Lords Sitting of 16 June 1892

REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR IRELAND.
Writs and Returns electing the Lord Muskerry a Representative Peer for Ireland in the room of the late Lord Castlemaine, deceased, with the Certificate of the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland annexed thereto: Delivered (on oath), and Certificate read.

ALLOTMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN): My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill. The object of it is to extend to Scotland the provisions of the Allotments Acts of 1887 and 1889. I do not think I need detain your Lordships at all by going into the details of this Bill, because it has been framed, as far as the procedure in Scotland would allow of it, upon the two Acts of 1887 and 1889 which refer to England alone. The two English Acts were to a certain extent experimental; but, since they have been in force, a desire has been frequently expressed that the principle embodied in them should be established in Scotland as well as in England. There is another reason which makes legislation for such a purpose partly appropriate at the present time, because there is at present before your Lordships a Bill, to which your Lordships gave a Second Reading three nights ago, which has been framed with the object of promoting the creation of small agricultural holdings, and thereby preventing, so far as legislation of this nature can prevent it, the wholesale transference of the population from the rural districts to the urban districts. That Bill applies to Scotland as well as England; but the Bill which I now ask to be read a second time may be considered to be, in effect, another step, so far as Scotland is concerned, towards the end which
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your Lordships have in view in passing the Small Agricultural Holdings Bill for England—namely, to prevent, as far as might be possible, the migration from the rural to the urban districts. My Lords, to cultivate an allotment is no bad training for the cultivation of a small holding, and it may safely be said that the chance of creating a numerous class of small holders will be slight unless the class of labourers from which they should come has some chance, first of all, of gaining practical experience on a small scale. How far such opportunities already exist in Scotland, and how far Scottish labourers are willing to take advantage of them, is a question that I need not entertain at this moment; but if, without danger to anyone, it is possible to encourage the procuring of allotments, and thus to promote the cultivation of the soil, and to prevent, if only to a small extent, the migration from the rural to the urban districts, then I think Her Majesty's Government are justified in asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a Bill which has for its object that very desirable result; and the measure to which I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading is framed with that intention. I do not think I need enter upon the urgent necessity of a Bill such as this. It is not a fact that requires to be demonstrated. The Bill is an honest attempt to keep the labourer to a closer connection with the land; and, whether that closer connection is rendered necessary by the social conditions or not, it is I think a thing in itself desirable. Whether such a close connection can be achieved or not depends I think entirely upon the nature of the soil, and other circumstances that the Legislature cannot control; but the Legislature can remove the obstacles to any advance on the road that is desirable. In addition to this I think, so far as Scotland is concerned, your Lordships who are acquainted with the history of the agricultural labourer in Scotland will admit that there is one system in Scotland which it would be very desirable as far as possible to put an end to. I refer to the peculiar system in Scotland by which the labourers on the farms are apt, after a very short residence on one farm, to change masters and go to another. The object of the Bill, as I have stated already, is to prevent, as far as may be possible, the migration of the

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rural population into the burghs; but in addition to that we have in Scotland a system which involves the migration, not only to the cities, but the migration of the agricultural population from one part of the country to another. I have always held that this is a great drawback to our agricultural population in Scotland. I have no doubt it has its advantages; but, on the other hand, I think the disadvantages more than counterbalance any advantages which may be obtained from the system. In the first place we have what are called Hiring Fairs in Scotland. I think those in themselves are an institution which it is not desirable to continue, and if, by any means, they could be stopped, it would be much in the interest of the agricultural population. But if, under this Bill, the rural population can be induced to acquire allotments in their own district and in the neighbourhood in which they live, I think we may be certain that the result will be that gradually, not at first, they will be more inclined to remain in the places in which perhaps they were born, and in which at any rate they have passed a large portion of their lives. And looking to the present political state of the country, and the large amount of power that is given to the agricultural labourer, I feel convinced, as I think your Lordships will be, that it is very desirable that the agricultural labourer should remain fixed more or less by his own interest in one part of the country, and not be constantly migrating from place to place with interests affecting naturally himself only, and not with regard to the part of the country in which he lives. If this Bill has any effect of that description I am sure that that alone will be a great advantage to the rural population of Scotland. The system that I have alluded to does not affect the whole of Scotland; but it affects very largely the agricultural population in the south. My Lords, I do not propose to-night to enter into the details of the Bill, because it is identically, for all practical purposes, the same Bill to which your Lordships have already assented on the part of England, and therefore I think it would only be a waste of your Lordships' time to go into the details on this occasion. With these few remarks, I have to ask your Lordships to read the Bill a second time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
*THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: My Lords, I do not rise in any way to offer objection to the Second Reading of the Bill, but merely to remark upon its very great importance. I think the noble Marquess has not in the least exaggerated the importance of the subject, and I go rather further than he does in thinking that the Act will be a great boon in the agricultural districts of Scotland. I have been always very much astonished that when the Allotments Act was passed for England it was not also passed for Scotland. But as regards the many details of the Bill it would be impossible, in the short time we have had it before us, to criticise it. So far as I can see it goes entirely upon the lines of the English Act adjusted to meet Scotch law, and I look forward in the rural districts of Scotland to its being brought into operation at once. I think that the county I belong to was the foremost county in appealing to have the Act extended to Scotland, and I hope that in Aberdeenshire it will be made use of. My Lords, the only criticism I would offer is as to the election of managers in Clause 9. Do I rightly understand it to be the object of the Bill that if a parish wishes to elect managers of the allotments, upon petition to the Local Authority, that is the County Council, they may have the right, if supported by one sixth of the ratepayers, to take the management of the allotments out of the hands of the County Council?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Yes, that is so.
*THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: I think that goes further than the English Act does. It is a very strong order that, by the petition of a certain number of the inhabitants of a parish, the whole management of an Act of Parliament may be taken out of the hands of the Local Authority.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: I think the noble Marquess will find that that follows exactly the lines of the English Act, and is a course which has been followed by Parliament on a great many occasions—namely, to give to the people interested in a district the management of the district itself, or rather

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to take it out of the hands of the County Council. The interpretation put upon Clause 9 by the noble Marquess is quite correct. Whether the noble Marquess objects to it or not is another question.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: I do not know whether I made myself quite clear. Does the clause take the whole management only of the allotments out of the hands of the Local Authority, or does it take the control of the finances as well, or would they be entirely responsible under the Act for the management?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: They would be entirely responsible under the Act for the management.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

NAVAL KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR BILL.
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: My Lords, this is a very short Bill which I think I can explain in a very few words. It appears that in 1724 a Mr. Travers left a sum of money in aid of superannuated or disabled lieutenants of English men-of-war; he left a property of 1,140 acres in Essex, but coupled with certain conditions. The Knights were to be single, they were to have no children, they were to be inclined to lead a virtuous, studious, and a devout life, they were to live in a collegiate manner, they were to keep their mess together in the Common Hall, and were to attend divine service daily in St. George's Chapel. This bequest was some time after supplemented by Lieutenant Brathwaite, R.N., who left £18,000 for the same object, but the conditions imposed have been proved by the experience of over three-quarters of a century to be entirely inconsistent with and unsuited to the habits and wants of naval officers at the present day. My Lords, I think that the Memorandum at the beginning of the Bill will explain as simply as possible what the object of the Bill is. Owing to these conditions we have experienced great difficulty in finding officers eligible to fill the vacancies, which is shown by the fact that at present we have only four Knights
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instead of seven. Under those circumstances, as the Memorandum states, it has been decided to dissolve the Corporation of the Naval Knights of Windsor, and to appropriate the funds in a more useful manner, for the direct benefit of a large class of deserving naval officers in whose interest the Trust was originally founded. The income of the property thus transferred will be granted in the form of pensions to naval officers of the rank of lieutenant of the Navy or who have retired from that rank, and the arrangement so made by the Admiralty will be submitted for approval to Her Majesty in Council. That is really the whole Bill. I will only add that it passed through the House of Commons without comment or amendment; and under those circumstances I trust your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Elphinstone.)
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: I wish to ask the noble Lord whether the Papers containing the Regulations will be laid upon the Table of the House?
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: The Papers have not yet been submitted to Her Majesty in Council.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: But after they have been submitted?
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: They will certainly be laid upon the Table.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I do not rise to offer any opposition to the Bill, the principal object of which is very much to be commended. The bequest of Mr. Travers, with the conditions that he imposed by the terms of his will, has been found very difficult to administer, especially of late year's, and the Admiralty are I think taking a very wise step in proposing new conditions for its administration. But I would like to call the attention of the noble Lord to the terms of the Bill, which I think do not carry out the object of the bequest in so strict a manner as they ought to do. These funds, whatever they are, belong absolutely and solely to the officers of the Royal Navy of the rank of lieutenant, or of the rank of lieutenant with the retired rank of commander; they ought not to be granted in the way of pensions to officers of any other rank, or to any other persons

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than lieutenants who are in the Royal Navy. My Lords, under Clause 2 I do not think that the Admiralty are bound, as the words now stand, to apply the whole of the property in the manner in which they wish to apply it. The words are that the Admiralty may out of this property grant pensions to retired officers of the rank of lieutenant; but it does not necessarily follow that they must do it. The word "may" I know is supposed very often to mean the same thing as "shall," but "shall" is a much better word than "may," and the noble Lord will see that the word "shall" is used in Sub-section 4 of the same clause; and therefore I think it had much better be used here. I would suggest to the noble Lord that Sub-section 20 of that clause should be altered in something like the following form: "That the Admiralty shall after deducting the necessary or proper expenses of management, expend the income of the said property in pensions to officers of the rank of lieutenant"; then the Admiralty will be bound to expend this money in that particular way and in that particular way alone. My Lords, I have a practical reason for making these remarks because there is reference made in the Bill to the property of Greenwich Hospital. I happen to have had some knowledge of the administration of that property at the time when very great changes were being made in its application, and in the conditions in which it was applied; and I know that there are occasionally claims put forward by persons who have no right whatsoever to these bequests, and that in any Bill which deals with a bequest of this kind, which is limited to a particular rank of officers, the most clear terms ought to be used so as to leave the Admiralty no discretion in the matter. The bequest ought to be applied to officers of that rank, of course on conditions which approve themselves to the Admiralty and to Her Majesty in Council. I would suggest to the noble Lord to consider the making of an alteration of that kind. It interferes neither with the principle of the Bill, nor with the objects of the Admiralty, but it carries out the proposal in a way which leaves no room for mistake. But there is one point further in Clause 2—the rents and profits of the lands vested in the Admiralty by virtue of the Green-
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wich Hospital Act are to be paid in a particular way. Now there is no reference in the Preamble to this Bill to the property of Greenwich Hospital. This Bill professes to deal only with the bequest of Mr. Travers and the Naval Knights of Windsor, and I do not think any person, interested in the property of Greenwich Hospital, could possibly have guessed that he would find that a regulation is laid down in a Bill relating to the Naval Knights of Windsor which is to apply to the whole property of Greenwich Hospital. I think those words ought to be struck out. I think all reference to Greenwich Hospital quâ Greenwich Hospital is quite inappropriate to a Bill which refers solely to the Naval Knights of Windsor.
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: Under Clause 2 the Admiralty are empowered to grant pensions to retired officers of the rank of lieutenant only.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: That is all right.
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: Or to lieutenants who have retired with the rank of commander. The noble Earl knows that lieutenants on being retired are very often lieutenants with superior rank.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Hear, hear!
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: In dealing with the new property the powers conferred on the Admiralty by the Greenwich Hospital Acts will give the necessary authority to defray all proper expenses for management before applying any of the income towards the pensions. The noble Earl was at the Admiralty this morning and I heard the objection that he proposed raising. We therefore referred the matter to the draftsman, and I think if the noble Lord looks at the last paragraph of the Memorandum he will see how impossible it is for us now to accept any Amendment to the Bill. The last paragraph says that all the persons interested in the Travers College have signified their concurrence with those proposals. This Memorandum from the draftsman was put into my hands a very short time ago. Touching upon that very same point that all persons interested have signified their concurrence he says—
"This being an agreed Bill should not be altered at the last stage."

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And then he goes on—
"The Amendments proposed by the noble Earl are unnecessary, and would make no real alteration. The word 'may' confers a power, but it is a power for the non-exercise of which a Public Department might be called to account in Parliament, and in that sense it is equivalent to 'shall.'"
Further he goes on—
"From an administrative point of view it would be undesirable that the hands of the Admiralty should be too closely fettered. Income derived from land is subject to fluctuation, and therefore it would be necessary to have a safe margin in reserve. The Admiralty have not finally decided upon the amount of pensions to be awarded to lieutenants of the Navy or retired from the Navy, but it has been agreed that the qualifications should be long and faithful service."
My Lords, I am instructed that we cannot agree to any Amendments now in this Bill, especially as it is already, as it stands, an agreed Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am afraid I failed to convey to the noble Earl what my objection is; my objection is that there is no obligation contained in the Bill now to oblige the Admiralty to expend the total sum received, in respect of that bequest, in pensions to lieutenants of the Royal Navy. That was the intention of the bequest, and apparently that is the intention of the Admiralty; and I do not propose to make any alteration in the spirit of the Bill at all, or any alteration which can affect any of the persons who may have given their consent. All I wish is that the Admiralty should be compelled to lay out the money which will come to them. Under the Bill as it stands, and as the noble Lord has just said, there is a discretion left to the Admiralty. I say that discretion ought not to be left to them, because Mr. Travers left this money for this particular purpose. Everybody will be agreed that it is quite right that pensions should be given to officers of the rank of lieutenant of the Royal Navy. That rank is necessarily the rank from which by far the largest amount of retirements take place, owing to the impossibility of promoting all lieutenants, and therefore it is particularly undesirable that, in the case of a bequest of this sort, there should be left any loophole through which, either the lieutenants should not receive the money, or the money should be capable of being bestowed upon somebody else. My Lords,
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when I say this I have a reason; because in the year 1885 the Admiralty decided that officers who were active captains, and who would retire being active captains, were to count as if they were lieutenants. If I had happened to notice that at the time I should have opposed it, as this benefit is clearly intended for lieutenants, and it is intended that the money should be expended; it apparently is the wish of the Admiralty; and why the draftsman should object to words being put in to make it clear I do not understand. I assure your Lordships I have good reason for opposing this, because I have seen in practice in the Admiralty the difficulty of making it necessary to lay money out in the way in which it was originally intended; and, if your Lordships were to read the Bill as I have done, you would see that, by coupling the property of Greenwich Hospital together with this property, it is quite possible that a certain portion of the money would not be so laid out. The noble Lord says that the income arises from land and may fluctuate. My Lords, the Admiralty cannot expend money they have not got; but the net income of that property, whatever it may be, ought to be laid out in pensions for lieutenants of the Navy. And, my Lords, the second objection that I make—and I think it is a very pertinent objection—is that this Bill, which is a Bill about the Naval Knights of Windsor, contains a regulation which refers to the property of Greenwich Hospital—an entirely different matter. The noble Lord has not given me any answer upon that; and I should like to call his attention to the fact. It was merely by accident that, by looking at the Bills which he repealed, I found he was repealing the 48th and 49th Vic, cap. 42, sec. 7, and, on looking at that section, I found it was a section which had reference solely to the property of Greenwich Hospital, and had no reference whatever to this matter.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I must say that the answer given by the noble Lord opposite teems to me very unsatisfactory. He says that the Admiralty might be called to account in Parliament. We all know that that might be done; but here you are going to give the Admiralty discretion in a matter in which I do not think they ought to have discretion. The word in the Bill is

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"may"; it ought to be "shall." As to the amount of money, nobody expects the Admiralty will lay out money that they do not possess; but I cannot understand from the noble Lord's answer what the true reasons are. It looks as if there were something behind it which is not satisfactory. As to its being an agreed Bill, it cannot affect the persons concerned in this Charity unfavourably; because, of course, the securing positively by an Act of Parliament that the money shall be devoted to a particular class of persons cannot prejudice them. I hope the noble Lord will not object to put in the word "shall." My Lords, I do not attribute to the present Board of Admiralty any intention of doing anything otherwise than what is right; but this is an Act which is to be for all time, and it would be much better to make it clear and not to leave it to doubt. I know that "may" does sometimes mean "shall," but I am told on good authority that here it would be discretionary. I should bow to a legal opinion if I were told that it means "shall" here; but I am told that it does not; and I confess I should like to know a little more what is the reason for the Admiralty not being willing to alter it.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): A desire to do everything in its wrong place is one of the most powerful of human emotions, and the noble Earl, having the Committee coming on to-morrow or the next day, prefers to discuss now whether your Lordships should put "shall" or "may" into the clause.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I beg your Lordships' pardon; I thought we were in Committee.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I abandon my observation if that is the case. It is really a matter which must be discussed in Committee, and I have no doubt that we shall be able to give a good account of the motives of the Admiralty, which I suspect are not tinged with any such dark intentions as the noble Earl suggests; and I hope we shall have that amount of legal strength in the House which shall enable us to discuss one of the most difficult questions in the British Constitution, namely,
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whether "may" or "shall" should be used in a particular sentence.
*LORD ELPHINSTONE: I would merely say, in answer to my noble Friend, that the noble Earl seems suspicious of the Department that I represent, but there really is nothing behind this. My instructions are, as I mentioned, not to accept any Amendment. All I can undertake to do is, if this Bill is read a second time, to confer with the authorities at the Admiralty.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: And will the noble Lord at the same time point out that Clause 2 deals with the property of Greenwich Hospital? It does, I can assure him; I have looked at the Act.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

GIBRALTAR SANITARY BOARD.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
*LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, before I venture to call the attention of the House to the recent change in the Sanitary Board of Gibraltar I wish to express my thanks to the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, for having so expeditiously and fully furnished the Papers for which I asked. I shall only have to detain the House a very few moments while I call the attention of the House to the change that has taken place in the Sanitary Board. The House is aware that Gibraltar is a fortress and a Crown Colony under the Colonial Office with 20,000 inhabitants and 6,000 soldiers. From 1815 to 1880 the sanitary arrangements were looked after by a civilian Commission which practically represented the ratepayers. In 1880 the military being one-third of the ratepayers, as they paid rates as well, naturally claimed to have some share in the representation, and it was just and right that they should and they came in on the Board, four of the twelve Commissioners being nominated from among the officials on the Rock. That went on happily for three years when special powers were given to the Governor to alter the existing arrangements, and this went on for a few months, when Sir John Adye, the then Governor, found it unworkable. He came back to England; I believe he saw Lord Derby; he pointed out to him

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how unworkable those conditions were, and he got instructions to revert to the old state of things. That brings us on to 1890. I am not going to say that the drainage of Gibraltar was everything that might be desired, but at any rate the statistics, which I will just glance through later on, show that there was no bad health in the Colony. In 1890 Lord Knutsford told Major Tulloch of the Royal Engineers to make a Report about the sanitation of Gibraltar, and that gallant officer made a Report which is in the Blue Book on page 1, in which he remarks that the Sanitary Commissioners are quite incapable of dealing with the question. He says that they do not represent at all the wealth, the intelligence, the influence, or the business capacity of the civilians. He goes into detail about their maladministration, and he goes on to say that they laugh at the War Office and make them pay more than their fair share of the rates. To remedy this state of things Major Tulloch proposes to bore a great tunnel through the Rock from west to east through which the sewage is to be carried out to sea, which he says will have the double advantage that very likely he will be able, with good fortune, to strike upon water. If he does, this will produce a good water supply for the town, and if he does not he proposes to carry the sewage through the Rock into the sea from west to east. If he is fortunate enough to find any water, then he proposes to bore through the Rock south to bring the sewage out at the southern extremity which your Lordships know well is called Europa Point. He considers this a very good plan, and he suggests that the works shall be entrusted to Captain Buckle, whom he describes as a thoroughly practical and scientific man. I have not the pleasure of knowing Captain Buckle, but according to the Gibraltar Ratepayers' Defence Association, whose opinion your Lordships will find on page 18, this officer was removed from his office as engineer to the Sanitary Commission, because he did not give satisfaction, and he is reported to have been twice reprimanded by two Secretaries of State. Lord Knutsford does not seem to agree with that, because he writes on 11th December 1891, that he has every reason to believe that Captain Buckle has given
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every satisfaction, and he regrets that these reprimands should have been alluded to, as they had no connection whatever with his efficiency. My Lords, this brings us on to the next step in which the Secretary of State for the Colonies asserts that there has been neglect of ordinary sanitary requirements, and a lack of intelligence. Against this opinion I have to bring the opinion of Sir John Adye, the then Governor of Gibraltar, who on the 25th February, 1892, wrote—
"In my opinion the inhabitants should be fully represented. I have received great assistance and support from the members of the Commission; and as regards health—
I think this is very important—
the death rate of the civil population is very little more than that of London, much less than that of Liverpool and Manchester; and as regards soldiers, the garrison and medical reports prove that Gibraltar is one of the healthiest stations at home or abroad."
That is to be found at page 3 in the Medical Report. Lord Knutsford, in the same letter that I quoted before of the 11th December, 1891, suggested that the boring recommended by Major Tulloch should be begun at once under Captain Buckle, the Civilian and the Colonial Government each paying half. I see there is a question in the Paper from the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Sidmouth) about the cost of this tunnel. So far as I see in the Papers there is no cost mentioned. I am speaking under correction; but I believe it is the fact that not even a contract is allowed to be entered into, but the whole of this enormous work is to be undertaken by Major Tulloch, R.E., and his friend Captain Buckle. Those of your Lordships who have been soldiers know very well what it is to be handed over to the tender mercies of the Royal Engineers. Those who have been quartered in the Albany Barracks, and in those death traps in Dublin, know pretty well what it is. I do not want to say one word against that class in Her Majesty's Service; but your Lordships will quite understand from old experience how very apprehensive these civilians might be of having the whole of this great sewage operation handed over entirely, without their having a word to say about it, so far as I am instructed, to the Royal

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Engineers. In order to carry out this boring which is recommended by Major Tulloch and is to be begun under Captain Buckle, the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies at once dissolves the old Board and creates a new one; and this new Board is composed of nine members. The Board is composed of the Commanding Royal Engineer and the principal medical officer of the garrison, two Government representatives, one Admiralty representative, two Grand Jury representatives, one Special Jury and one Common Jury representative, who are selected and appointed by the Governor himself. The Chairman of this nominee body is the Colonial Secretary, who has the casting vote; and I think this is rather a significant fact—and there may be not a consensus of opinion about the wisdom of this step—that the Colonial Secretary, Mr. Boyle, has not applied for any increase of salary to counterbalance this great and important increase of work that he will have to do. This Board is to come into power at once, and in fact it is a great deal more unworkable than the old Board which was pronounced unworkable in 1883 by Sir John Adye. Now, my Lords, this brings us to 1892, and I have done. The Colony of Gibraltar protested most strenuously against this, and they asked the Governor what he had to say to it. The Governor said he was precluded from discussing the question at all. Then they formed themselves into a Ratepayers' Defence Association, and they wrote to Lord Knutsford, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, but they got very little redress out of that. Then three of them were appointed as a deputation who came over and stayed in London; they saw the Secretary of State several times, but they went away without any redress either, and the whole thing was finished by a despatch of Sir Lothian Nicholson, who is Governor of Gibraltar, on the 11th of April, 1892, in which he approves of the action of the Colonial Office, and he calls this retrograde movement "a most carefully considered measure of reform"; and he goes on to say in the despatch that he considers two-thirds of the civilians of Gibraltar are foreigners by origin, by connection, and also in language, and that they are only British subjects in name. Their very existence
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there, he says, is not an Imperial necessity, and they should not be granted the position which is held by colonial municipal leaders in other parts of the great British Confederation. Now those who happened to see the reception that those residents, "whose existence is not an Imperial necessity," gave to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales in 1876 are not likely to forget it. My Lords, they are just as loyal and just as devoted to the Crown of England as any other Colonist in any other part of Her Majesty's Dominions. My Lords, we shall be told now, of course, that Gibraltar is not a Colony, it is a fortress, and that it is of paramount importance that it should be treated as a fortress—we all say so, of course—all Gibraltar would say so too. But, my Lords, municipal improvements are not Imperial defences and Gibraltar is not defended by sewage works; and therefore I shall conclude these few observations by asking the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he approves of this language of the Governor, and I shall ask the House whether it approves of what I may fairly, I think, call the harsh treatment of our Colonists in Gibraltar by the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Lord KNUTSFORD): My Lords, I am in the first place desirous, in return for what the noble Lord is good enough to say of me, to thank him for his courtesy for having deferred this Debate from the first day on which it was put down. I confess I am rather surprised at the light way in which the noble Lord has passed over this case. He has admitted that there is a strong feeling in the Colony as regards the change that has now been made; but he has not really attempted to attack the Government for the action it has taken except by stating generally that Sir John Adye disagrees with the change; that the former Board with some slight exceptions did their work very well; and that on the present Board the ratepayers are not sufficiently represented. I hope before I sit down to show your Lordships that on every one of those points the noble Lord is wrong,—or rather I will not say the noble Lord is wrong, but those whose cause he represents here are wrong and have mis-stated their case.

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It is not necessary for me now to bring again before your Lordships the character of this place, Gibraltar. The noble Lord has admitted that it is a fortress primarily, and that on one side of this fortress no doubt a town has sprung up with a population of about 19,000 people, of whom 3,000 are aliens. It is also an important coaling station, both for Her Majesty's ships and for trading vessels. When the noble Lord says that this place is not defended by a system of sewage, I am prepared to grant that; but when I state that it is a fortress, and that there are a number of soldiers constantly on the Rock, I think it may fairly be said that it is a very important thing for the War Office that Gibraltar should be kept in a sound sanitary condition. And I now propose to show in what state that town has been left by the Commissioners whom I have superseded. The noble Lord, I think, was right in saying that up to the year 1883 the Commissioners consisted of twelve civilians; but in 1882 as the work was badly done, and in order to protect the paramount interests of the War Office and the Admiralty, there was a change made, and the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley) in the strongest way pronounced in favour of a more direct influence being given to the Governor, and also to the Departments. That change was highly approved by Lord Napier of Magdala, who was then Governor of Gibraltar; it was approved also by Lord Derby, who succeeded the noble Earl opposite as Secretary of State for the Colonies. The Board was changed in this respect: that instead of twelve Commissioners all unofficial, four official members were appointed, and certain powers were taken away from the Board, and vested in the Governor, so that he might have a more direct control and influence over the important questions of sanitation, drainage and water supply in the Colony. It is true that afterwards a local opposition sprung up, and that Sir John Adye did think it best that the powers which were vested in the Sanitary Board should be restored to them. I am not prepared now, nor do I desire to find fault with that decision of Sir John Adye, which was confirmed by Lord Derby. But I cannot help thinking that the result has shown that the decision was a most unfortunate one. The Board
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did not improve in the work that they did. There were constant complaints by the Admiralty of the serious nuisance from the outfall of the sewer on the west side. There was no attempt made by the Board to deal with the sanitary state of Gibraltar, with the overcrowding, and the deficiency of water, or the general insanitary condition of the dwellings. It was difficult to get people of any position or influence to act upon the Board—indeed, in 1890, to fill up two vacancies twelve persons were pressed to act and declined to do so. It was difficult to get a quorum very often, and there was generally a very indifferent attendance. I am not saying that the unofficial Civil Commissioners are alone to blame; I think considerable blame attaches to the official members of the Board; I think they ought to have exercised more influence and insisted upon more attendances, and on the work being done. However, in view of that state of things and the repeated complaints of the Naval and Military Departments it was decided, as the noble Lord has said, to send out a thoroughly competent and efficient engineer in whose judgment and capacity Her Majesty's Government could have full confidence; and after consideration they selected Major Tulloch, who, as Engineer Officer for the Local Government Board, has had very large experience in sanitary questions. After an exhaustive inquiry, Major Tulloch made two Reports. The noble Lord has only referred to the Report which was of a confidential nature at first, but which I thought it better to include in this last Paper that has been presented to Parliament. The original Report is of great length and goes most exhaustively into the subject, and has a number of maps attached to it; copies of that Report were placed in the Libraries of both Houses. I regret to say that as I am defending the action of Her Majesty's Government in superseding the Board of Commissioners, it is my duty and it is necessary for me to refer to Major Tulloch's Report as showing the state of things in Gibraltar which had been brought about by the inefficiency and inaction of the Board. At page 6 of the first Report, that is to say the Report that is now in the Libraries of the Houses,

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Major Tulloch in describing the condition of the patios or courtyards says—
"Considering that these patios are used for all kinds of purposes, that mules and donkeys are often tethered in them, and that poultry are kept there, the state of things can be better imagined than described. The whole atmosphere is reeking with the constantly rising exhalations from filth. … In parts of the town some of the rooms also in the houses which are used as dormitories have only doors—no windows. When therefore the inhabitants retire for the night and close the doors, there are all the conditions for typhus."
But, my Lords, even such an elementary duty for a Sanitary Authority to perform as the removal of dry refuse, they were unable to carry out. At page 10, Major Tulloch says—
"The carts in which the dust is collected are often so over-filled that the lids cannot be shut down, and the refuse is then apt to be blown about in all directions. It is finally disposed of by being thrown into the sea, but without any reference to the state of the tide and current prevailing at the time. The shore on both sides of the shoot is littered with refuse, and a very objectionable state of things is produced."
Well, then, let us turn to the terrible evil of overcrowding — what does Major Tulloch report upon that? He points out that the density of the population in the town is as great as in some of the worst districts of London, while the accommodation, owing to the lowness of the houses, is very much less. Some idea of the state of things in this respect may be gathered from the figures of the recent Census. There are 1,036 single room tenements inhabited by 3,214 persons, or over one-sixth of the total population. Some of these single rooms are inhabited by as many as ten and eleven persons. One hundred and twenty-three of them are inhabited by 844 persons, or an average of about seven persons in each room, and 1,875 persons lived in 360 rooms, an average of more than five per room. Health, not to mention decency, in a climate like Gibraltar, is impossible under such conditions. If I turn again to the important question of water supply, Major Tulloch observes on page 16 that drinking water is charged for at the rate of 8s. 4d. per 1,000 gallons, and the total public supply of good water available for the civil population amounts to not two quarts per head per diem, while brackish water unfit for dietetic purposes is charged for at the rate of
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2s. 6d. per 1,000 gallons. That subject had been brought to the notice of the Commissioners by Colonel Cox in 1877, and he showed how the civil population was being relieved of rates at the expense of the War Office; but still those Commissioners did nothing. I admit that that is a difficult question, but they made no practicable attempt to deal with the question of the water supply. Then I turn to the system of sewerage. At page 31 of the Report, Major Tulloch says—
"The sewage from the northern and middle outfall cannot flow right away to the sea, but keeps zigzagging up and down the coast line, and gradually deposits most of its solid matter on the foreshore, which when exposed in summer to a hot sun makes the western side of the Rock so offensive."
And your Lordships will bear in mind that the most densely inhabited portion of the town is on the west side, and that therefore the alteration on that side is manifestly specially necessary. The main or southern outfall is only a few yards from the dockyard, and has almost since its construction been the subject of complaint from the Admiralty. Speaking of his inspection of it Major Tulloch says:—
"Although it was in December, the stink from the sewage which we smelt standing on the new mole, where Her Majesty's ships lie when coaling, was sickening. A nuisance of this kind cannot be continued with impunity. The people employed near the locality must suffer in health sooner or later."
Then he goes on (I will not trouble your Lordships with much more) to show that the sewers themselves are badly constructed, that some have too slight gradients, some are broken and leak, and so on. And, my Lords, the Commissioners cannot plead ignorance of these facts, because their attention was specially drawn to them in 1884 by the present Colonial Engineer, Captain Buckle, who was then the engineering adviser of the Board; but nothing was done. The Health Officer's Reports constantly pressed these questions upon the attention of the Commissioners; but for some reason or other no effective steps were taken to remedy any one of these evils. And perhaps one of the most striking proofs of their inefficiency was this: that during something like 25 years since the Sanitary Board was started, only one bye-law, I believe, was passed with the object of

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preventing infectious diseases in lodgings. My Lords, it must be manifest to anyone that a town cannot be kept in a proper sanitary condition unless the inspecting officers have some power of enforcing the remedies which are necessary. They can report; but they can do no more,—they can effect no amendment. I think this perhaps is one of the most striking instances as showing the inefficiency of the Board. There are some other subjects which are touched upon in the Governor's despatch of 22nd May which also show how sorely a new Board was wanted. In 1890 Major Tulloch reported as to the useless consumption of coal. He says—
"There is a large useless consumption of coal taking place on the north front, and the Commissioners have been perfectly aware of this for years, inasmuch as two experts, Mr. Melrose and Captain Jelf, R.E., investigated the subject in 1882, and having pronounced the pumping engine to be 'antique' reported 'that they were confident that the substitution of modern engines of the compound condensing type would result in a very considerable measure of economy.'"
Designs and tenders were sent out for those engines, but nothing was done. Now it has been stated in a Paper which appears in the Parliamentary Papers and is headed "Facts about Gibraltar" that after Major Tulloch's Report was published in the Colony the Board set to work to carry out his suggestions. I regret to say that that is a complete fallacy, which is put an end to altogether by a statement of the Governor in his Despatch of 11th April (on page 30) as to what this Board had done after Major Tulloch's Report. He says—
"It is scarcely borne out that 'the Board at once endeavoured to carry out Major Tulloch's recommendations as far as was possible.' The provision of new engines for the North Front was certainly taken in hand; some deodorisation of the main drain at Europa was attempted—and the preparation of the bye-laws was commenced, but these drafts were left incomplete, and in so crude a state that the present Board have practically to reconstruct them, a work which is still occupying their earnest and constant attention. Catalan Bay improvements were negatived by the late Board; the dust destructor was declared to be unnecessary; the engines both at Southport Ditch, and at the North Front, were run in a ruinous manner—ruinous alike to the machinery, and in the cost of coal, and little or nothing was apparently done to secure the many sanitary improvements in dwellings and amongst the community generally, which Major Tulloch had so exhaustively pointed out."
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And it also appears from the Governor's Despatch of 2nd May, 1892 (on page 34) how entirely they neglected the state of the engines and the machinery at the North Front—a neglect which the Governor very properly characterises as "discreditable." I have referred to the fact of the careless consumption of coal, and I may here observe that since the new Board came into operation they have in about four months saved no less than 248 tons of coal. I would further remark that the great number of nuisances that have been dealt with by the new Board, and which are referred to in pages 37 and 38 of the Parliamentary Paper, show how great was the neglect of the former Board up to the time of its dissolution. The noble Lord has referred to the rate of mortality, and he says that Sir John Adye has said that it was not at all a high rate, and that on the whole, as I understand, the noble Lord is satisfied with the rate of mortality. Now Major Tulloch, by the figures which he set out in his first Report, showed that the mortality was 24·5 per 1,000 among the whole population, that is to say the fixed and alien population, and that it was 25·0 among the fixed population. Those figures were disputed by the delegates, I think in their papers, but at all events they were disputed by them before me, and different figures were brought forward showing a smaller death-rate. But those figures were based upon the Report of the Medical Officer, and it would seem that the Medical Officer made a curious mistake in his calculation of the death-rate, because he took the deaths of the fixed population, that is to say he excluded the aliens, casual seamen brought in for hospital treatment and so on, but having taken the deaths of the fixed population, in calculating the rate of mortality, instead of dividing those deaths by the fixed population it would seem that he divided them by the whole population including aliens; and as a matter of fact the death-rate amongst the aliens is considerably smaller than the death-rate amongst the fixed population; and therefore by dividing the deaths of the fixed population by the whole population including the aliens he materially brought down the death-rate. Whether that

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is the explanation or not it is not necessary for me to inquire into it any further, because all the figures have now been carefully gone into by Surgeon Captain Macpherson, who has had the advantage of having the last Census before him, and his Report will be found upon pages 47 to 59 of the Parliamentary Paper which has just been presented. I do not intend now to trouble your Lordships with details; it is impossible to go into them; but there can be no doubt of this: that while he shows a good death-rate for 1891 (which was certainly a good year) the figures he brings forward, which can be found in that Paper, show a death-rate in 1890 of 22·17 for the total civil population, that is to say the population which includes the aliens whose death-rate is smaller than that of the fixed population, and of 24·71 for the fixed civil population.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: On what page does the noble Lord find that? On page 63, which appears to be the final account, those are not the figures; I admit that there is not much difference.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: I am not sure of the page, but the figures will be found correct. Taking the decennial period he finds a rate of 23·06 for the total population, and 25·83 for the fixed civil population which is rather higher than Major Tulloch makes it. No doubt the year 1891 was a satisfactory year, and though it is not quite safe to take it, looking to the ups and downs of former years in the death-rate, we may hope that, with the improvements that will be made by this new Board, we shall keep down the death-rate as in 1891. It is certain that this large mortality is due to insanitary conditions, because we find that the Health Officer of the late Sanitary Commission, in his Report for 1889, points out the abnormal death-rate among the infant population, and says that one-third of all the deaths in Gibraltar are of children under five years of age, and again that quite one-third of all the children born in the town do not reach the age of five. So much then for the rate of mortality, which I think is not a very good one, and is certainly capable of improvement if we can get the sanitary condition of Gibraltar in a better state, and diminish the difficulties and dangers from over-crowding, get
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a better supply of water and remove the drainage to the East. I may now perhaps deal with another point to which the noble Lord has referred, and which was very strongly pressed by the delegates—I mean the claim that they ought to be represented by two-thirds of the members of the Board on the ground that they pay two-thirds of the rates. That statement again is very misleading. There is a general sanitary rate of which the civil inhabitants do pay two-thirds; but there is a water rate which brings in about an equal amount with the general rate, and of that water rate the private ratepayers contribute less than two-fifths; and, if we take the total rates, the Government Departments contribute about five-elevenths of the gross revenue from the rates, while they have in addition given capital contributions to about one-third of the work done by the Sanitary Board. Therefore, taking those figures, the Departments could fairly claim a larger representation than they now have on the Board. They have now five members, as the noble Lord pointed out, against four. And as regards the work which is proposed by Major Tulloch—namely, the tunnel, it is said that two-thirds of the cost are to fall upon the general sanitary rate; but, as I have pointed out, the civil inhabitants only pay two-thirds of that rate; and therefore four-ninths is the proportion they ought to bear of representation on the Board. And that is about the proportion that they do bear. If you take the basis of population again at 19,000—it must be remembered that of those about 3,000 are aliens on permit—there again their proportion of representation on the Board is a fair one. But, my Lords, I desire to guard myself against admitting that in a military outpost like Gibraltar, and in a place where there is a large military garrison, the civil inhabitants have an absolute right to be represented either according to the rates they pay or according to the population. It is right, of course, that they should have as much representation as they can have consistently with the government and the character of the place, and with the paramount interests of the Army and Navy. My Lords, the principle that they contend for at Gibraltar is not upheld in

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Colombo, Singapore, or Hong Kong; in all those places the representation does not depend either upon the rates paid or upon the population. Another point that was raised by the noble Lord, that the Governor should not have the power to appoint the Chairman of the Board, is also untenable, because I believe it is without precedent in any of these places—places be it observed where the garrison and the Government bear a much smaller proportion to the private inhabitants than they do at Gibraltar—for in none of them is the principle admitted, and in none does the appointment of the Chairman of the Municipal Board vest in any other person but the Governor. I think, therefore, I have established two points: first that the Board which I superseded by the present Board did their work most inefficiently, that they were not equal to coping with the general sanitary requirements of the town, and therefore were still less fit to deal with the important sewerage work which is contemplated by Major Tulloch, and which has been pressed upon us by both the War Office and the Admiralty for many years; and, secondly, that whether we look to rates or population, the ratepayers are not unfairly represented on the new Sanitary Board. I must now turn to the grievances that have been brought under your Lordships' notice, some of them by the noble Lord, and some others which have been brought before me by the delegates. The first grievance, which I do not think the noble Lord mentioned, was that the Order in Council was published and put into force at once. That course was not without precedent, though I am ready to admit that as a general rule, except in matters of small importance, Orders in Council should be published in the papers so that objections may be raised and the opinions of the inhabitants made known upon them before they are brought into operation. But, my Lords, looking to the state of things which existed, looking to the deadlock which existed, looking to the complaints that were received from the Departments; looking to the necessity for improving the condition of Gibraltar, and especially by carrying out the important works recommended by Major Tulloch, I venture to think as was said by Lord
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Derby in 1883, or by the noble Earl opposite,—I am not sure which—
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It must have been Lord Derby; I was not Colonial Secretary in 1883.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: It might have been in 1882—
"The continued existence of conditions thus detrimental to the public welfare would be very undesirable, even if the circumstances of Gibraltar did not require an exceptional degree of efficiency in sanitary administration."
I say that this was a case, if ever there was a case, for at once proceeding to put the Order in Council in operation. It would have been impossible to delay until all objections which could be made to the Order in Council were disposed of; as it is, the Order was published in October last and the objections still continue to thrive, and have not yet been disposed of. All that time would have gone on, and the good work which has been done by the new Board would have been entirely lost. The new Board have, I believe, nearly finished their code of bye-laws. I have pointed out the nuisances that have been removed by them; the good that has been done in dealing with the question of overcrowding, and also in the great saving of coal and putting the engines and sewers in a fit state; and I would also observe that the Order in Council especially provides that if Amendments are desired they can be made by Ordinance. The Order in Council can, therefore, be very easily amended, and the objections removed if they are established to my satisfaction. The second objection was as to the mode of appointing the four unofficial members. As the noble Lord has pointed out the old plan was for the Governor to appoint the members out of the panel of the Grand Jury and eight names submitted by the Grand Jury. We thought it desirable that the Governor should have a larger area of selection, and therefore by the Order in Council he was empowered to take two members from the panel of the Grand Jury, one from the panel of the Special Jury, and one from the panel of the Common Jury; in this way it was thought we should get more representative members on the Board. But I have been anxious from the very beginning so far as I could to meet the delegates, and

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to meet the wishes of the inhabitants, and to get the opposition to the Order in Council withdrawn; and therefore I agreed that if opposition was withdrawn on other points, I would revert to the old plan and direct the Governor to choose from the panel of the Grand Jury and eight names presented by them. I do not think that is the best plan, but it was not so important a matter that one need hesitate about the concession; and the Governor, though still preferring the new plan, has agreed to it. Then the third objection was to the Colonial Secretary being a member of the Board and Chairman. Well, my Lords, I think it would be quite impossible in a place like Gibraltar that the Colonial Secretary should not be a member of the Sanitary Board; he is perhaps the most influential man next to the Governor, and it is most desirable that he should be closely in touch with all the important work that is going on in the Colony, and every question is important of course that affects the health of the Colony. I could not therefore concede the point that the Colonial Secretary should not be a member of the Board. But in addition to that the delegates when before me desired that they might appoint their Chairman out of the official members. I have pointed out to your Lordships that in all these cases the Governor does appoint the Chairman. But there would be an especial objection to the unofficial members appointing the Chairman out of the official members; because, if they chose to pass over the Colonial Secretary and the Commanding Royal Engineer, they would have to appoint one of the medical officers; and it is scarcely necessary to observe that the Colonial Secretary and the Commanding Royal Engineer would hardly be willing to serve on a Board of which the Chairman was their inferior in precedence and rank. Then the fourth objection which is most strongly urged is that which was brought before your Lordships by the noble Lord opposite, namely, the objection to the Colonial Engineer being the Engineer of the Board. And it is a two-fold objection; first on the ground that the duties of the Colonial Engineer and the Engineer of the Board are incompatible; and, secondly, on personal grounds to
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Captain Buckle. Now, as regards the general objection, the union of these offices of Sanitary Engineer and Colonial Engineer was very strongly urged by Lord Napier of Magdala when he was Governor of Gibraltar. Instructions were sent out, in conformity with his advice, by the noble Earl opposite in 1882, and were confirmed in January 1883 by Lord Derby. It is not true that Captain Buckle was removed from his offices. It is true that the duties were subsequently separated at the suggestion and instance of Sir John Adye, who succeeded Lord Napier of Magdala as Governor; but it is open to us to re-consider the question; and, upon the best reflection and consideration that we can give to the case, we have arrived at the conclusion which was arrived at by the noble Earl opposite and others and by Lord Napier of Magdala, that economy and efficiency are best secured by the appointment of the Colonial Engineer to act as Engineer of the Board. My Lords, here again I would point out that, being anxious to make any concession I could to the delegates and ratepayers, I agreed to this: that when these important works of the tunnel have been done, with which I consider the old Board was absolutely unable to cope, and supposing there is no other equally important work connected with the water supply going on, I think it reasonable, and I told them so, that they should bring up again this question of the combination of duties before the Secretary of State for the time being. I confess that if I were in office I should be very loth, unless a very strong case were made out, to saddle the ratepayers, who have now a very small sum to pay for which they secure a thoroughly competent and efficient officer, with the large sum that they would have to pay for the salary of such a thoroughly efficient officer if they determined to have an Engineer of their own. My Lords, as to the personal question, the committee of the Ratepayers' Association have made charges against Captain Buckle as to the performance of certain public works that he had to undertake as Colonial Engineer, and I thought it right, as they had made those charges, both in the interests of Captain Buckle as well as those of the ratepayers to examine into the subject, and I appointed a

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Commission to perform that work. The inquiry of that Commission has not yet been concluded; but I must say that, from the high opinion of Captain Buckle's professional qualifications which was formed from knowledge of his work both by Lord Napier of Magdala, by Major Tulloch, and by others, I have very little doubt that it will be found that the public works which he has executed have been executed with great efficiency and economy; and I think it is only due to Captain Buckle that I should read the high opinion entertained by Major Tulloch as to his capabilities—and that is the last quotation which I will make. In the first Report Major Tulloch shows that the tunnel scheme for the sewer outfall was practically Captain Buckle's own; and the passage to which I will refer is on page 4 of the Parliamentary Paper, in which the writer says—
"It is essential that the officials should be able men, and the Commission will certainly require an engineer of knowledge, experience, energy, and determination. The present Colonial Engineer is specially marked out for this post by not only his intimate acquaintance with Gibraltar after many years' residence there, which is simply invaluable, but by his high scientific attainments and practical skill as a civil engineer. My official position at the Local Government Board necessarily brings me into constant personal communication with most of the eminent sanitary engineers of England, and I have, therefore, rare opportunities of gauging the knowledge possessed by these men and their scientific attainments, but I am glad to say that I found Captain Buckle to be in no respects behind these gentlemen. He is a thoroughly scientific and practical man, and it was one of the great advantages I had during my visit to the Colony to be able to discuss every question of geology, water supply, sewerage, or any other subject which arose in my work with a man so well up in them."
Well my Lords I think I am justified with that kind of testimony to Captain Buckle, to express again, as I do most sincerely, my regret that the committee of ratepayers should have referred to the two cases in which Captain Buckle's action was not approved by the Secretary of State. They knew perfectly well that those questions had nothing to do with the efficiency of Captain Buckle as the Colonial Engineer; and yet they have thought it right to bring forward these questions and raise these points as against Captain Buckle in a question which is a question of engineering, whether he is a
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fitting person to be the Engineer of the Board. Another concession which I was able to make to the delegates was that Section 17 of the Order in Council, which gave special powers to the Governor, should be repealed. It was lastly urged that this tunnel scheme should be delayed for further inquiry by a competent engineer sent from this country to examine it on the spot. Well, I was not prepared to concede that. I stated to the delegates that very full and careful consideration had been given, and I added that further consideration should be given if necessary to the details of the scheme, and to the way in which it should be carried out. Let me observe that Major Tulloch had before him the Report of Sir Andrew Ramsay and Sir Archibald Geikie upon the geological formation of Gibraltar, and I suppose it is hardly possible to find two more eminent geologists than those two gentlemen; he had also the Reports of Mr. Roberts, C.E., Mr. Dixon, C.E., of Lieutenant Colonel Cox in 1887, of the medical officers year after year, and of Captain Buckle. All these Reports were examined into and carefully noted by Major Tulloch, and Major Tulloch's Report when it came to me was referred to and examined by a Departmental Committee in this country. The only criticism upon Major Tulloch's Report has been made by a Mr. Yockney, an engineer I daresay of eminence here, but who had very little information before him; he certainly had not all the Reports before him that Major Tulloch had, and he had never been on the spot; he was therefore unable to judge for himself of the character and condition of the rock at Gibraltar. I may add, as I have undertaken to present some more Papers in answer to the noble Lord, that there is a report by Colonel Fellowes, the Commanding Royal Engineer at Gibraltar, which to my mind completely disposes of Mr. Yockney's Report. My Lords a misapprehension prevails (I am partly now answering the noble Viscount behind me) as to Major Tulloch's Report and the action taken upon it. While Major Tulloch was making inquiry into the best way of diverting the sewage from the west to the east of the rock, he was of course fully aware of the enormous importance to the garrison, as well as to the civil inhabitants, of

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improving the water supply, and he had his attention directed to whether there could be any new source of water found. Now he admits himself he is not too sanguine as to the result of the experiment which he has suggested, nor can he guarantee a sufficiency of water; nor indeed that it shall not, if over pumped, be of a brackish quality. Yet the importance is so great of finding new sources that the experiment he has suggested is very strongly advocated by him; and I may say it has been twice under the consideration of the War Office and the Admiralty, and they have concurred with Major Tulloch. I would just point out exactly what Major Tulloch's practical proposal, as he calls it, is; it is on page 42 of his Report—
"Practically, my proposal is this: Drive a tunnel through the hill as if for a sewer. After it has been driven about three hundred yards, search for water. If water is found, continue the tunnel as a water conduit and intercepting channel. If water is not found, continue the tunnel through the mountain as a sewer."
That was the original plan of Captain Buckle, who was then only considering how to dispose of the sewage,—that it should be conducted from west to east by a tunnel; and the only difference is that Major Tulloch, thinking from his obser-servations that water may be found in the rock and feeling the great importance of finding it if possible, suggests that an experimental tunnel should be made, and that before it is decided finally to send the sewage through the tunnel from west to east, it should be seen whether there is a good chance of getting water and a sufficient supply of water. No doubt that will create some delay, and the present Sanitary Board, who are considering Major Tulloch's scheme, are so impressed with the importance of dealing with the sewage question and carrying the sewage through a tunnel from west to east, that they desire to abandon all chance of getting water, and at once to commence this tunnel at both ends so that within a short time the sewage may be diverted. That is the point of difference between the present Sanitary Board and Major Tulloch's Report; and as I said before the Report of Major Tulloch was referred both to the War Office and to the Admiralty, and within the last two days I have received the concurrence of both
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the War Office and the Admiralty in carrying out and giving effect to Major Tulloch's scheme. If there is one question that is important in Gibraltar it is the water supply. The water supply in the North Front is not altogether satisfactory; and in time of war it is a question how far it could be made use of. I hope, in conclusion, that I have shown your Lordships that Her Majesty's Government have not acted hastily in putting an end to a Board of Commissioners who had shown themselves unequal to deal with the sanitary condition of Gibraltar, and that on the new Board the ratepayers are fairly represented. I have shown also, I trust, that I have endeavoured in every way to meet as far as I could the wishes of the delegates, and have made all the concessions possible consistently with Imperial interests. And lastly I have shown that Major Tulloch's scheme is really the scheme that we must endeavour to put in force. The noble Lord is under some misapprehension in arriving at the conclusion that there are to be no specifications and no contract. There was a question whether this work might not be more effectively done by the sappers and civilians working together under the orders of the Board and the Colonial Engineer. But that suggestion has not been accepted, and the decision of the War Office is to the contrary. I think my Lords I have nothing more to add; I am only sorry to have kept your Lordships so long; but the question is one of very great importance no doubt,—it has been very strongly pressed upon me, and I admit fully that there has been considerable feeling in the Colony on the point.
*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords I do not wish to trouble the House with a detailed commentary upon the interesting explanations of the noble Lord opposite; but I think there are one or two points worthy of notice in his statement. First of all I should like to refer, as the noble Lord referred first to it, to Major Tulloch's Report. Now Major Tulloch's Report I have no doubt showed a great deficiency in the sanitary arrangements of Gibraltar; I assume that is a fact, and I am afraid that deficiency exists in a great many towns besides Gibraltar. But the urgency of the case must be judged of by the con-

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dition of the health of Gibraltar; and, notwithstanding the statistics to which the noble Lord referred, I cannot find any distinct proof that the condition of the health of Gibraltar was at all of an alarming kind, or indeed that it was inferior to that which you find in most towns. I am not going to draw the conclusion I might, but it almost seems to follow that, assuming Major Tulloch's descriptions are not too highly coloured, the existence of these extraordinary nuisances in a crowded town like Gibraltar are not incompatible with the very fair condition of health of the population; and I must say that that is so very surprising an inference that I am almost inclined to think that Major Tulloch must have been run away with to a certain extent by his sanitary enthusiasm. Now what is the death-rate? There has been a good deal of misunderstanding I believe about it. I take the figures from what I suppose is the final conclusion of the Medical Officer; it is in the Appendix to his Report at page 63, where he compares the death-rate as corrected in Gibraltar with the death-rate in a variety of large English towns: it does not differ much from the figures that the noble Lord quoted, but you will find the total civil death-rate in 1891 happened to be remarkably low. I do not lay stress upon that fact, but it is the fact that the death-rate was remarkably low in the year when this change was made.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: That was after the new Board got to work.
*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I know it was; but I do not think it could have produced that effect in that time. I think it would be very unwise to lay stress upon that particular year. No doubt the proper method is to take a series of years, as the Medical Officer has done, and he finds the correct death-rate of the civil population is 25·31, and the death-rate of the fixed civil population 25·83. Now let us compare that with the large towns here as the Medical Officer himself compares it, and I will just read some of the towns where the death-rate in England is as high, or was at least in 1891: Newcastle 25·1; Huddersfield 25·2; Sheffield 25·7; Sunderland 26·0; Blackburn 28·1; Salford 28·3; Oldham 28·5; Liverpool 28·6; Manchester 29·5; and Preston 29·6.
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When we find that with all our sanitary legislation in this country, in a considerable number of our large towns the death-rate is much higher than the average death-rate as shown here in Gibraltar, I do not think it can be said that there was a case of very pressing necessity. I do not for a moment believe that the sanitary condition of Gibraltar cannot be improved, and I daresay it is in many respects unsatisfactory; but I do not think there was any very urgent case in that respect. That bears upon the next remark that I desire to make, and it is this: that although the noble Lord has explained some points satisfactorily, I do not think he did answer the objection that has been made to the course he took in publishing this Order in Council without giving the usual opportunity to the populate in of Gibraltar to express their opinions upon it. I agree with the noble Lord entirely that if there is a case of urgency that interval cannot be allowed. But what possible urgency could there be in the present case of so extraordinary a kind when we find the death-rate, after all, was not so high as in many of the large towns in England? I do not deny that it may be very proper and right—I have no doubt it is—to bring about a better sanitary condition of Gibraltar; but why offend the population by what I must term very hasty and unnecessary proceedings; and why not pursue the ordinary course which the Gibraltar population are accustomed to necessarily and have come to consider a custom that ought not to be infringed except for strong reasons, instead of publishing this Order in Council without hearing what they have to say? I cannot help thinking that the noble Lord has brought about a great deal of the opposition and trouble that has come upon him individually in consequence of his not having adopted the simple expedient of letting the Gibraltar people say what they had to say and then deciding upon what he thought was right. Now the noble Lord said (and I agree with him entirely) that the case of a fortress like Gibraltar is a special case. You cannot deal with the population in a fortress like Gibraltar in the same way that you would with a civil population elsewhere. But all the more necessary is it where you have a considerable

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civil population (like Malta, where the noble Lord knows what difficulties there have been, as at Gibraltar) to be extremely careful to consult whenever you possibly can the wishes of the population, and not to offend their susceptibilities if it can be helped. Now I must comment upon what the noble Lord opposite is by no means responsible for, but what I think a most unfortunate circumstance—this extraordinary paragraph in the Despatch of the Governor. I must read the whole of it. The Governor in writing on this subject says—
"British subjects in name, fully two-thirds of the civilian residential population are foreigners by origin, by connection and in language. They cannot occupy, and should not be granted, the position held by municipal leaders in the Mother Country, and in her Colonies properly so called. Their existence here is not an Imperial necessity; their taxation, whether for purposes of municipal or general administration, is abnormally light, and their claims for self-government, which is practically what they seek, are in no way parallel to those which are, with reason, advanced, and with policy, admitted, in other dependencies of the Crown."
There may be something to be said for the latter part of the sentence; but what are we to say of a Governor who is guilty of the extraordinary indiscretion and impropriety of speaking of subjects of the Crown, as loyal men I believe as any in our Colonial Empire, in terms of the most insulting kind? Are we, who have an Empire largely composed of men who are not British born, to sneer at the subjects of the Queen as foreigners, and to say that they are not entitled to rights because they are foreign-born? And remember, my Lords, these foreigners are Europeans; they are not Asiatics whom perhaps you may think you can treat with less consideration, these are Europeans coming of a very proud race and occupying a town which we hold in circumstances of great peculiarity. I cannot conceive of any part of Her Majesty's dominions in which it is not necessary, in every point of view, not to offend in the slightest degree the susceptibilities of the inhabitants of the Colony; and the Governor positively in a public Despatch (and if it had come into my hands it never would have seen the light in a Blue Book, so exceedingly wrong do I think it) says that, because these men are foreign-born, therefore they are to be treated differently
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from British-born subjects! I can only say that I hope the noble Lord opposite has conveyed in some way or other to the Governor (who is a most excellent military officer and an admirable soldier I have no doubt) that such language can only be excused from his apparent entire inexperience of civil administration. I must say I regret extremely that the inhabitants of Gibraltar have not been dealt with in this matter with a little more tenderness. I am most willing to admit that on some points the noble Lord has met the delegation in a fair spirit, and has made concessions to them which are undoubtedly such as ought to a certain extent to give them satisfaction. The noble Lord has agreed to strike out of the Order in Council the seventeenth clause which gave to the Governor the complete power of ordering certain works to be done. I think that is a very considerable concession, and I hope the inhabitants of Gibraltar will regard it (for I am not at all desirous of promoting dissension in this matter, but the contrary) as a substantial concession on the part of the noble Lord. The noble Lord has also made a concession to them with regard to choosing from the panel presented by the Grand Jury. That also I think is a very reasonable concession; and although there may be opinions in favour of the other mode of selection, I cannot help thinking that the concession which the noble Lord has made will not at all impair the efficiency of his Sanitary Board. Then comes the question of the Colonial Engineer; and the noble Lord has told me, what no doubt is quite correct, that I was in favour of and directed the measure to be taken which he has now taken of making the Colonial Engineer the Engineer to the Sanitary Board. I have no doubt there are strong reasons in its favour; at the same time there is something to be said on the other side, and I am very glad to hear from the noble Lord that after these works are dealt with he thinks it may be possible to consult the wishes of the inhabitants on that point. I think that is a fair mode of looking at the matter, and I trust that also will be received with a certain amount of satisfaction. With regard to the Chairman I am sorry that the noble Lord did not see his way to make a concession. I do not think it

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can be essential for the working of the Sanitary Board that the Colonial Secretary should be Chairman. The noble Lord will observe that in some of the other Colonies to which he referred the population is not entirely European. I should have been inclined to think that upon that point some concession might have been made.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: The Governor has the power to appoint any one of the members official or unofficial Chairman; he might appoint the Commanding Royal Engineer if any particular objection was taken to the Colonial Secretary; but all I meant was I could not conceive that the unofficial members should appoint from the official members.
*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I think the whole body together might have presented a Chairman to the Governor (I do not lay it down as a necessary matter) the Governor having, as I think he must in any case have, a veto upon the appointment. It probably would have come to the same thing, but it might have been more agreeable to the inhabitants. Those are the chief points I believe of which the Colonists complain. Now the other matter is with regard to obtaining water for Gibraltar. My Lords, I have a lively remembrance of the questions which continually arose, when I was Secretary of State, as regards obtaining water at Gibraltar. The supply of water at Gibraltar, as everyone knows, is extremely unsatisfactory, and I remember various attempts being made, which unfortunately failed, to obtain a good supply of water. I do not think Major Tulloch was quite just to the old Sanitary Board in mentioning brackish water as a grievance. I do not think the present Sanitary Board, any more than any other authority, has been able yet to find out how to get a proper supply of water for Gibraltar.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: I do not think he laid that to their charge.
*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: It was mentioned as one of the grievances of Gibraltar. All I would say is this: I understand that the inhabitants have a strong opinion that the particular mode in which it is proposed to conduct the sewage away from the harbour, which must evidently be a most necessary operation—namely, by a tunnel from west to east of the rock, is not the best
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mode if there is another way by which it can be conducted beyond Europa Point.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: That is a tunnel too. There is no objection to the tunnel as a tunnel; but the tunnel at Europa Point would cost nearly half as much again.
*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am correct in saying that they think an alternative scheme of some kind would be better, and they think it would be very desirable if an eminent engineer unconnected with the Admiralty, the War Office, or Gibraltar would give his opinion upon the scheme,—which I venture to think is by no means an unreasonable proposal. I have a vivid recollection of more than one occasion during the time I had the honour to hold the seals of the Colonial Office when schemes were presented to us, supported most strongly by engineers perhaps not of the highest eminence, which by careful examination afterwards were found to be entirely untenable. Very considerable expenditure will have to be gone into in this matter, which is a matter of great importance, and if the inhabitants who will have to contribute the greater portion of that expenditure really desire that some eminent engineer should be consulted, over and above the opinions that have been taken, I should have thought that was a matter which might be conceded to them. My Lords, I do not know that I have any further observation to make. I hope the noble Lord will not think I have been endeavouring to interpose difficulties in his way in settling the question; that is not my desire. I wish for harmony, and that he should be able to improve the sanitary condition of Gibraltar without exciting any discontent on the part of the inhabitants. One thing, my Lords, I will add, and it is this: that highly important as sanitation is (and no man feels the importance of it more than I do) there is something even more important, and that is the contentment of the inhabitants of our Colonies; and if I had to choose,—I should be very sorry to be placed in that dilemma,—between a perfect system of sanitation with discontent and an imperfect condition of sanitation with content, I should not hesitate to choose the latter.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, the noble Lord has answered almost every question that I had put on the Paper except with respect to the expense of the proposed tunnel, and also as to the period when the work will be commenced.
*LORD KNUTSFORD: As to the period when the work will be commenced some doubt has been thrown by the observations of the noble Earl opposite; but as regards the expense it is roughly estimated that the cost of the complete scheme of sewerage recommended by him will be £26,000 if carried to the east of the rock and £36,000 if carried to the southern outfall, that is Europa Point. The Colonial Engineer estimates the cost of the actual tunnelling at £2,954 for the experimental tunnel for a water supply; then after that tunnel is completed if the water should not be found there would be £8,125 to add to that to complete the tunnel to the eastern outfall; but it would be £22,950 for a tunnel to the southern outfall; and as I told the noble Lord opposite further Papers shall be presented as soon as they are completed.

GIBRALTAR DOCK.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords I will not detain the House at any length, but the question of which I have given notice is a question that I have repeatedly had the honour of bringing before the House, and I merely wish to refer to the number of times on which promises on the subject have been made by the Admiralty, which promises are still unfulfilled, and which I had hoped by this time would be in course of execution. I think it is now five years since the subject of the dock at Gibraltar was brought before both Houses of Parliament. By the First Lord of the Admiralty in the other House, and by my noble Friend, who I am quite aware is not responsible but who represents the Admiralty in this House, we have been told, first, that plans were under consideration, then that they were matured, then that part of the work was being carried out at private expense, and two years afterwards the noble Lord in this
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House gave a complete statement of the plans which were intended to be immediately executed; and he gave very satisfactory assurances that the works would meet the wishes of all those who were interested in naval matters, and also that the harbour, which is one great object I know with the naval authorities, would be greatly improved by the construction of the dock and the lengthening of the pier. My Lords, we have waited and waited, and I own myself, after all these promises, I cannot at all understand what reason there has been for this delay. The sole objection I may have had to the proposed tunnel was for fear it should defer these works; but I will not now at this period, and after so many attempts, dilate upon the immense advantages of it further than to say that I only wish the Prime Minister, both Houses of Parliament, and the country could realise for themselves the immense advantages which would accrue to the naval defences of this country if a dock were constructed at Gibraltar. I need not call to your Lordships' mind the recent occasions within the last few years when vessels of enormous value have been on the point of being lost, and would have been utterly destroyed for the Public Service, if there had not fortunately been the dock at Malta at hand. I allude to the "Sultan" and the "Victoria." Had either of those accidents happened a little further off—for instance where the battle of Trafalgar took place, and there had been no dock at Malta, I think those vessels must have been altogether lost to the Service. Your Lordships are aware that after the accident happened to the "Victoria" she had great difficulty in reaching Malta, a distance only of some six hundred to eight hundred miles; but, if the accident had happened at a distance of fourteen hundred or fifteen hundred miles, and the only resource had been to take that vessel home to England, or to dock her at Malta, I believe she would have been utterly ruined for the purposes of service. I wish the country could understand that when they regard the fleet as an insurance for the navigation of this country, they should recollect also that it is absolutely necessary that we should have a proper assurance for their safety, and that we can only get that by having docks within reach, as all other

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nations have who have valuable interests in the Mediterranean. All the other countries have docks spread all over the Mediterranean, and our forces are not so greatly superior to theirs; in fact I believe in one instance they are only equal to those of the greatest Naval Power out there; and, should any accident happen, we should be placed in an inferior condition in case of warfare, which it is utterly impossible to say may not at any time arise. I hope the noble Lord may be able to give some assurance that it is the intention of the present Government, should they, as I hope, continue in office, to resume the works at the earliest possible period.
LORD ELPHINSTONE: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount is scarcely correct in the wording of his question in speaking of the promised dock at Gibraltar. This question has been before the House very often and I have answered it very often; but I do not think I have ever committed the Government by making any promise. Indeed the last official utterance in either House of Parliament was by myself in March of last year, when I said—
"No Vote therefore was proposed in the Navy Estimates for this year, there being so many more pressing, and, as the Admiralty think, more important matters to be considered. As regards next year, we cannot at present forecast what provision should be made for a dock at Gibraltar."
That is not a promise. I do not want to lay any stress upon it, but my noble Friend's question would imply that the Government were committed, through me as their mouthpiece, to the construction of a dock. I am not at all prepared to deny that all naval officers fully admit the desirability of a dock being built at Gibraltar; and indeed the Admiralty are quite of that opinion too. They admit the desirability, if not the necessity, of building a dock there; but they are not prepared, and they do not think it is desirable, to commence the work until they are in a position to push it forward rapidly to a conclusion. At present we are engaged in a great number of works of an even more pressing nature, involving very large sums of money; at Portsmouth, for instance, we are constructing two large dry docks entailing very considerable expense. With regard to Gibraltar we have already taken a Vote to extend the new mole for about 600 feet. In all
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probability a large gap will be left between the extension and the present mole which will enable the 600 feet to be carried out to perhaps nearly 700 feet; and the object of that mole will be to endeavour to create some sort of circulation to carry off the accumulation of filth which has been referred to and is an undoubted nuisance in connection with Gibraltar, and from which we suffer terribly in the Navy; the filth on both sides of the new mole, where our ships have to lie in hot weather, is something abominable. That work is going to be carried on at once. And the noble Viscount will remember that the Committee appointed in 1889 recommended the lengthening of the new mole as part of the general scheme of the dock. I do not mean by that to commit myself, or to commit the Admiralty, to the construction of the dock; but that part of it, at any rate, must be undertaken at once.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My noble Friend is slightly mistaken, I think, in saying that there has been no promise; I think if he refers to the statement authorised by the Admiralty two years ago, not only was a full description of the proposed works laid before the House, but words were added that the works would be commenced immediately in the current year; and upon those grounds I think I have a perfect right to complain of the delay that has taken place.
LORD ELPHINSTONE: I still think the noble Viscount is mistaken in that, and I refer him again to the last official utterance in this House.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: I refer to two years ago.
LORD ELPHINSTONE: I will look back upon what has been said before.

CORONERS' DEPUTIES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 181.)
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(The Lord Herschell.) (No. 182.)
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (BLIND AND DEAF) BILL [H.L.]
Order for the House to be in Committee To-morrow discharged.
PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS [H.L.]
Ordered, That Standing Order No. 39 be suspended for the remainder of the Session in the case of Provisional Order Confirmation Bills originating in this House.
PARLIAMENTARY DEPOSITS AND BONDS BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
ALLOTMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
NATIONAL DEBT (CONVERSION OF EXCHEQUER BONDS) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
POST OFFICE ACT (1891) EXTENSION BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole house To-morrow.
TAXES (REGULATION OF REMUNERATION) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
CLERGY DISCIPLINE (IMMORALITY) BILL [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered (according to order); Some agreed to; One agreed to, with an Amendment, and consequential Amendments made to the Bill; and Bill returned to the Commons.
BILLS OF SALE BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICIARY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
COLONIAL STOCK ACT (1877) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order): Bills reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
House adjourned at ten minutes before Seven o'clock.