Lords Sitting of 1 March 1892

EAST INDIA OFFICERS BILL [H.L.] (No. 28.)
Bill reported from the Standing Committee with amendments: The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the whole House (on re-commitment) and by the Standing Committee to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended.

RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
Commons Message considered (according to order).
Moved, That this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons, viz.—
"That all Bills of the present Session to confirm Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade, under the 'Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888,' containing the classification of merchandise traffic, and the schedule of maximum rates and charges applicable thereto, be referred to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons."—(The Lord Knutsford.)
Motion agreed to; and a Message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

PRESENTATION TO BENEFICES BILL [H.L.]—(No. 24.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKMy Lords, the Bill, to which I ask you to give a Second Reading to-day, has already twice received your Lordships' approval, and is to-day precisely in the same form as when it passed this House last year. It is intended to deal with cases where the presentation to a benefice is vested in a large constituency: either a body of parishioners or other bodies, consisting of a large number of persons; and it proposes that the parishioners, or others, should exercise their right of presentation by electing a body of trustees which shall exercise the right for them when a vacancy occurs; it proposes also that the trustees shall be elected not at the
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  time of the vacancy but beforehand, in order to provide against some of the disorder and excitement that has found a place on occasions when the election is made by a large body of patrons. My Lords, the provisions of the Bill are perfectly simple, and I need not delay your Lordships by saying anything more about them. I now beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Archbishop of York.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 22 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMANMy Lords, on the very first introduction of the Local Government Bill I laid a Bill on the Table of this House and required it to be read a first time, when the noble Marquess, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, got up and said that there was no instance of a Bill, that had been passed, being repealed in the same Session. I ventured to remind that Minister that the Jews' Naturalisation Bill was brought in by the Duke of Newcastle, when he was Prime Minister, and, at his request, was repealed in the same year. My Lords, I thought that would have entitled me to have my Bill printed. But, my Lords, things are carried with a high hand in this House, and the Clerks seem to think they may stop one on every occasion. Sir William Rose tried to stop me from endeavouring a second time to restore the Court of Common Pleas, but I was enabled to plead the cause of that important Court a second time. My Lords, I am not one who is easily discouraged. The reason why I have brought this measure forward to-day, and no sooner, is that the County Council was going on, and it would have been very insulting to that body if I had said anything to show a distrust of them; but, at the same time, I

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  must remind your Lordships how, both in London and in the country, the extravagance of these bodies has become almost intolerable. The London County Council only opposed, by a small minority, a proposal that all the expenses of pulling down half the Strand should fall upon the rates. Well, my Lords, an instance occurred to me only the other day. In passing from Derby to York, by the Great Northern Line, at West Derby I met a County Councillor, who told me that on that day they had agreed to pay very nearly £500 to a lecturer upon agriculture. Well, my Lords, in our little club at Bakewell we had lecturers upon agriculture, and we paid them ourselves. My Lords, the stress upon these rates is becoming quite intolerable. In the East part of London there was a dinner to help the rates in the expense of a library. The illustrious Duke, His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, was in the chair; Lord Randolph Churchill had a place reserved for him on the left of the chair, and the Duke of Argyll on the right; but, as those personages did not appear, I had to sit on the right hand of His Royal Highness and the Bishop of Bedford on his left. Well, my Lords, His Royal Highness, in course of conversation, said to me, "We are going too fast." This is indeed the fact. We are travelling at a most rapid rate. Bills are passed through Committees, and they come here, and nobody knows what is passed. I am an old man, and I can hardly expect that anybody will second this, to show the opinion that some may entertain of the expediency of a change. At Derby, when this Local Government Bill was first passed, the Clerk of the Peace told me that the provision for including £10 owners and £10 occupiers had driven the overseers almost mad. For this election they are trying to make up the list to-morrow, and the election is to take place on Saturday; but there is too small a body to do the business of the office. In our county, from the absence of Mr. Arkwright, the whole County Council had to be put off for a day. We magistrates are able and willing to do our duty. The noble Marquess at the head of the State had an opportunity of addressing the people of Derby—he
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  was placed in what is called the Drill Hall—and his great object was to show how recent were the powers of the magistrates over finance. My Lords, their conduct is irreproachable; and Sir Henry Wilmot, who is an Alderman, as I believe they call him, said to me, "I wish you could do away with this Local Government Bill." My Lords, he said to me, "You will have the same working men put upon the County Council that you had before." But, my Lords, you must remember that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety"; and, if you have 50 men to do the work of four or five as many, you are incurring a good deal of danger. And I do assure you that it is like reviving the triennial Parliament. This is a little Parliament that is to be elected this week if they possibly can. Many householders have told me how much they have been annoyed by being canvassed for the County Councils; ladies also have told me that they have been extremely annoyed by being pestered to vote for County Councils—they would wish to vote for Members of Parliament whom they know, but not for a small body taken to swamp those of gentle birth—Methodists and others who are to become and be agitators. My Lords, I was very glad that the right reverend Bishop was yesterday refused the power of having reporters in the County Council Committees on technical education, because, from experience, I have found that the Board of Guardians of Bakewell is utterly subverted by the reports, and the length of speeches occasionally; and I do believe that it would be far better not to make this technical education so elaborate, because you have no proof that you will succeed. My Lords, I suppose I shall not have any Teller in proposing the Second Reading of this Bill. If so, I shall go my way; but I shall feel certain that that which is so unsuitable to Scotland, and works so ill in England, will not be received as a panacea for Ireland when it comes forward in another place. My Lords, I trust you will not think me an agitator—I am far from it. I wish to see a land of settled government; it is—
  "A land of just renown, Where freedom broadens slowly down From precedent to precedent."

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  And the verse before that is—
  "It is a land which free men till, Which sober suited free men chose: And where, begirt by friends or foes, A man may speak the thing he will."
  My Lords, that has not been my case—but I make no complaint.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  Motion objected to; and, on Question, resolved in the negative.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock.