matter of course, contribute to some other schools; but there may be cases where there are no means of providing for the education of these children except by the erection of schools, and this clause as now framed will give that power. It seems to me to be giving power which certainly ought to be lodged somewhere, and that it is better it should be done in this way.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5.

LORD SANDFORD moved the insertion of the following clause from the Bill of the late Government:—

Amendment moved, In page 2, line 39, to insert new sub-section: ((2.) "In granting or withholding their consent under this section the Education Department shall take into consideration the sufficiency of the accommodation available for blind and deaf children in existing schools.")

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I must say I do not quite see the necessity for this. The clause runs that the Department is to exercise the power in any case in which the exercise of that power appears to the Department to be expedient. That appears to me to cover the case, because, of course, one of the grounds upon which the matter would be determined would be the accommodation available. It seems to me to follow almost as a matter of course, and I do not see any reason for specifying these particular things. The whole question would turn upon whether there was or was not sufficient accommodation. I imagine that the course taken would be that the Department would require from the persons applying a full statement of the grounds upon which it was alleged that the accommodation was not available, and they would thereupon make inquiry in order to ascertain if it was the case that accommodation did not exist; and I cannot see in the least why these particular things should be singled out.

VISCOUNT CROSS

This Amendment of the noble Lord would, at all events, point out to the Department that it is their special duty to look after these particular cases.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I do not see why it is necessary, because it seems to me that the provision points that out of itself, almost by necessary implication.

On Question? their Lordships divided:—Contents 23; Not Contents 18.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, this was one of the most important and serious clauses in the Bill. The Lord President had been applied to on this subject by his noble and learned Friend Lord Morris, at whose request he had taken up the question. When moving the Second Reading the Lord President had promised to consider whether the clause should not be amended, as the words were of rather doubtful interpretation.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I might, perhaps, save the noble Lord some trouble by explaining one little point, not interfering with the Amendment. I did not like to answer the other night, though I thought the words somewhat ambiguous; but I find that arises entirely from the word "or" being used instead of "and." I think the noble Lord will at once see the effect of that. It is simply a verbal error.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, that substituting "and" for "or," the clause as it stood imposed upon the managers of these Institutions, which had done so much good work in times past, and which, he hoped, would be recognised under the Bill, though no provision was made for their immediate certification, too great a burden. He would take the case of the Roman Catholic school at Boston Spa, which he had already referred to. It appeared from the Report of the Royal Commission that the cost per head of educating the deaf and dumb was £7 19s. 10d.—a large sum; but for the instruction of those poor children a considerable number of teachers were required. For maintenance, food, and clothing in those Institutions generally the cost was £16 18s., the total charge being £24 17s. 10d. At Boston Spa there were 150 scholars, and the cost was £22 6s. 6d. This reduction upon the general average was owing to the devoted Sisters of Charity (St. Vincent de Paul) giving their services almost gratuitously. The children's payments amounted to £16 0s. 2d., leaving £6 6s. 4d. to be supplied by voluntary effort. Last year the voluntary contributions, which, like those to similar Institutions throughout the country, had fallen off, amounted to £4 17s. If the parents' payments were not to be taken into account, and one-third of the cost of the school was to be supplied by voluntary effort, instead of £4 17s., £7 8s. 10d. would be required. From the falling-off in contributions, the schools were already getting into debt, and to require the larger sum to be sup- plied pointed to the closing of those valuable Institutions altogether. On the other hand, one-fifth would only amount to £4 9s. 3d., which the Institutions would be able to obtain and to go on flourishing.

Amendment moved, in page 3, line 39, to leave out ("third") and insert ("fifth").—(The Lord Sandford.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I am sorry I cannot consent to the substitution of one-fifth. The object of the clause is to prevent the schools being supported practically by public money alone—that there shall be a substantial contribution towards the management of these schools. That seems to me to be a proper provision, and I think one-third is right. I cannot agree to the substitution of one-fifth; but if the noble Lord does not press that, I shall not resist the next Amendment. It was intended to exclude from the Bill the calculation of the parents' payments for the children boarded, lodged, and educated at the schools; but on that point, if the noble Lord does not press the one-fifth instead of one-third—whilst I know that in the Committee of the House of Commons, which inserted the words, a good deal of importance was attached to them, as they wore not in the original Bill—I shall not press for their retention.

VISCOUNT CROSS

As far as the last observation of the noble Lord is concerned, I entirely agree. I may say that I have received a letter from Birmingham, where they feel very strongly on the matter, stating that it would have the effect of injuring the Institution there, which is doing very good work.

* LORD PLAYFAIR

said, as Chairman of the Managing Committee of the largest Blind Institution in the country—that at Norwood—he could state that they were not afraid of one-third, which they considered was a fair test to put upon such an Institution.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, if his second Amendment were accepted, he would not press the reduction to one-fifth.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

Then the noble Lord's next Amendment will be agreed to.

Amendment moved, In lines 39, 40, and 41, to leave out ("or the payment made by the parent of the children boarded and lodged or educated in the school.")—(The Lord Sandford.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9.

* LORD SANDFORD

asked for an explanation of the words "regard being had to the provisions of the Education Act, 1891."

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I am afraid that point has escaped me, and I cannot answer it off-hand. If the noble Lord will allow me to answer it in Standing Committee, I will then give him an explanation, but at present I do not feel quite sure what it is.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10.

* LORD SANDFORD

proposed to insert the words "or boarding with any person," as parents would no doubt wish to have a voice in the selection of the persons with whom their children were to be placed.

Amendment moved, in page 5, line 17, after ("school") to insert ("or boarding with any person").—(The Lord Sandford.)

* LORD HALSBURY

The Local Authority might nominate some person to whose care the parent would not like to confide his child.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

The Bill provides in a previous clause that they are to arrange, if possible, for the boarding-out being with some person belonging to the religious persuasion of the parent. That, of course, is desirable; but I think if these words were inserted they might give rise to difficulties in cases of boarding-out orphans and similar cases. If due care is taken as to the religious education, that, I think, will be sufficient. This might give rise sometimes to a great deal of embarrassment if it entailed an inquiry what were the religious persuasions of parents.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12.

Amendment moved, in page 5, line 31, after ("education") to insert ("and "industrial training.")—(The Lord Sandford.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I think I can explain to the noble Lord that there is no occasion for this Amendment, because the Definition Clause includes what he intends. That clause says at line 16— The expression 'elementary education' may include industrial training, whether given in the school which the child attends or not. I am informed by the draftsman that that is intended.

* LORD SANDFORD

said, the Amendment followed the terms of the Scotch Act, but he had overlooked this Definition Clause.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 13.

Verbal Amendments.

Clauses 14 to 17, inclusive, agreed to.

Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 241.)