HL Deb 23 June 1892 vol 5 cc1775-81

COMMITTEE.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

EARL CADOGAN

My Lords, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, I think it due to those of your Lordships who addressed me upon one subject the other day that I should offer a few words of explanation on that subject—namely, with regard to the Christian Brothers. My noble Friend, Lord de Vesci, who is not, I think, in his place, asked me whether I would make a statement to-day with regard to the attitude of the Government on that question. In the course of the Debate on Monday night, it was intimated by several noble Lords from Ireland that they were under the impression that the Government had made some arrangements with the Christian Brothers' school's, whereby there should be some modification of the Conscience Clauses which they might be induced to accept,, and which would produce a novel state of things. My Lords, I wish to say—and I hope the noble Lords will accept the statement as genuine—that there has been no arrangement whatever with reference to any modification of the Conscience Clauses, constituted under legal sanction with especial reference to these schools. And, perhaps, if the House will allow me, I may read exactly what the First Lord of the Treasury did say upon that subject in the House of Commons. He said— The suggestion had been made that his right hon. Friend proposed, not merely to suggest to the consideration of the Commissioners two alternative Conscience Clauses, but also desired to have the other rules and regulations of the Board overhauled, with a view of modifying the present 3ystem, by which education was regulated in Ireland, Suggestions had been made that his right hon. Friend desired, either directly or indirectly, to open up the vexed and much controverted question of emblems. That was not the conclusion from anything his right hon. Friend had said, and did not express either the view or inclination of the Government. That being so, he thought both his hon. Friends, who were the only representatives that day of Ulster opinion on that question, would feel that the Government had not in any way attempted to import into this Bill any question to which legitimate objection could' be taken by any section of Protestant opinion in any part of Ireland. My Lords, it is true, therefore, that, inasmuch as nothing new was imported into these Conscience Clauses, no change was contemplated in them. It is true that no mention whatever of these special schools is made in the Bill that I had the honour to introduce. Therefore I trust that your Lordships will understand that there has been nothing novel in that respect; that the only means whereby these schools can come under the operation of the Act is by adopting one of the two Conscience Clauses sanctioned under Parliamentary enactment: either the one under Rules by the first Act, or that defined in the Act of 1878.

Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl Cadogan.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

May I ask the noble Earl, whether it is the fact that they have the option now of having the Conscience Clause under the Act of 1878, or whether they are not obliged to conform themselves to the Conscience Clause under the Rules of the Commissioners?

EARL CADOGAN

The Government have taken no step themselves in that direction. All they have done is to refer the two Conscience Clauses for the consideration of the Commissioners; there has been no arrangement for any modification of those Conscience Clauses, or for any alteration in them.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

That is not exactly what I wished to ask. I want to know whether these schools have now the option. If they have not, I understand that it is referred merely for the consideration of the Commissioners that they should be able to adopt the Conscience Clause of 1878.

EARL CADOGAN

They have the option of adopting either as it is, as the law stands; both Conscience Clauses are under the authority of legal enactment. The first, it is true, was made by conditions and rules by the Commissioners under the powers of the Act; and the Conscience Clause of 1878 was made directly by the Act itself; but, as the law now stands, the Commissioners have the option, and all that was done by the Government was to refer the matter to the Commissioners as to which they should adopt.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

The Commissioners have the option, no doubt, of imposing either Conscience Clause; but the school authorities, I apprehend, have not now the option, although they might have the option if the Commissioners so resolved.

EARL CADOGAN

That is the very point that has been referred to them.

Motion agreed to; House in Committee according to order.

Clause 1.

EARL CADOGAN

My Lords, I think it is perhaps convenient that I should explain to the House the circumstances under which I feel it my duty to withdraw the Amendment that stands in my name. It is found that it will be impossible to accept any Amendments to this Billon the present occasion, owing to the position of affairs in another place, to which I cannot in detail refer; but I may simply say what I think many noble Lords know to be the fact that, if any Amendments are proposed, and if this Bill goes back to the other Mouse, the passing of it will be imperiled; and I am afraid it is very doubtful whether it would ever be allowed to become law. My Lords, we consider that it is of vital importance that this Bill should become law during the present Session. Undoubtedly there are Amendments which might very properly be made to the Bill, and those Amendments are, I am sorry to say, required by certain deficiencies in the Bill which the noble Marquess pointed out the other day, and in some of which I entirely concur. My Lords, I think I have sufficiently shown that concurrence by having myself placed on the paper an Amendment in the sense indicated by my noble Friend. But, all things considered, I am afraid there is no other course open to us to pursue. We are anxious that this measure should be passed during the present Session; we believe; that if Amendments are carried, and the measure returns to another place, for reasons which all your Lordships are acquainted with, the passing of the measure will be greatly imperilled; and, much as I regret it, our duty will be to resist any Amendments at this stage of the Bill.

*THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

My Lords, the position of affairs seems to be that your Lordships are asked to pass a Bill which, as I endeavoured to point out on the Second Reading, has fifteen clauses applying compulsion to Ireland, and one subsection absolutely sweeping those fifteen clauses away. My Lords, but for a sense of deference to your Lordships, I should say that the Bill is absolute nonsense. As to the Amendments that I have put on the Paper, I think they are all of them very important; but I should be very sorry to imperil the passing of this Bill, because I think it is a very important Bill, and will be of immense use to Ireland; and I certainly should be the last one to move an Amendment if I thought that by doing so I should imperil the Bill. But, my Lords, I think that this treatment of your Lordships' House is not at all what it ought to be, if I maybe allowed to say so; it is an absolute mockery that your Lordships should be asked to consider the Bill, and then that your Lordships should be told that you are not allowed to amend it in Committee—not even to dot an or cross act; therefore it might just as well not have been sent up to your Lordships; and, though I am not prepared to move any Amendment, I must protest most emphatically against this treatment of your Lordships' House. It is absolutely useless for your Lordships to sit here and consider a Bill, if you are not allowed to amend it. My Lords, under the circumstances, and after making this protest as strongly as I can, I shall certainly withdraw the Amendments that I have on the Paper, being told that if I move one of them, or carry one of them, it will lose the Bill; and it is for that reason alone that I take this course.

THE EARL OF ARRAN

My Lords, I cannot too strongly endorse every word that has fallen from my noble Friend. Speaking for the part of Ireland with which I am connected, I can only say that, if the Bill passes in its present form, it will be an absolutely dead letter; but of course, in the face of the statement made by my noble "Friend, the Lord Privy Seal, I can only acquiesce, and I also withdraw the Amendment that I was about to move in the place of Lord de Vesci, who is unfortunately absent.

LORD HERSCHELL

My Lords, I have heard the statement that has just been made by the Lord Privy Seal with some surprise, because it appears to place us in a very unfortunate and peculiar position. There was great anxiety expressed in another place for an early Dissolution, but they were assured that that was impossible, at any rate so early as was desired, because, if it took place, it would be impossible for this House to consider the Bills that were being sent up to it, and to make the Amendments which might be the result of their consideration. And now, my Lords, the Dissolution having been postponed, we are told that if we consider Bills, and make Amendments in them, it would be impossible for those Bills to pass, and therefore we must make no Amendments.

EARL CADOGAN

Not all Bills.

LORD HERSCHELL

This appears to be the most important of those that have come before this House. The other House have been told that it is impossible to dissolve so early as was anticipated, and was generally desired by many, on that account; and then, when we come to the consideration of Bills, we are told that if we consider them—and it is no use considering unless we can act upon that consideration—the Bills will be lost, because there is not time to consider them in the other House. With reference to the subject itself of this measure, I certainly cannot help feeling that, in introducing a measure of this description into Ireland for the first time, probably the end, which all of us desire, would be likely to be better attained ultimately by proceeding without framing too hard and fast a line, allowing a little power of relaxation beyond even what one would desire, perhaps, ultimately to see. You may mitigate the difficulty of enforcing it in the first instance, and may gradually bring about the state of things you desire more effectually, in that way than if, in the first instance, you tried to do too much. Personally, therefore, although I quite see that this is a very elastic clause, I can conceive that, not looking to the moment only, but looking forward, when you have introduced this system and gradually put it into force, you may ultimately find yourselves in as good a position as if you had done more in the first instance.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN

My Lords, I am particularly interested in the Amendments that were to have been moved by the noble Marquess, because, as a Magistrate, I shall have to administer this Act, and I look forward with considerable apprehension as to how I am to put the Act into force. But certainly, in view of the very important character of this measure, I do not think that anything of that sort should stand in the way of the Bill being passed this Session. If it is found practically difficult to carry out, I have no doubt that the Lord Privy Seal, who has had considerable experience in the charge of Irish measures, may very likely have, in a short space of time—or whoever may happen to have the charge of Irish business—to deal with an Amendment of this important Act. But whatever defects there may be in the Bill, they should not be allowed to stand in the way of passing this very important measure.

Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.