§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, I beg to ask the Lord Chancellor whether, having regard to the facts submitted to him showing that only twenty-five per cent. of the Volunteer non-commissioned officers, and eight per cent. of the privates are liable for jury service, and that consequently the duties of those remaining subject to jury service would not be materially increased by their exemption, he can see his way to extend to them the concession he has already announced his intention to propose in the case of Volunteer officers; and when the proposed measure dealing with the jury laws will be introduced? The facts of the case are briefly these. On the 14th March, in another place, the Minister for War was asked as to what exemption could be given from jury service to officers and men serving in the Volunteers; and he replied, I believe, that the Lord Chancellor was willing to see whether any alteration could be made in the Jury Laws, so as to exempt the officers, but could not see his way to extending the same privilege to non-commissioned officers and privates of the Force. On a subsequent date, the 4th April I think, a deputation of officers and men of Volunteer battalions waited upon the Lord Chancellor to ask him if he could extend the privilege as desired, and they based their claim partly on the fact that of the non-commissioned officers and privates liable to serve on juries, there were only twenty-five per cent. of non-commissioned officers, and about eight per cent. of privates. I was present at the deputation, and to the best of my recollection the Lord Chancellor replied to us very kindly that he would take the matter into consideration, but that the numbers of those who were exempted from jury service was already very large, and he hesitated to make an increase in the number. Now, my Lords, it seems to me that the number is comparatively small, only 25 per cent. of non-commissioned officers, and 8 per cent. of the privates out of a Force of about 200,000 men; and, even if the number was considerably larger, it still has to be considered that the 1421 number of those who are liable to serve on juries is still extremely large, and that the reduction comparatively is not a very great one. The whole principle, I take it, that underlies the exemption from service upon a jury, is that jury service is a public duty which those who are capable of performing are expected to perform, and that those who are exempted perform some other public function, which is considered to exonerate them from a duty which would otherwise fall upon them. My Lords, there is perhaps no more important public duty than that of defending the country in which we live; and while, all through the history of England, there has been a very strong prejudice against a standing Army, and an insuperable one against anything like Conscription, it has always been recognised that there is a duty, which might on occasion be enforced, of serving in the more Civil Force of the country; and, while the duty of serving upon a jury has always been very strictly enforced, it has, fortunately, not been necessary to enforce with equal strictness the duty of serving in the ranks in defence of the country. But, still, it is an equally important duty, and I think that those who come forward, and voluntarily take upon themselves that duty in a patriotic spirit, are entitled to some consideration in respect of the services which they perform; and I trust that the Lord Chancellor will be able to see his way to exempt them from serving upon juries in consideration of the time, which is infinitely greater than that which they would be liable to spend in performing duties as jurymen, which they devote to performing an important and onerous public duty, and that he will be able to afford to them the boon of being exempted from a public service, from which I say they have earned an exemption, and also on the ground that the boon so extended to them will encourage others to take up a very important duty for the welfare and safety of the country.
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSBefore my noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor, answers this question, which I venture to think is one of very great public importance, I should like to say a few words. I think there will be a 1422 general agreement in your Lordships' House that it is desirable, wherever possible, to do what can be done to give permanence and efficiency to the Volunteer Force. It would be too much to say that our Army is in a bad state, but your Lordships must have observed during the winter, and during the Recess, how much public attention was directed towards the state of the Army—directed by letters, directed by speeches ending in an inquiry into recruiting under my noble Friend Lord Wantage. I think the feeling is that the Army is deficient, mainly in the supply of able-bodied recruits, both in number, and in quality. My Lords, that results from one of two causes; either that you have not compulsion to make men enter the Army, or that the inducements you hold out are insufficient; and if any man wants to see what sufficient inducements will do in the way of producing a good article, let him go to the Wellington Barracks and see the police recruits drilled there, and he will see what full, good pay, and pension, with no deductions, will bring about. Let him go to the barracks at the back of St. George's, where the recruits that are brought into the Army in this district are passed by the medical officer, and there he will see what sort of article you get for a shilling a day with deductions. It was only the other day that a noble relative of mine had to defend in the House of Commons the enlistment of a boy of 14. You have recruits, according to the best military opinion, who are really much too young for the work. You cannot, my Lords, get an effective five-year-old fit for work for the price that you would pay for a three-year-old,—and that is equally the case with men. The result is that the Home Army, certainly, is not in the state of efficiency that it ought to be. My own belief is that it is only by applying the principle of compulsion to the Militia, and keeping the Militia full, that you can hope to keep your Army full. And that was the opinion of your Lordships in 1883 when you passed this Resolution which I moved, and in which I was supported by your Lordships by a majority—
That, having regard to the present defective military organisation, it is essential that the Militia be forthwith recruited to their 1423 established strength, and that the Militia Reserve should, as intended by its originator, the late General Peel, and as recommended by the Militia Committee of 1877, be borne in excess of the Militia establishment.That Resolution, I believe, goes to the root of the whole matter as regards the manning of the Army; it was opposed by Army officials then in office, and by Army officials who had been in office; but your Lordships thought it a reasonable proposition, and carried it. My Lords, if you have your Army in its present state, if your conditions do not admit of compulsion for home defence—that is the enforcing of the Ballot for the Militia, and if, on the other hand, sufficient pay is not given to induce recruits, you are left in the present unsatisfactory state, that for home defence in the main, you rely upon the Volunteer Force. I am always filled with astonishment that you should find 200,000 men who patriotically give up their time and service to the country without any compulsion, and who submit yearly almost to more and more stringent regulations, and more severe tests, and drill. But if that is so, and if this has gone on for thirty years, I think when an occasional opportunity arises, such as that brought forward by my noble Friend, it is only right and proper that those who have the care of the State should give whatever they legitimately can in the way of favour and privileges to a Force thus served. Unquestionably what the Force is most deficient in is officers, and if, by any possibility, it may be that you can by this little bribe induce men to come into the Force, and become officers, so much the better; you will have done a really good service. If it throws a very infinitesimal amount more duty upon those who do not join the Force, I say serve them right for not serving in the Volunteer Corps. I, therefore, hope that my noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor, will readily assent to bringing in a Bill for this purpose, and not wait to deal with the whole jury system. A Bill of one clause, I think, would be sufficient to exempt, at any rate, Volunteer officers from service on juries.
THE EARL OF PEMBROKE AND MONTGOMERYMy Lords, I should like to add my entreaties to those that 1424 have already been made, and I hope that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will see his way to granting this request. I look upon this proposal as of great value, not merely for the privilege itself, but because it would be a recognition of the public service which is done by the Volunteers, and for the effect that that recognition would have upon the minds of the public. In a great many cases employers now look upon volunteering as only an amusement, and recreation, in which men join for their own pleasure; and, therefore, they naturally are somewhat unwilling to afford their men time. I think that a measure of this kind, which recognises the public nature of the service performed by the volunteer, would have a very good effect in altering public opinion upon that point.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)My Lords, I am afraid my answer will not satisfy any of my noble Friends who have addressed your Lordships. I am afraid I must first of all ask a question before I give a final answer on the subject. I want to know what is exactly meant by exemption from jury service? Does it mean exemption during any period when the particular volunteer is being employed in exercise or drill, or does it mean that the volunteer by that hypothesis is to be struck off the jury list every year so that he will be entirely exempt from jury service altogether?
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHThe latter.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI thought that was what was in the noble Lord's mind. Just let us observe what we are going to do! It is not quite so simple a matter as would appear to the noble Lords. Is it to be the fact that he is to be an efficient volunteer?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI hear the noble Lord say "yes." Will he allow me to ask him in what way the Magistrates who settle the jury lists are to settle the question, if the volunteer is not to be a person who nominally belongs to the Volunteers, but is to be an efficient volunteer? If the period of exemption had reference to the period when he was 1425 actually engaged as a volunteer, he would be able to prove that exemption; but if he is to be struck off the list altogether, I can imagine a very large accession to the Volunteer Force at the period when the Jury Lists are made out; I am afraid they would not all be ready to adopt the practice of Volunteers afterwards. That is one great difficulty that I have in the matter. Then my Lords, what are you to do about the Militia; are they to be included in the same exemption?
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSNo.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI do not see why not. The Militia are called out at certain periods of the year, and I have no doubt they have a fair claim during those periods in which they are performing their public duty.
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSThey are a paid Force.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORAgain the noble Lord must remember that in proportion as you diminish the number of persons on the Jury List you are throwing an increased burden on those who remain. That is a very serious question to consider; and I, for one, protest against the sort of notion that the exemptions which are to be found in the Jury List at present have any relation to what one noble Lord called a little bribe, another called an inducement, and a third called a recognition. The reason why persons are exempted from performing their duties as jurymen is that the duties they have to perform elsewhere are supposed to be inconsistent with the duties of a juryman, and that therefore they cannot perform both duties. If therefore the claim is limited to any reasonable amount, either of exercises, or drill, or calling out of the Volunteers in any way, I shall be able to regard the matter in a different spirit, because then it would be inconsistent with the duty that a juryman is supposed to discharge. But where the demand is that the name should absolutely be struck off at the time the Jury Lists are being settled, that seems to me to raise so many difficult questions of detail that I could not do it certainly in a Bill of a single clause. I can only say that any reluctance that I have is not at all that I do not share to the full, as much as any noble Lord, in 1426 admiration of the Volunteer Force who have so readily come forward to perform a public duty, and perform it gratuitously; but the difficulty is in dealing with the questions of detail so that such privileges as are asked for might not be abused and made use of, not for the purposes for which they are asked, but for evading a great, serious and solemn duty that a great number of persons in the State are compelled to perform at great sacrifice to themselves. For my part, I would gladly see the Jury List fortified and aided by such men as form the Volunteer Force, and I should be very sorry that such men should not aid in the administration of justice in the country. My Lords, I have been endeavouring to solve this problem, but I assure the noble Lord that, with every desire to exempt the Volunteer Force, I have not yet found any mode by which I could reconcile the conflicting claims, and I cannot promise any immediate solution of the question.
§ *LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHI do not know whether I may be allowed briefly to reply to the question that the Lord Chancellor has put to me on one point. It is desired of course that the exemption should be restricted entirely to an efficient Volunteer. There is no possible difficulty in discovering, who is, and who is not, an efficient Volunteer. A man would have to serve one year before he could have any right to claim exemption, and at the end of that time he would have to prove that he had been an efficient Volunteer; his name is returned year by year as an efficient Volunteer, and the capitation grant is given by the Government in consideration of his services as an efficient Volunteer; and it is perfectly easy for a man to prove whether he is or is not an efficient Volunteer.
§ EARL SPENCERI should like to say, in consequence of what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, that I have considerable sympathy with my noble Friend who has brought forward this Motion; but I quite admit that there is great force in what the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack said as to the necessity of keeping men of 1427 this sort on the Jury List. Supposing a Volunteer was in camp during the Assizes, at the present moment, if he were summoned, he would be bound, I suppose, to attend or would be fined; but the noble and learned Lord I understand would make that concession at all events, and say that if he were actually doing duty with the Volunteers he should be exempt from serving on a Jury.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORHear! Hear!