Lords Sitting of 1 August 1893

FRANCE AND SIAM.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I venture to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as I intimated yesterday, whether he can state to the House the precise terms which Siam has accepted from France?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Earl of ROSEBERY): My Lords, Siam has accepted two different sets of terms at two different times. There was the first ultimatum, which was accepted by Siam at about half-past 10 o'clock on Saturday morning, and then there was an acceptance of the terms which, in the opinion of the French Government, were ancillary to the ultimatum already presented. Those terms I have this afternoon received information are also accepted. The first ultimatum runs as follows:—
"(1) Recognition of the rights of Cambodia and Annam to left bank of River Mekong and the Islands; (2) the Siamese shall evacuate, within one month's time, any posts which are there held by them; (3) satisfaction for the various acts of aggression against French ships and sailors in the River Menam and against French subjects in Siam; (1) pecuniary indemnities to the families of the victims and punishment of the culprits; (5) for various damages inflicted on French subjects indemnities of 2,000,000f.; (6) as a guarantee for the claims under Clauses 4 and 5, the sum of 3,000,000f, in dollars shall be at once deposited, or, in default, the farming of the taxes of Siemreap and Battambong shad be assigned to the French."
The terms of the second ultimatum accepted to-day were these—
"(1) French to occupy Port and River of Chantaboon pending evacuation of left bank of Mekong by Siam; (2) no Siamese troops to be allowed within 25 kilometres of Mekong; (3) Siam not to have armed vessels on Tonlesap Lake; (4) French reserve right to establish Consulates at Nan and Korat."
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Has the noble Earl any knowledge of the precise definition of the left bank of the Mekong?
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I cannot give any information as to the left bank of the Mekong further than that con-
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tained in the ultimatum, and that is sufficiently broad. It may relieve the noble Marquess's anxiety to know that we have signed an agreement in Paris which provides for the establishment of a neutral zone, or buffer territory, between our territory in the Indo-Chinese Peninsula and that recently taken by France.
LORD LAMINGTON: I beg to ask the noble Earl whether the Island of Samit, occupied by the French, is the Island of that name situated about the 103rd degree of longitude East, or that lying about the 101st degree? There are two Islands of the same name, and it makes a great difference, as in the former case the Island would be lying in what are distinctly Siamese, while the other is in Cambodian, waters. Further, I desire to ask whether there is any International precedent for prohibiting the Siamese from erecting forts anywhere on the right bank of the Mekong; whether this prohibition does not, ipso facto, give the French powers of interference over territory strictly belonging to Siam; and whether, in view of the State of Luang Prabang being situated on either bank of the Mekong, and of the total lack of evidence that Annam has ever had jurisdiction over the country, the Government will not endeavour to prevent its cession to France, and what the Government propose to do with regard to the portion lying on the right, or western, bank of the Mekong River?
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My noble Friend puts a question to me as he would put a penny in the slot, and he evidently expects equally satisfactory results. I must ask him to give notice of his question.
THE EARL OF DUDLEYasked the noble Earl whether there was any information at the Foreign Office which corresponded at all with the startling statements by telegraph published in The Daily News of that morning; if so, how far; and whether it was true that the French Admiral had ordered Her Majesty's cruiser Pallas and Her Majesty's gunboat Swift to proceed outside the limits of the blockade as newly defined?
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: There is no truth in the rumour to which the noble Earl has referred. As regards the general scope of the information in The Daily News, I have many responsibilities

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upon me, and I am not willing to incur any more. I think the responsibility for all the news that appears in even so generally well-informed a paper is more than I can bear. I notice that in the paragraph in The Daily News to which the noble Earl has referred the last item states that "the attitude of Captain Jones, the British Minister, remains Sphinx-like." Obviously, I cannot either corroborate or deny that.

QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF MEATHasked Her Majesty's Government whether on the occasion of the next revision of the Education Code they would lay greater stress on the teaching of physical exercises, of civic duty, and (especially in the case of girls) of the history and geography of the British Empire? He reminded the House that he had on two occasions introduced a Bill for facilitating and encouraging the teaching of physical exercises in Board and voluntary schools, and had on other occasions drawn their Lordships' attention to the necessity of teaching cookery, civic duty, and other subjects. He was glad to find, from the Vice President's interesting speech last night with regard to the educational policy of the Government, that the recommendations he had made from time to time had been adopted, and that the Vice President was in favour of teaching physical exercises in our schools. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would go beyond that simple expression of opinion, and would encourage managers and teachers by pecuniary inducements, and by putting these subjects on a compulsory basis. It was satisfactory to find, from the Vice President's speech, that 22,000 more girls than last year were being taught cookery; and he also rejoiced to find that a Bill was about to be introduced by the Government to prevent children being taken from school before the age—11—at which it was first permissible for them to enter factories. Having spoken at length on several occasions upon the necessity of physical education, he would only now express the hope that Her Majesty's Government would go beyond their evidently beneficent attitude on that subject. As to the teaching of civic
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duty, he would like to have children taught what would be their duties as citizens, and what were the privileges which would devolve upon them and the responsibilities which they would have to discharge. An excellent book on the subject had been published by Cassells, the author being a Member of the other House, and he hoped that it would be recommended to the managers of schools for use. In reference to the teaching of the history and geography of the British Empire, it was a startling fact that the great majority of girls in Board schools were never taught geography. This was a consequence of the arrangements regarding class subjects, of which geography was one; and it was not permissible for teachers to take up more than two of them. Needlework was also included among the class subjects, and it was quite rightly taken up for girls by all sensible school-mistresses, leaving a choice between grammar, elementary science, and geography for the remaining subject. The result was that if history was taken up geography was dropped, and vice versâ. He had no desire in the least that these unfortunate children should be taught a larger number of subjects—they were taught quite enough; but he would like to see a better system and better arrangements adopted for teaching them what would be useful to them in after-life. The history and geography now taught them was perfectly useless to them, the former beginning generally at the Roman Invasion down to the time of the Stuarts, while some of the children only got as far as the Tudors. The rising generation should be taught the history of more modern times, dealing with the rise and progress of our Empire. That would be far more useful to them, as future citizens, than to know how the Ancient Britons painted themselves, or how the Romans acted when they got into Britain. He suggested that needlework should cease to be a class subject, and be made compulsory, as drawing was for boys. The removal of needlework from the list of class subjects would give girls the opportunity of studying geography or history in its place. They should be able to take up needlework and get 2s. a head for it, as boys did for drawing. He was glad that grammar was no longer compulsory. Grammar ought not to be compulsory.

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Many masters of the English language had never studied grammar. He had never known any of the poor children in the Board schools any the better for it, either as regarded dropping their h's or the construction of sentences. He hoped, therefore, grammar would tie quietly dropped, and that the three class subjects would be history, geography, and elementary science. As he had said, the history taught ought to be the modern portion, which related to the growth of our Empire and the extension of our Colonies. Children ought to be able to answer such questions as, "What is the value to us of our Colonies?" But very few, indeed, could do so. Perhaps some of their Lordships might not be able to answer the question off-hand; but the majority would be able to give some good reason why our Empire had grown up, and why it was worth preserving. If it were only for the sake of the trade which followed the flag, that was a good reason. The children should be taught that we are dependent for food upon our Colonies and upon foreign countries; and why should they not be taught something of the productions of those Colonies, and the advantage to us in having purchasers abroad for our manufactures. No prudent guardians would bring up the heir to a large estate without telling him all about its extent and capabilities of development. In the same way the State ought to take care that the children of the country, who would be its rulers some day, did not grow up in ignorance of the vastness of the Empire, the responsibilities attaching to those who belonged to it, and the main principles of our foreign and colonial policy. His suggestions were, that the earning of the higher grant should be dependent upon the teaching of physical exercises; that needlework should be made a compulsory subject for girls as drawing was for boys; that boys and girls should be taught their civic duties; and that the girls, especially, should be taught the history and geography of the British Empire.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA(The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My noble Friend has hardly, in his Notice, prepared me for the wide discussion he has entered into, which is really a discussion of the Code as regards class subjects. I happen to
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have that document here. It is very interesting, and if I thought your Lordships would like to listen to my particular views in addition to those of the noble Earl, I might make a very long speech. Before I answer the noble Earl's question, I will make an observation upon one or two points which he has alluded to. A great deal of what the noble Earl has said is well worthy of attention. With regard to the teaching of history, I must confess I somewhat sympathise with him. When I look at the Code I find the children are to be taught 12 stories or episodes from early English history; they learn about the Ancient Britons, the introduction of Christianity, Alfred the Great, Harold and the Norman Conquest, Hereward, Becket, the history of the Crusades, Magna Charta, De Montford and the House of Commons, the Black Prince, and other subjects of early English history; and, therefore, I am not astonished that they seldom or never get to the most useful part of the programme—namely, the Hanoverian period. With regard to teaching them the history of the acquisition and growth of the Colonies of Great Britain, and of the eminent persons and citizens and prominent events of modern times, I certainly think that education is not complete without a knowledge of our English history. We should, if possible, give the children an education in these things. As to some of the teaching of early history, it rather puts one in mind of Alice in Wonderland when they wanted to dry up the pool of water, and she suggested that the driest thing that could be found for the purpose was the history of Edwin and Morcar. Indeed, I rather expected to find the Merovingian Kings referred to here, that being practically the chief knowledge which a good many get of French history. The chief difficulty in these matters is to select the most important subjects. The children should be taught those subjects which are more immediately useful to them; and great care, I agree with the noble Earl, should be taken to employ their time on the subjects which it is more important for them to know. I must guard myself, however, against it being supposed that I am such an educational reformer that I should wish to criticise this elaborate Education Code; and the question what subjects should be taught must, after all,

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be a matter for educational experts; it is beyond my powers. As to the desirability of physical exercises for children in towns, there can hardly be two opinions. I do not myself approve of the extraordinary and exaggerated devotion to physical and athletic exercises prevalent in our schools. Indeed, I think it is a great misfortune that those exercises are carried to such an absurd excess. But that, probably, is not the kind of physical exercise which the noble Earl desires. Children in great towns, however, are certainly the better for a certain amount of physical exercise, which is necessary for the development of their bodies. I cannot give the noble Earl any special promise in the matter, except to say that in the preparation of the New Code the subject will not be lost sight of. That girls should learn useful needlework is a matter admitting of no doubt. As far as I understand the matter, it is less useful to girls at the present day to learn embroidery, or work at which they cannot earn a living, than that they should be taught to do the kind of needlework which is required in the family. I have beard constant complaints that while they are taught a great deal in the elementary schools about the Norman Conquest and such things, instruction in matters of this kind do not receive sufficient attention. I do not, however, wish to confine the education of the poor to elementary subjects; but where there is very little time it is wise to give them that kind of education which will be useful to them in after life. As to instruction in civic duty, as my noble Friend is aware, there has been a movement on the subject; but it was thought better to confine it to the rather older children. At present the Code provided for civic duties being a subject of optional instruction under the Night School Acts, which apply to older children. With regard to the smaller children, I am not prepared to say we can introduce it. Then, with regard to geography, there is no distinction made between hoys and girls, and I am not sure that it would be possible to make it compulsory, as some discretion must be left to the teachers. The Department fully recognise that special stress should be laid on instruction in the geography of our own Colonies and Empire. I am inclined to think myself that a far more in-
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telligent study of geography would be introduced if the children were given practical lessons in the geography of their own localities. They would then understand better what geography really means than by merely being shown maps which they are not well versed in, and which do not convey much to their minds. The noble Earl has made some most interesting remarks, and I can assure him that they will receive the attention of the Department.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he hoped the Department would persevere in their intentions with regard to drill in spite of the nervous susceptibilities of the Peace Society. The actual money value of drill to labourers could hardly be overstated. Sir Joseph Whitworth, or his foreman, stated long ago, in giving evidence, that a man was worth at least 1s. 6d. a week more if he was proficient in drill when heavy machinery required to be moved and handled; and that they would rather risk doing work under-banded than be encumbered with willing but unskilled labourers. The habit of prompt obedience was a most useful part of education.

CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACTS (VALUERS AND ASSESSORS).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL THE DUKE OF ARGYLL moved for a Return showing—
  "1.) The names of all the valuers and assessors hitherto appointed by the Commissioners under Section 17 of 'The Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act. 1886,' and Section 1, Sub-section 1, of the amending Act of 1888; (2) their previous profession or occupation; and (3) the amount paid to each for his services."
  Motion agreed to.
  Return ordered to be laid before the House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should like to ask the noble Earl opposite whether he has come to any resolution with respect to the future Sittings of the House? There is not very much for us to do, and I think it would be desirable to adjourn for a short period.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I propose, if agreeable to the House, that we should adjourn after the Sitting next Tuesday for a fortnight—that is to say,

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from Tuesday, the 8th, to Tuesday, the 22nd. It was arranged to-day that the Standing Committee should sit again on Thursday, and again on the following Tuesday; and I hope that then Bills will be sufficiently advanced, and that we may fairly, in the present state of business, adjourn for a fortnight.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I presume that does not exclude the idea of a further subsequent Adjournment if the state of affairs should render it expedient?
THE EARL of KIMBERLEY: That will be a matter for consideration.

LONDON IMPROVEMENTS BILL.
The Queen's consent, and the consent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales in right of his Duchy of Cornwall, signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 15) BILL.—(No. 164.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
SALMON FISHERY PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL [H.L.]—(No. 189.)
Returned from the Commons agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF SELECTION FOR THE STANDING COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Committee have added the Lord Esher to the Committee for the consideration of the Supreme Court of Judicature Bill [H.L.] and the Land Transfer Bill [H.L.]; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
PRIVATE BILLS.
Standing Orders considered and amended, and to be printed as amended. [No. 228.]

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL.—(No. 229.)
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Select Committee, made: Further Amendments made: Standing Com-
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mittee negatived: The Report of Amendments to be received on Friday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 229.]

TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
LAW OF COMMONS AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]—(No. 200.)
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
LIVERPOOL COURT OF PASSAGE BILL. (No. 210.)
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
STATUTE LAW REVISION (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]—(No. 222.)
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LAND TRANSFER BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 230.)
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 231.)
TRUST INVESTMENT BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 232.)
CONVEYANCE OF MAILS BILL.—(No. 223.)
Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment: The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House to be received on Thursday next.

HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES ACT (1890) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 208.)
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
House adjourned at ten minutes past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Eleven o'clock.