Lords Sitting of 15 March 1892

POOR LAW (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 46.)
CLERGY DISCIPLINE (IMMORALITY) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments: The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the whole House and by the Standing Committee to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 47.)
GAMING ACT, 1845, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.
COLONIAL PROBATES BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment: The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 48.)

PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
Ordered—
That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 21st day of June next:
That no Bill originating in this House confirming any provisional order in pursuance of a report of the Board of Agriculture relating to the enclosure or regulation of a common, or confirming any scheme certified by the said Board relating to a Metropolitan common, or confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a first time after Thursday the 12th day of May next:
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That no Bill originating in this House confirming any provisional order or provisional certificate shall be read a first time after Thursday the 12th day of May next:
That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any provisional order in pursuance of a report of the Board of Agriculture relating to the enclosure or regulation of a common, or confirming any scheme certified by the said Board relating to a Metropolitan common, or confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 28th day of June next:
That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any provisional order or provisional certificate shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 28th day of June next:
That when a Bill shall have passed this House with amendments these orders shall not apply to any new Bill sent up from the House of Commons which the Chairman of Committees shall report to the House is substantially the same as the Bill so amended:
That this House will not receive any petition for a Private Bill after Tuesday the 3rd day of May next, unless such Private Bill shall have been approved by the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice; nor any petition for a Private Bill approved by the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice after Tuesday the 10th day of May next:
That this House will not receive any report from the Judges upon petitions presented to this House for Private Bills after Tuesday the 10th day of May next:
Ordered, That the said orders be printed and published, and affixed on the doors of this House and Westminster Hall. (No. 49.)

HORSE BREEDING—IRELAND.
QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, I rise to ask a question of my noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal, of which I have already given him private notice. I desire to ask him whether his attention has been drawn to several paragraphs in the newspapers during the last two or three days telling us about a tour which Mr. Burdett-Coutts, M.P., is at present making in the West of Ireland, I believe at the request of the Congested Districts Board, and accompanied by Mr. Wrench, a member of that Board and also one of the Land Commissioners. The object of this tour, according to the newspapers, is with a view to seeing what steps can best be taken for improving the breed of horses in these congested districts in the possession of small landowners, and

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perhaps, as the most important paragraph is a very short one, your Lordships will allow me to read it. This paragraph appeared on the 10th of March in the Daily News:—
"An attempt is about to be made by the Government to improve the breeds of horses in the possession of the small farmers in the congested districts of Ireland. At the request of the Congested Districts Board, Mr. Burdett-Coutts, M.P., in company with one of the Irish Land Commissioners, will this week start on a tour through the poorest parts of Galway, Mayo, and Connemara, and arrangements have been made for farmers to bring their stock to different points on the route in order that Mr. Burdett-Coutts may be enabled to form a practical opinion upon the present condition of the native breeds, and advise as to the best means of improving them."
My Lords, there is such a strong official colour about that paragraph, and it so completely identifies Mr. Burdett-Coutts with Her Majesty's Government that, without going at all into the question of horse breeding in Ireland, beyond congratulating the Government on the action they took three or four years ago when they voted a large sum of money towards subsidising stallions, and saying how glad I was to see them do that, and how well aware I am that their minds are quite open to the importance of horse breeding in Ireland, I should like to ask my noble Friend whether, as it appears in these newspapers, Mr. Burdett-Coutts's visit to these congested districts in Ireland is undertaken on behalf of Her Majesty's Government or not? Perhaps my noble Friend will be able to give me an answer.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN): My Lords, I have received very short notice of my noble Friend's question, and I am not able to give him so many particulars as I should wish to do with reference to this matter to which he alludes: but my attention has been called to the paragraphs in the newspapers, and I can answer the question which my noble Friend has asked to this extent: that Mr. Burdett-Coutts is, I believe, at present visiting the Western districts in company with Mr. Wrench, who is one of the Land Commissioners, and who is investigating the subject of horse breeding in those districts; but Mr. Burdett-Coutts is, I believe, doing so entirely on his own account; and he has not
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been commissioned or sent there by the Government, and he in no way represents the Government. So far as the action of Mr. Wrench is concerned, my noble Friend is aware that the Congested Districts Board is an independent body; it is perfectly within their powers to investigate either the subject of horse breeding or any other subject which in their opinion it may be desirable to examine in those districts; and the Government are not directly responsible for their action. My Lords, I understand that the subject which is specially under their consideration is the desirability, if possible, of improving the breed of draft horses—cart horses in that district; and I need hardly say that, if at any future time it is in the power of the Government in any way to second their efforts in that direction, they will be very happy to do so; but at present I am not able to give any further pledge in the matter. I think I have fully answered my noble Friend by saying that the circumstance to which he alludes is one entirely under the control and direction of the Congested Districts Board in Ireland.

MILLBANK PRISON BILL.
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
LORD WINDSOR: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I think it is only necessary for me to say a very few words in explanation. The object of the Bill is to place the site of Millbank Prison under the Commissioners of Works instead of directly under the Crown as it is now. The site of Millbank Prison was originally bought under an Act of 34 George III., and in a subsequent Act, 52 George III., the site and buildings were vested in His Majesty, his heirs and successors for the use of the public and for the purposes of this Act. Another Act of 6 and 7 Victoria again provided that the lands and tenements purchased for the Penitentiary, or thereto in any wise belonging, should be vested absolutely in Her Majesty, her heirs and successors. After this the Commissioners of Woods leased certain lands that were not found necessary for the purposes of the prison, upon which

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some doubts arose as to the legality of these leases, and an Act was passed providing that such parts of the Millbank estate as had not been required for the prison should be handed over to the Commissioners of Woods and let on building leases, or otherwise advantageously disposed of, as part of the land revenues of the Grown. That Act further confirmed all the leases that had been already granted by the Commissioners of Woods. Thus it came about that although surplus lands, not used for the prison, were under the management of the Commissioners of Woods, the site of the prison itself was still vested in Her Majesty, and the Commissioners of Woods had no control over it. In the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885, it was provided that, in the event of the removal from the present site of Millbank Penitentiary, it should be lawful for Her Majesty, on the recommendation of the Treasury, and subject to such conditions as they may think reasonable, to sell and convey those respective sites, or any part or parts thereof, to the Metropolitan Board of Works at the fair market price. The London County Council resolved during last year to offer £3,000 an acre for a certain number of acres of the site, although their own valuer had stated that it was worth £5,000 an acre; and, besides, the War Office required four acres of the site. It therefore became necessary to discover what were the powers of dealing with this site, and reference was made to the Law Officers of the Crown. The Law Officers advise, first of all, that Her Majesty has power to sell the whole or part of the land to the London County Council irrespective of the purposes for which it should be used; secondly, that it is not clear that the whole, or any substantial portion, of the site could be transferred to another Department of the Government for other than prison purposes without legislation; and, thirdly, that the Crown has no power to sell the whole, or any portion, of the site to private persons or Corporations. After this opinion was given it became clear that legislation was necessary, and the Bill proposes to place this site under the management of the Commissioners of Works so as to enable them to deal
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with it, dispose of it, or sell it in whatever way they think fit under the powers conferred on them by the 15 and 16 Victoria, Cap. 28, Section 2. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Windsor.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.

BURNING OF S.S. "ABYSSINIA."
QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government, according to notice, whether there would be any objection to laying upon the Table of the House a copy of the judgment of the Court of Inquiry relative to the burning of the steamship Abyssinia? I do not propose on this occasion to enter into the whole question involved in this notice. I will only ask permission of the noble Lord to enlarge a little upon the question I have put. I have only asked for the judgment; but I should be obliged to the noble Lord if he will allow me to extend that a little. May I ask him for all particulars attending this vessel, as well as the judgment which has been pronounced in consequence of the burning of the vessel? I will defer any further remarks until the Report is laid on the Table of your Lordships' House.
LORD BALFOUR: My Lords, the Report of this inquiry is in the printer's hands—not the judgment only, but the report of the inquiry, and it will be made public in the usual way. It is not customary to lay these documents upon the Table of either House of Parliament unless they are specially moved for; but we know of no reason why this Report should not be laid upon the Table of Parliament if the noble Earl will move for it; and, if he will make a Motion in the terms of his question for the report of the inquiry, I am authorised to assent to it.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (CASUALTIES).
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move for a copy of the Report of the inquiry into the causes which led to the fire on board the British steamship Abyssinia and her subsequent abandonment.
Moved for—
"Report of the inquiry into the causes which led to the fire on board the British steamship Abyssinia and her subsequent abandonment."—(The Earl De La Warr.)
Ordered to be laid before the House.

METROPOLITAN HOSPITALS, &c.
Moved—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the evidence taken during the Sessions of 1890 and 1891 with regard to all hospitals and provident and other public dispensaries and charitable institutions within the metropolitan area, &c.; and to report thereon to the House."—(The Lord Sandhurst.)
Motion agreed to.
Then the Lords following were named of the Committee:

L. Archbp, of Canterbury

L. Saye and Sele.

L. Clifford of Chudleigh.

E. Cadogan. (L. Privy Seal.)

L. Sandhurst.

E. Winchilsea and Nottingham.

L. Fermanagh. (E. Erne.)

E. Lauderdale.

L. Lamington.

E. Spencer.

L. Sudley. (E. Arran.)

E. Cathcart.

L. Monkswell.

E. Kimberley.

L. Thring.

L. Zouche of Haryngworth.

The Committee to appoint their own chairman.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (CASUALTIES.)
Report respecting: Laid before the House (pursuant to order of this day), and to be printed. (No. 50.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock.