Lords Sitting of 11 March 1892

Preamble
BILLS OF SALES BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the law relating to Bills of Sale—was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 44.)

SCHOOL BOARD FOR CONWAY.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: I rise to ask the Lord President why the Education Office is forcing a School Board on Conway, in spite of the opposition of a majority of the ratepayers and the Mayor of Conway, and why the Education Office has not appointed an Attendance Committee, the Town Council not having done so? My Lords, for some years past a small party at Conway has been endeavouring to obtain a School Board. About three years ago there would have been some excuse for doing so, because at that time the school accommodation was insufficient; but, when they came to take a poll of the ratepayers, only one dozen voted for a School Board, while 450 voted against it. Since that time the Mayor (Mr. Alfred Wood) has built a school at a cost of £1,000, and let it to the National Society for an annual rent of 1s. Those persons who sought a School Board, and who were described to me as busy-bodies, paying much less rates than others, and therefore indifferent to the burden they imposed upon others, succeeded in getting on the Town Council. When there they neglected to do one of the duties of the Town Council, which is to appoint an Attendance Committee. Upon that the Education Office remonstrated with them, and called upon them to do it; but, as they did not do it, it would have been the duty of the Education Office, under the powers of the Act, to have nominated an Attendance Committee itself. Things went on for some time in this way, nothing being done, until, at a meeting on the 3rd of February of the Town Council, a letter was read from the Education Office, asking what action had been taken, either as to
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appointing a School Board or an Attendance Committee. In the course of that meeting the Mayor caused the appointment of an Attendance Committee to be voted on. He and five other members of the Town Council voted for it. He then declared that an Attendance Committee was appointed, and that a School Board would be unnecessary. However, notwithstanding that, one of the Councillors, Mr. Hughes, put forward a motion for the appointment of a School Board, and it was carried by nine votes to six. It is very well known that it is against the opinion of the great majority of the ratepayers in Conway, and it is said that those members who voted for the School Board will not venture to submit themselves for re-election. Now so far as this there is nothing to complain of. What took place is the ordinary course of business in small Municipal Bodies. But there is just cause for complaint against the Education Office. Why did that Office not carry out the powers of the Act and appoint an Attendance Committee? Why, notwithstanding the letter that was addressed to them by the Vicar (Mr. Rees), were they not mindful of the evils of precipitation? I believe that their action has been so hurried that this is the nomination day for the election. My noble Friend the Lord President may have been told that there is no precedent for not acceding to such a request of a Town Council; but there is also no precedent for a vote so hastily snatched as this was, and flying in the face of the ratepayers. I would also ask the Lord President who makes these precedents? A great many were made by the late Mr. Cumin. One of these was in this wise. There were two persons generally opposed in opinions, Sir Hussey Vivian and the late Mr. Talbot, of Margam. These two gentlemen came up and saw the Vice President, Mr. Mundella, and stated that they were prepared to accede to all the requirements of the Education Office and to build what schools they wished, and in what manner they wished, so long as there would not be a School Board. What happened? Mr. Cumin interposed and said there must be a School Board, and I believe the reason why

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he was so anxious that there should be a School Board and why he prevented the just request of these gentlemen from being attended to by the Education Office, was that they had already had trouble three times with this school. I ask the noble Viscount whether he thinks that to follow such a precedent as that will be either in accordance with his own feelings and wishes, or in accordance with the professions of the Party to which he belongs?
THE BISHOP OF BANGOR: Before the Lord President answers the question put to him by the noble Lord, I may be permitted to make a few observations upon the matter. I am glad to say that this case is not a difficult one. I believe there is sufficient accommodation for all the children of the inhabitants of Conway; I do not think that any charge to the contrary has been made out; I believe there are something like 371 children of inhabitants in attendance, and I am informed that there is accommodation sufficient for something like from 450 to 500. Again, no charge of inefficiency has been brought against the schools; indeed, I believe they are among the best conducted schools in the Principality, or in any other part of the country. Education is perfectly free so far as the law permits; and it seems to me that the Town Council have forced or are endeavouring to force upon the majority of the ratepayers of Conway a School Board which is absolutely unnecessary from any point of view. I therefore hope that the Lord President may yet see his way to cancel the order which has been given for the formation of a School Board; for if a School Board is established there it can only be established for one object—that is, in order to discharge the duties which belong to an Attendance Committee; and I think an Attendance Committee might very well be created by the Town Council, or, at all events, an order from the Lord President should be given for its creation.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK): My Lords, the noble Lord who has pat this question has stated certain things of which the Department cannot possibly have any cognizance—they have not been brought before it; and, indeed,
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with respect to the state of things in Conway, it is only to-day that the Department has become in any way officially aware of them, and that by a Deputation coming upon the very day on which the nomination of the School Board took place. Now, my Lords, with regard to the course which has been taken by the Education Department, there has been no forcing of a School Board at all, nor has there been any declension of their duty of appointing an Attendance Committee. Even if they had appointed an Attendance Committee, and the Town Council had passed a resolution for a School Board, that Attendance Committee would have fallen at once to the ground, and the School Board itself would have become the Attendance Committee, and had the right to be so. Under Section 12 of the Act of 1870, there are two ways in which a School Board may be formed. One is by the will of the ratepayers, and the other, in the case where there is a Corporation, by the will of the Town Council; and upon the 3rd of February the noble Lord says, and I believe it is correct, the Town Council of Conway passed a resolution for a School Board. The noble Lord tells us what passed at the meeting of the Town Council—of that I know nothing; how that resolution was passed I cannot say; but we received information that in the regular way (as is quite clear from the noble Lord's own statement) by nine votes to six they carried a resolution for a School Board. That resolution came up to the Department; no interference was made on the part of the ratepayers or any other persons; no petition was presented during the three weeks which passed before the order was made by the Department. On the 25th of February the Department made an order, in reply to the resolution, granting a School Board, and that School Board is to-day nominated for, and the election is in course of procedure. The right rev. Prelate asks me to interfere and to withdraw that order. I have made inquiry as to the legality of such a proceeding, and I believe it to be absolutely impossible for me to cancel it. We are called upon to commence the proceedings for the establishment of a

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School Board; that order is one of the first proceedings that takes place, and, having taken place, it is beyond our power to withdraw it—it, must go forward, it is quite true, as the right rev. Prelate says, that the schools in Conway are excellent schools; there is no deficiency of accommodation; and, therefore, voluntary schools occupying the ground, and there being no necessity for any new schools, the School Board will have no authority and no right to come to the Department for assistance, by loans or otherwise, to erect schools because there are sufficient already; and, if a School Board is formed, the only consequence will be that which has occurred in many parts of England where the School Board has no schools of its own—namely, that it simply acts as a school attendance committee—that is to enforce attendance at the schools that already exist. I cannot therefore think that the town will suffer very much hardship. My Lords, it appeal's (which I was not aware of until to-day) that a petition was presented to the Town Council, after they had passed their resolution, signed by 337 out of 520 ratepayers in Conway; therefore it is quite clear that, so far as the Town Council are concerned, they had before them the opinion of the ratepayers. But we had not—no remonstrance of any kind was made to the Department, and therefore the Department went on in the ordinary course of proceedings. Now what may happen afterwards? If the ratepayers have it in their power to elect a School Board of their own views—which in all probability they will have—they will have a School Board very much in consonance with the feelings of those now managing the schools; and, if at the end of three years they find the School Board is of no use, and still has no schools of its own, but is simply acting in the way I have described, they can do as other towns have done: under the Act of 1876 the Town Council can apply for a dissolution of the Board. But, in the meantime, I have no power, legally or authoritatively, to do away with an order regularly made. And, when my noble Friend talks of forcing, I can only say that, so far as my administration of the law is concerned, I should endeavour always to be absolutely
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neutral, and to act with regard to either voluntary schools or Board schools in direct conformity with the law as it is laid down. That law is laid down very clearly in the Act of 1870 with regard to a resolution of a Town Council; no interference was made to give us an opportunity of inquiring or otherwise; it is too late now to ask us to take any step; and I can only say that I am extremely sorry if the ratepayers are afflicted with a School Board which they do not like, but at any rate they will get it in the least objectionable shape which is possible.

MARRIAGES ABROAD BILL [H.L.]
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY): My Lords, this is a Bill which there has been some little difficulty in arranging, by reason of there having been two amending Acts proposed: one in 1890 and the other in 1891; but the matter is now in a condition in which I think we can consolidate the law on the subject, which your Lordships will probably think is a subject on which the laity of both sexes should be able to see at once, by a Consolidating Act, what the law is. The Bill must go to the Standing Committee, because in a Consolidating Act it is necessary to choose what enactments are to be embodied from the various Statutes that have been from time to time, not always happily, passed. In this Consolidating Act we shall be able, I think, at all events to give a statement of the law in harmony with itself, and which will signify the same thing throughout in a small Code; and I ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
LORD BALFOUR: I ask your Lordships to allow me to move the Second Reading of this Bill on behalf of the noble Marquess the Secretary for Scotland. The matter is a very simple one, but it is one of some urgency. The existing law as to rebuilding bridges is that the building of them can only be resolved upon by the road trustees at a certain statutory meeting which is held in the month of October. Your Lordships may be aware—certainly those of your Lordships who are connected with Scotland will be aware—that in the last week of January a very disastrous flood took place over a great part of the North of Scotland by which a very large number of bridges on the roads in the counties of Inverness, Ross, Cromarty, and Sutherland were washed away—one in particular, the destruction of which has caused a very great amount of public inconvenience, was Bonar Bridge, which is very well known to your Lordships, as the main line of communication between the counties of Ross and Sutherland, and indeed between the whole of the North of Scotland, north of that, and the South. Now, my Lords, the effect of the existing statutory restriction which exists in the Roads Act, 1878, confirmed by the Local Government Act, 1889, is that, unless some relief is granted, even the most preliminary steps for rebuilding these bridges practically cannot be taken until the spring of next year; because the resolution to build and borrow money cannot be adopted till October, and of course the works cannot go on in the winter months. If the present summer is to be saved and a great public inconvenience to be got rid of, some relaxation of this provision must be devised. My Lords, the proposal in this Bill is to institute, in any case of sudden destruction of bridges, such as has taken place, a power to County Councils and Road Boards to meet and resolve upon the rebuilding of them at a special meeting held after proper notice, and by a special circular addressed to every member of these public bodies. I am informed that there is no likelihood of any opposition to this measure, that the County Councils concerned
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have unanimously petitioned in favour of it, and the resolutions of several public meetings have been forwarded to the noble Lord, the Secretary for Scotland, asking that such a measure as this may be passed. Under these circumstances, and assuring your Lordships that it is a matter of real urgency, I hope your Lordships will consent to give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move accordingly.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."(The Lord Balfour.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL [H.L.]—(No. 4.)
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SHORT TITLES BILL— [H.L.]—(No. 39.)
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock.